I am new here so I try to read everything that comes up. I so appreciate the diversity of opinions. It helps in so many ways.

While I agree that there are some people who don't really want to change IMHO, venting is NOT a bad thing. I am in a VENTING space right now.

For me, this is a safe place to try on different hats. For example; If I do <insert action> what is likely to happen? And, with the wealth of personal experiences of everyone here, I get REAL feedback. THis is helping me to decide which is my best plan of action. This is not to say that I agree with everything. THat is unrealistic. BUT, when people give you the GIFT of their experiences, IMO we all learn more about possibilities. I consider this forum to be brainstorming.

The definition of brainstorming is Problem -solving technique that can be used for planning purposes, risk identification, improvement efforts, and other project-related endeavors. Participants are invited to share their ideas in a group setting, where no disapproving verbal or nonverbal behaviors are permitted. The technique is designed to generate a large number of ideas by helping people to think creatively and allowing them to participate fully, without feeling inhibited or criticized by others.

A Marriage in Crisis is a painful and terrifying process to go through and everyone will react differently. I think it is the fight or flight scenario. Some people fight to regain or repair their marriage and some people need to fly away. Only they can decide what is right for them. And that is okay. In the end, we can only do what we are capable of doing. If some peole don't try, that is their decision. But, this forum is a perfect place to grow personally. That old adage what doesn't kill me, makes me stronger. NO matter the outcome.

And, no matter how much we all share the tragedies that we are in, there is always a lot left unsaid. So, we all have partial information about each others problems and it is up to the individual to pick and choose what works for them.

Hi Pep!! Well chere, I hope you already know I think you're fab! I tell folks on JFO to come over here and look for you all the time! I don't hang out on this board much....mainly because I think there are just a whole ton of great veterans here and I can do more good elsewhere. Thank you so much for all you do here, recovery and on the pregnancy board. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
I've had 2 learn patience because of the length of my M, the duration of the A, and... ...well, I can be dense sometimes (being a PhD in geology helps me figure ROCKs out pretty well, but it isn't all that useful in social interactions). I'm grateful that my flopping around didn't drive the best MBers away from my once very dramatic posts.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">To be honest there were times (early on) that I had to force myself not to post to you for awhile.... back in the days when you were making probably 50 or so posts a day... I wanted to hit you over your head with a moon rock so you would go to bed, get some rest and just STOP and breathe... That's about the time I invited you over for coffee... cos I wanted to make sure you were not suicidal! (I bet you did not know that!!!)

Your flopping around worried me because I thought you might endanger yourself ... if not directly, indirectly ... you couldn't work, you couldn't sleep, you couldn't stop talking ... it was like your brain was on fire.

See how far you've come!!!

((( My Friend 2 Long )))

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by star*fish:
Thank you so much for all you do here, recovery and on the pregnancy board.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OMG ... don't get me started on the Preg board!!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> There was just too much mischief going on there for me to ignore ... and the hurting ones would get themselves sucked into the angry vortex and lose their own recovery focus as the argueing would spin them down down down. It is a challenge for me to respond in ways that stop the back and forth yelling ... all the while turning off the desire of the intruders to keep responding... I wouldn't mind a little help, you game *Star*???

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have SO been there, as you probably remember. I think the thing I worry about is the implication that these people are "given up on" by the seasoned MBers. I don't think that's the case, even with Mel (though I'll let her speak for herself). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2long,

IF your W was meeting up with this OM on a weekend basis...and living with you during the week...would you "tolerate" that? Would you continue to Plan A ...or would your next course of action be Plan B?

I really think the ones that are actively "sharing" a spouse are NUTZ! That is what I would consider "enabling" that affair. When it reaches the point where the WS is spending every other night at the OW/OM place...and they just saunter back in the house when it suits them because they know that they can...it is time for something more drastic. I have a feeling that would have been intolerable to you...and PlanB would have been next.

I also don't think that you have EVER blasted someone for trying to reach out and help you. I do not recall you ever being testy with another poster who took the time to post to you. You have always accepted the help in the spirit it was intended...even if it was not to your liking. You have shown grace in the face of adversity...that's a fact.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Committed: How's your brother doing? I miss him. Please give him my regards. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He is doing good. He is in his new home...and he is dating a woman with 3 children. Remember, he had no children with his W of 14 years, so he is getting a full dose of it now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> His GF's 3 year old sure has him hopping...in addition to having stolen his heart.

I will give him your regards.

committed

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Sadfww:
(Part of my problem with posting to lemonman is that I see so much of my father and my father's actions in him- so that is my personal bias which means that I should probably bow out of this thread.)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think that is a great reason for you to continue to post to LM.... You will become increasingly aware of your personal peccadillos and thus learn how to protect yourself against them!!!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Pep

Short TJ....

You know pep...I've gone over there many times (I read pretty often)...and because I have never had that experience, and the misery index is so high...I ofen wonder if I should say anything. It's the one place I find myself able to feel less "detached" and less objective...so I guess that means I need to go huh?...afterall, when I'm coaching full time...I'm going to come face to face with this issue. hahhahahhaha <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I'll see you there. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Pep:

Oh yes, I remember it well... ...and yes, I was aware of your motives! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Seriously, I am MORE aware of that period of time and the danger ir represented NOW than I was then, even if I was somewhat aware at the time. I think that DLee's going through much the same 2rmoil right now, and so I'm EXTREMELY RELIEVED that people like you, JL, Thos and Cerri have posted 2 him.

I was OH SO EMOTIONALLY FUSED 2 my W. Had been for so long that, looking back on it now, I can't imagine that SOMETHING traumatic, like infidelity, wouldn't have happened even2ally 2 shatter that world view. And now, I'm glad that it did. Not "glad" that my W had an A, but grateful for the oppor2nity I wouldn't have otherwise had. But, as you know, it 2k a VERY LONG TIME 2 get out of the victim mode so that I could see the value of the oppor2nity I was presented.

I was just looking at PM this morning, trying 2 find something 2 post 2 DLee, and came across this simple definition of Differentiation that I hadn't thought about in a long time (I'd been thinking, while reading that, that differentiation is a difficult concept 2 understand):

"Differentiation involves balancing two basic life forces: the drive for individuality and the drive for togetherness. *Individuality* propels us to follow our own directives, to be on our own, to create a unique identity. *Togetherness* pushes us to follow the directives of others, to be part of the group. When these two life forces for individuality and togetherness are expressed in balanced, healthy ways, the result is a meaningful relationship that doesn't deteriorate into emotional fusion. Giving up your individuality to be together is as defeating in the long run as giving up your relationship to maintain your individuality. Either way, you end up being less of a person with less of a relationship."

I was "less of a person" for most of my M because I could be "destroyed" by my W's affections being directed elsewhere. I'm no longer devastated by it, even though our M hasn't recovered as yet. There is still pain, but I wouldn't trade the pain for the illusion of comfort again.

-ol' 2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by star*fish:
<strong> Short TJ....

You know pep...I've gone over there many times (I read pretty often)...and because I have never had that experience, and the misery index is so high...I ofen wonder if I should say anything. It's the one place I find myself able to feel less "detached" and less objective...so I guess that means I need to go huh?...afterall, when I'm coaching full time...I'm going to come face to face with this issue. hahhahahhaha <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I'll see you there. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yahoooooo <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> *happy dance*

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

There is still pain, but I wouldn't trade the pain for the illusion of comfort again.

cool man... really <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Pep

Committed:

Thanks for your very kind thoughts.!

"and he is dating a woman with 3 children. Remember, he had no children with his W of 14 years, so he is getting a full dose of it now. His GF's 3 year old sure has him hopping...in addition to having stolen his heart.'

I smiled big and wide when I read this! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

just pic2ring ol' hcii hopping for the 3yr old. So COOL!

-ol' 2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>

I have SO been there, as you probably remember. I think the thing I worry about is the implication that these people are "given up on" by the seasoned MBers. I don't think that's the case, even with Mel (though I'll let her speak for herself).

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2Long, I don't think they are given up on by MBers and I am sorry I gave that impression. However, we have to admit that some are not here to resolve their situation, they are here for sympathy and perserving the status quo. And that's ok. We have MBers here who all have different things to offer. Some are really good at patiently listening to vents and offering sympathy if that is all the person wants. I am not and I realize my limitations.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Sadfww:
<strong>QUOTE]Objectively assessing and judging a situation - and offering your perspective- are different then judging a person, Melody.

This is what I was speaking to:

Quote from lemonman

"I have no right to judge people for doing this. Sometimes it takes every fibre of my being not to want to scream and yell at someone for how stupid and wimpoy and how much of a doormat they are looking like. It is quite comical at times for me to see my reactions to certain posts.....but I digress.......I am trying to get better at not judging these folks no matter how pathetically sad there strategis are.. It is noy my right to tell them this and I am gettgin better everyday."

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sad, the example that you showed has nothing to do with "judging" [of which there is nothing wrong, we are supposed to judge] but rather with getting irate and raging at people. I agree that it helps no one to rage at folks, but that is different from "judging."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Sadfww:
<strong>QUOTE]Objectively assessing and judging a situation - and offering your perspective- are different then judging a person, Melody.

This is what I was speaking to:

Quote from lemonman

"I have no right to judge people for doing this. Sometimes it takes every fibre of my being not to want to scream and yell at someone for how stupid and wimpoy and how much of a doormat they are looking like. It is quite comical at times for me to see my reactions to certain posts.....but I digress.......I am trying to get better at not judging these folks no matter how pathetically sad there strategis are.. It is noy my right to tell them this and I am gettgin better everyday."

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sad, the example that you showed has nothing to do with "judging" [of which there is nothing wrong, we are supposed to judge] but rather with getting irate and raging at people. I agree that it helps no one to rage at folks, but that is different from "judging." </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Melody: definition of judge:

[v] form an opinion of or pass judgment on

"You look stupid, wimpy and like a doormat" is a judgement.

If you would rather I reword what I said- to tell him not to rage or be irate I can do that. I think judge, however, is an accurate word.

Sad, I know what it means to judge. What I am saying is the issue at hand is NOT judging, which all thinking folks do every day, but in tactless execution of said judgments. There is nothing wrong with judging, however, there is much wrong with using those judgments to hurt people, and that is what lemonman was talking about.

If someone really IS wimpy, there is nothing wrong with thinking that if it is the truth, it only becomes wrong if one lambasts the person with that knowledge. And there is nothing wrong with telling the person he is being wimpy, if the situation calls for it, in a tactful, loving way.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong> Sad, I know what it means to judge. What I am saying is the issue at hand is NOT judging, which all thinking folks do every day, but in tactless execution of said judgments. There is nothing wrong with judging, however, there is much wrong with using those judgments to hurt people, and that is what lemonman was talking about.

If someone really IS wimpy, there is nothing wrong with thinking that if it is the truth, it only becomes wrong if one lambasts the person with that knowledge. And there is nothing wrong with telling the person he is being wimpy, if the situation calls for it, in a tactful, loving way. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Melody- whether or not someone really IS wimpy- is a matter of judgement (or opinion). From my perspective I think it is wrong to *judge* someone based on their willingness to be finished with a relationship- or not- when you have not walked in their shoes.

As you know, there is such a thing as having good judgement and having bad judgement. Perhaps it doesn't make a difference to the outside world whether your judgement is good or bad until you do something with it as you pointed out. And I think you are right that your personal judgements about someone else's actions should be shared in a tactful loving way.

The point, however, that I was trying to make to lemonman is that he really SHOULDN'T be judging the people here (not the actions- the people) for their choices in these types of situations. I could be wrong, (I expressed to Pep above that I am overly biased here as lemonman's words and story remind me too much of my father) but my perception after reading a number of his posts is that he felt that he was *better* then quite a few of the posters here. - I guess that was my judgement! Yes, I guess I was judging HIM - and judging HIS judgement as bad judgement- in decision and execution.

Hmmm...does this make any sense at all? If not- I'm sorry. This was an interesting discussion- or at least I think so- and I thank you for pushing back at me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Sadfww:
<strong> Melody- whether or not someone really IS wimpy- is a matter of judgement (or opinion). From my perspective I think it is wrong to *judge* someone based on their willingness to be finished with a relationship- or not- when you have not walked in their shoes.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sad, is that your judgment?

You are judging when you say judging is wrong. Your premise is self refuting. You can't tell lemon that he is wrong for telling someone they are wrong, without contradicting yourself. If no one can judge, as you aver, then YOU cannot judge. Especially since you have not "walked in his shoes."

The world would be a very confusing place if we didn't judge. Judging means forming an opinion about reality and one really can't function without doing it every day.

Words do have meanings [such as wimpy] and we might disagree about what constitutes these meanings, but that does not disqualify the meaning, much less mean we shouldn't judge. We must judge, good or bad, in order to live.

I would suggest that its worse to BE wimpy than it is to say someone is wimpy. There are times when the most compassionate thing you can do is tell your friend the truth.

We don't have to "walk in one's shoes" to know the meaning of words. We don't have to "walk in ones shoes" to be able to identify behavior. When I see evidence of a murder, I don't have to walk in his shoes to be able to judge that he is a murderer.

It helps no one to avoid judgments, it helps us make decisions and guides us. Without judgements, we are simply groping around blindly in the twilight zone running away from reality.

<small>[ October 23, 2004, 05:20 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Sadfww:
<strong> Melody- whether or not someone really IS wimpy- is a matter of judgement (or opinion). From my perspective I think it is wrong to *judge* someone based on their willingness to be finished with a relationship- or not- when you have not walked in their shoes.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sad, is that your judgment?

You are judging when you say judging is wrong. Your premise is self refuting. You can't tell lemon that he is wrong for telling someone they are wrong, without contradicting yourself. If no one can judge, as you aver, then YOU cannot judge. Especially since you have not "walked in his shoes."

The world would be a very confusing place if we didn't judge. Judging means forming an opinion about reality and one really can't function without doing it every day.

Words do have meanings [such as wimpy] and we might disagree about what constitutes these meanings, but that does not disqualify the meaning, much less mean we shouldn't judge. We must judge, good or bad, in order to live.

I would suggest that its worse to BE wimpy than it is to say someone is wimpy. There are times when the most compassionate thing you can do is tell your friend the truth.

We don't have to "walk in one's shoes" to know the meaning of words. We don't have to "walk in ones shoes" to be able to identify behavior. When I see evidence of a murder, I don't have to walk in his shoes to be able to judge that he is a murderer.

It helps no one to avoid judgments, it helps us make decisions and guides us. Without judgements, we are simply groping around blindly in the twilight zone running away from reality. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Melody- did you read this?

As you know, there is such a thing as having good judgement and having bad judgement. Perhaps it doesn't make a difference to the outside world whether your judgement is good or bad until you do something with it as you pointed out. And I think you are right that your personal judgements about someone else's actions should be shared in a tactful loving way.

The point, however, that I was trying to make to lemonman is that he really SHOULDN'T be judging the people here (not the actions- the people) for their choices in these types of situations. I could be wrong, (I expressed to Pep above that I am overly biased here as lemonman's words and story remind me too much of my father) but my perception after reading a number of his posts is that he felt that he was *better* then quite a few of the posters here. - I guess that was my judgement! Yes, I guess I was judging HIM - and judging HIS judgement as bad judgement- in decision and execution.

Sad, yes I did; 2 or 3 times. And it is my assertion that it is a bad judgement to say that judging is wrong, [especially when you are doing that very thing] for all the reasons I gave.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong> [QUOTE]
I would suggest that its worse to BE wimpy than it is to say someone is wimpy. There are times when the most compassionate thing you can do is tell your friend the truth.

We don't have to "walk in one's shoes" to know the meaning of words. We don't have to "walk in ones shoes" to be able to identify behavior. When I see evidence of a murder, I don't have to walk in his shoes to be able to judge that he is a murderer.

It helps no one to avoid judgments, it helps us make decisions and guides us. Without judgements, we are simply groping around blindly in the twilight zone running away from reality. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, Melody- it depends on how WELL you judge. If you think it is helpful to judge- and to share your judgement, then you obviously think that your judgement is correct. I disagree that lemonman's judgement is correct. And yes - that is MY judgement.

Additionally, evidence that you think supports a particular supposition - in the end can be misleading.. To see evidence of murder is NOT necessarily to know WHO murdered who- what the reason was- or whether it was really murder- or suicide.

The point I was trying to make was that lemonman was jumping to conclusions - and quite often NOT in a loving tactful way- without all of the facts to back him up.