</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Sadfww:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong> [QUOTE]
I would suggest that its worse to BE wimpy than it is to say someone is wimpy. There are times when the most compassionate thing you can do is tell your friend the truth.

We don't have to "walk in one's shoes" to know the meaning of words. We don't have to "walk in ones shoes" to be able to identify behavior. When I see evidence of a murder, I don't have to walk in his shoes to be able to judge that he is a murderer.

It helps no one to avoid judgments, it helps us make decisions and guides us. Without judgements, we are simply groping around blindly in the twilight zone running away from reality. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, Melody- it depends on how WELL you judge. If you think it is helpful to judge- and to share your judgement, then you obviously think that your judgement is correct. I disagree that lemonman's judgement is correct. And yes - that is MY judgement.

Additionally, evidence that you think supports a particular supposition - in the end can be misleading.. To see evidence of murder is NOT necessarily to know WHO murdered who- what the reason was- or whether it was really murder- or suicide.

The point I was trying to make was that lemonman was jumping to conclusions - and quite often NOT in a loving tactful way- without all of the facts to back him up. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">don't feel that you need to respond to this. We clearly disagree- and that's ok.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Sadfww:
<strong>

The point I was trying to make was that lemonman was jumping to conclusions - and quite often NOT in a loving tactful way- without all of the facts to back him up. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ok, now we are getting somewhere, Sad. You have nothing against judgments, per se, but against hastily formed judgments. I agree that one shouldn't make judgments without sufficient evidence. Of course that is not a case against judgments, but rather hasty conclusions. I gotcha now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Sadfww:
<strong>

The point I was trying to make was that lemonman was jumping to conclusions - and quite often NOT in a loving tactful way- without all of the facts to back him up. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ok, now we are getting somewhere, Sad. You have nothing against judgments, per se, but against hastily formed judgments. I agree that one shouldn't make judgments without sufficient evidence. Of course that is not a case against judgments, but rather hasty conclusions. I gotcha now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for hanging in there with me Melody... I don't think I've had this much trouble expressing myself in a long time.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Must be jet lag.

Yes- when it comes down to it- that is what I have a problem with. I'll cave in on the "judgement" bit... you got it right in one. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ October 23, 2004, 07:47 PM: Message edited by: Sadfww ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Sadfww:
(Part of my problem with posting to lemonman is that I see so much of my father and my father's actions in him- so that is my personal bias which means that I should probably bow out of this thread.)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think that is a great reason for you to continue to post to LM.... You will become increasingly aware of your personal peccadillos and thus learn how to protect yourself against them!!!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Pep </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">lalala

I am "fishing" for a response ... lalala

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Sadfww:
(Part of my problem with posting to lemonman is that I see so much of my father and my father's actions in him- so that is my personal bias which means that I should probably bow out of this thread.)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think that is a great reason for you to continue to post to LM.... You will become increasingly aware of your personal peccadillos and thus learn how to protect yourself against them!!!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Pep </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">lalala

I am "fishing" for a response ... lalala

Pep </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pep- I woke up this afternoon- and my response had been stolen- and replaced with an exact duplicate....by YOU! so feel free to put words in my mouth <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

bwhahahahaaaa! good one, Sad! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Sadfww:

With all due respect, I think you are being a hypocrite on this thread. I can't really say that any nicer to you.

Melody thank you for explaining things to her much better than I could do.

I never said or intimated that I was better than anyone else, obviously NOT, as I am here on this board along with everyone else struggling to make sense of all of this $hit in my life. I think for whatever reason yoo displaced all of your anger towards your father to me ....???? You have read 20 some posts from me, you don't know me and have not lived in my shoes as a BS. You are putting me and JUDGING me in the same light as your father who obviously has hurt you greatly. You are doing to me what you chastised me for doing. PLEASE LOOK IN THE MIRROR !!!!!!!!!!NOW THAT IS HYPOCRITICAL.

Now another thing, I will reaffrim what I said before..........I WOULD NEVER CHEAT ON MY WIFE....Does that make me a better person than a WS......NO, it is just a fact. I don't know your story (BS or WS?) but obviously you are sensitive to my statement, so what gives??? As someone else said on this board, THAT IS A DECISION I CAN MAKE and have full control of. There is NOTHING that would make me cheat on my wife. Maybe my art of the written word is not as good as yours and I come off as not being kind enough or too judgemental, but as I have always disclaimed in my posts.....THESE ARE MY OPINIONS. They are no better or worse than yours. Just because you don't like them doesn't mean they are wrong (or right). PLease look in the mirror first before continuing to post on this thread against me. This is a message board and hence DIFFERENT VIEWS AND OPINIONS should be tolerated and encouraged. DO we all want a stepford community here??? Is that what you think would be helpful??? I may stand literally alone in some of my opinions on here (and that is ok, I am a big boy) BUT I think that this is good for this board. I will *try* and sound less "judgemental" in my posts, but the reality of this is that you are not gonna agree with alot of my opinions so they are going to sound judgemental to you. This is something that you will need to get over. I am not your father, please do not displace your anger towards him to me, I haven't done "enough" to you to warrant that. Good day to you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

<small>[ October 23, 2004, 09:38 PM: Message edited by: lemonman ]</small>

I'm a latecomer to this thread, and really I only have two things to comment on.

LemonHead, you're absolutely right that the doormat version of Plan A is a terrible travesty. It causes all kinds of trouble and pain. You've captured pretty darned well one of the main criticisms of the MB concepts in PRACTICE. In theory, Plan A is, in the (paraphrased) words of Willard Harley, a negotiating strategy that you implement to end the affair. It involves direct negotiations, creating a positive environment in the marriage, and ROCKING THE BOAT. Hard. Exposure and confrontation will almost certainly make the WP angry. However, if you want to save your marriage, it's very important.

Plan A is also of limited duration. The Harleys recommend 3 months for women and 6 months for men. SYMC recommends an even shorter time frame than that.

Plan A -can- work. But it's not certain to work. Marriages that include infidelity are at terrible risk and many, many of them don't survive. The goal is to do everything you can that could legitimately save your marriage. (Dr. Harley is not a pro-marriage guy, though he does this stuff for a living. He states pretty clearly that this stuff is only for people who decide that they want to save their marriages. If not, there are other remedies. The MB boards, on the other hand, are highly pro-marriage.)

The other thing I want to say is to Noodle. And that's just this: You spoke the words that are utterly true in my case, as well. For years, I'd been living with the invisible threat of "put up with this or I will leave." I didn't even consciously know that it was there, but it affected everything that I did. We were both, because of it, caught in the trap of sacrifice. Sacrifice, as a way of life and a steady diet within a marriage, really sucks. It's simply not sustainable, no matter what that stereotypical perfect mother once said.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now another thing, I will reaffrim what I said before..........I WOULD NEVER CHEAT ON MY WIFE</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I feel the same way, but I will explain. I am fully capable of having sex with another woman (other than my wife). In fact, at times I feel it might be lovely. The problem is that one needs to use deception to accomplish that goal. The deception and the lying is a problem. Actual sex with another person of the opposite gender is possible, however it cannot be done without being deceitful.

I feel the same way Stanley does.

I may be capable of falling in love with another but am incapable of lying, so that would put a damper on any fun I may have, knowing that I would have to fess up, also knowing that I was deceiving my loved one.

No could do, I am definately the type of person that would have to divorse first.

I am incapable of deception and always will be, this I know. The act of destroying another with a lie is something that not everyone is capable of.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lemonman:
<strong> Sadfww:

With all due respect, I think you are being a hypocrite on this thread. I can't really say that any nicer to you.

Melody thank you for explaining things to her much better than I could do.

I never said or intimated that I was better than anyone else, obviously NOT, as I am here on this board along with everyone else struggling to make sense of all of this $hit in my life. I think for whatever reason yoo displaced all of your anger towards your father to me ....???? You have read 20 some posts from me, you don't know me and have not lived in my shoes as a BS. You are putting me and JUDGING me in the same light as your father who obviously has hurt you greatly. You are doing to me what you chastised me for doing. PLEASE LOOK IN THE MIRROR !!!!!!!!!!NOW THAT IS HYPOCRITICAL.

Now another thing, I will reaffrim what I said before..........I WOULD NEVER CHEAT ON MY WIFE....Does that make me a better person than a WS......NO, it is just a fact. I don't know your story (BS or WS?) but obviously you are sensitive to my statement, so what gives??? As someone else said on this board, THAT IS A DECISION I CAN MAKE and have full control of. There is NOTHING that would make me cheat on my wife. Maybe my art of the written word is not as good as yours and I come off as not being kind enough or too judgemental, but as I have always disclaimed in my posts.....THESE ARE MY OPINIONS. They are no better or worse than yours. Just because you don't like them doesn't mean they are wrong (or right). PLease look in the mirror first before continuing to post on this thread against me. This is a message board and hence DIFFERENT VIEWS AND OPINIONS should be tolerated and encouraged. DO we all want a stepford community here??? Is that what you think would be helpful??? I may stand literally alone in some of my opinions on here (and that is ok, I am a big boy) BUT I think that this is good for this board. I will *try* and sound less "judgemental" in my posts, but the reality of this is that you are not gonna agree with alot of my opinions so they are going to sound judgemental to you. This is something that you will need to get over. I am not your father, please do not displace your anger towards him to me, I haven't done "enough" to you to warrant that. Good day to you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LM- I want to extend the olive branch to you. You are right- I did immediately and inappropriately extend a lot of the anger I have towards my father on you. I DON'T agree with many of the posts that you have made here- in tone and in opinion- but I was wrong to lambast you in the manner in which I did.

As far as the cheating on another comment- I had hoped that I had expressed myself better when I explained myself to Pep above. I do understand that many would never choose to be unfaithful. My point (echoing Dr. Harley) was that to think that you are not CAPABLE of it is dangerous as you will not fully guard yourself. Enough said about that.

Yes, I think diverse viewpoints are always helpful- if nothing else, they make us all think. I admit that I was incensed at the tone of some of your posts- however, I apologize to you for the tone of my posts here.

So...can you help me grow from this experience? Tell me your story- or point me towards it. I'd be happy to point you toward my own if you have any interest.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pep- I woke up this afternoon- and my response had been stolen- and replaced with an exact duplicate....by YOU! so feel free to put words in my mouth <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This was THE most awesomely PERFECT response to my nonsense ....ever.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Pep

Didn't she do good, Pep?? I about spewed my Pepsi when I saw that! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />