Myrta you are Stanley's wife, I got it. I am still a newbie around here.

My wife would want to reconcile now..............BUT that is after destroying me for 1 year with another realtionship and ruining her name and family in the process. There was a time that I would have done anything for her (including leaving medicine) and actually hVW done many of the pride swallowing, self humilaiting, degrading things that I THINK many in here do in the nake of love and restoring their marriage. I certainly lost a lot of respect in my profession and social netwok of frineds for doing all of this. The fact is I loved my wife and I thought it was worth it....I WAS WRONG. It was only after I really began to heal from all of this and lose my co-dependance did she really want me back. I think part of this is the "I want what I can't have" thinking. But, Stan, to answer your quaetion I could be back with her right now, but that is not what my head or more importantly my heart needs. I will always love my wife.....BUT the big diiference that I think many on here fail to realize is that I love the person she WAS, and the relationship we HAD.. The affair and all of the dishonesty changes that marriage forver. It can never truly be fixed, I think you alm,ost just have to get a whole new one, and that means start from Step ONE.....back to dating, back to separate houses, etc... Start completely from scratch to get it right. So called "Recoveries" on here are IMO very very suspect. The many pained individuals you see on here fighting and dying for their marriages are in love for the memory of what the OP was and the marriage WAS.....not the reality that it is. That is why I see so many false recoveries on here. They are so hell bent on getting the WS back that they fail to see that that person and marriage is sometimes (many times actually) NEVER RECOVERED, It doesn't really exist anymore. There ofcourse is always the chance for a NEW marriage, but short of that it is my belief that many "so called recoveries" are not really recoveries and are probably affairs waiting to happen again. Once again as a legal disclaimer, these are my opinions only. I figure there is a lynching mob ready to take me out soon. If my account becomes banned soon, you can assure that is why I am not here posting anymore.

lEMONHEAD- YES, I am Stanley's wife. By the way I do like your honesty to, you dont like to bull.... like others like to do here.
What you are saying is very true, the marriage that we had before is never coming back. The woman that I was before the affair, does not exist anymore. But in its place is a different woman, that will bring new perspective to our marriage. My husband is a completely different man. He looks like he had plastic surgery <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> , because this so called "sperm competition" has him extremely rejuvenated. Yes. the affair was a horrible thing to go thru, but I think it is bringing lots of good to our relationship. He sees me in a different light, yes, sometimes he sees me as a differnt woman, but I think that is good too, because he is very curious about me. He is very interested in me as a woman, before, "I was just there". He is more interested in what I have to say now, before he really did not listened to me too much. Us women, we like our man to be very interested, in love, in lust with us all the time, not only when you want to have sex. We need to feel desired, wanted, valued!
I think our marriage will eventually become a much better that what it was before the affair. Because we are making the effort, because we want it to be better, because we need each othere, because we have five children (4 adult 1 child) that would literarry die if we would divorce.
But above all, because despite the affair, WE LOVE EACH OTHER!!!
And the only thing that we are doing "by the book" is NO contact, and we have more communication. I think your instincts will tell you what will work for you or not. Because everyone is different, and everyone thinks differently.
I hope you dont become a bitter person, because of your experience with your wife, like "others" here. YOu are still very young, and you can start over again if not with your wife with someone else. But if you go back to her, do it, because you really forgive her and you love her.
Dont do it for any other reason. It does not matter what anyone says, do it because you love her and she loves you.
Take care
Myrta

Myrta:

Sadly it had to take an affair to bring out all of these great attributes in youselves and now hopefully you can mesh them as one in a new marriage that gives you both what want and deserve. I think this is a reason why I even frequented this site. To me this is not a marriage builders site, it should be called married recovery site. The fact is that all of us whether we are BS or WS, we all need healing and we all need to feel loved and given hope for ourselves. That is how I have interpreted it to help me. My needs and situation are different from somebody elses and that is what makes this community so good. It helps a lot of people get the support they need for whatever they want......Marriage, self, etc,,,. I love this site for what it has done for my growth as a person and for helping me solve the puzzle of why and how my marriage went wrong. Those of us who don't learn from our pasts are destined to relive them again.

<small>[ October 24, 2004, 11:18 PM: Message edited by: lemonman ]</small>

I hope that you keep posting lemmonman..because I agree with a great deal of what you say..I'd actually like to look further into this, if you wouldn't mind taking it to a new thread so as not to hijack?

--Noodle

Yes, I agree. BobPure, please forgive me for assissing in threadjacking your thread. We will move it to a more appropiate heading. Sorry.

Well I have been well and truly threadjacked ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

* SadFWW thanks for the kudos , but really I'm just a sad bloke trying to fashion some happy out of all the pain for my family, FWW and myself, like all the others.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Having said that, however, it takes time for the pretend *love* to completely go by the wayside- and part of that is the difficulty many of us have in admitting to ourselves how very wrong we were. Once we can get to the point that we can admit to ourselves that the *love* we believed is not (and never was) real love- the romantic love we have for our spouses can return....but even that takes time as that is the time as well that guilt, sadness and shame seem to envelope our very being.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is very interesting. My FWW has not yet admitted how very wrong she was. She is sorry for the pain she caused, I believe that truly, but still doesn't view the A as an evil thing. I believe she thinks she genuinely met the second great love of her life and despite the FACTS of the case ( OM lied to her, refused to leave his GF, serial divorcee, trail of estranged wives and kids etc etc) still thinks he is a lovely man she could of been happy with for the rest of her life. Right now she is dutifully making the best of a bad job with me I think.

It is very interesting to me that you reached a point where you could not deny the facts about your affair to yourself any more given time. I do not want my FWW to be wracked with "guilt, sadness and shame" - I love her, why would I want her to hurt ? - but I DO want her to interpret the facts in a non-lovesick way. Even if we do not manage to recover our marriage I do not want to lose her to a fantasy.

It seems that in time, with my love and support, she will reach that point where reality bites and I will need to be strong for her. We can see what 'love' we can build from that point I think. Thanks sadFWW. Very insightful.

* Chackler I note that you ar eearly on in your recovery also. I agree that there is a huge difference between the long-term love of a husband and a wie and the electricity of a new relationship. It's clear that the latter is one reason why stable married folks choose to press on with highly destructive affairs - because they may not have felt those sensations for years and they are overpoweringly good at the time.

But I would comment that many or several of the REAL recoveries on this board like KiwiJs ( Jen), KY or MelodyLane all report a return to and a sustaining of genuine romantic love and attraction for their spouses. The recovery from the A made both spouses skilled in filling each others love banks and so 'love' is restored as well as the 'mature' love married folks can enjoy. I guess this is why it is said that recovered marriages can be better than ever ! You can't have the frisson of naughtiness than an affair offers, nor the thrill of learning a new personal history of a partner like in an affair but there is no need to settle for boringness, it seems. Maybe we can both look forward to that as our marriages recover !

I know FWW is still missing OM. That is very hurtful to me, but I have to live with it. How she can still not see beyond her obsession with this man and look to the facts about him I just can't understand.

FWW has a picture of OM and her togther at the tournament where there EA escalated in her bedside table in a Karate magazine. I won't throw it out - what right have I to do that ?I do not want to manacle her to me.
She must want to throw it out but I can only imagine that having it there will slow recovery down if she looks.

Thanks for your insight chackler !

* KiwiJ - Jen I can wait a year or so if we get where you are !I wish the cynics could get inside yours and your Geordie old feller's heads for a while to see how recovery CAN work. {{{jen}}}

Any other FWWs care to comment please ?

* Lemonman, Stanley - I have a hope, based on real examples, that Marriages can be rebuilt after affaors to a level of love, enjoyment and sustainability that surpasses the pre-affair marriage.
I choose to work on my marriage hoping that it might have hope for being one of those wonderful marriages. Right now I don't 'feel' it will, but then again I didn't 'feel' my FWW would ever stay with me, the affair would end or I would ever be able to enjoy SF with my FWW again. I hope, supported by evidence, that my M can be great.

Not everyone should try this - its been emotionally draining for me, and I have no indication of eventual success even yet - but I want to give my marriage the best shot at success I can. I love my FWW, I believe our best chance at happiness is together and right now its all on my shoulders.

Please study these boards for the many examples where folks have used MB to recovery wonderful lives together from the pieces of affairs.

BOB PURE--You sound like such sensitive man, thats so romantic.! Iam so sure you will eventually have the marriage that you are longing for. Your wife will eventually realize what a great guy you are and what a jerk the other one was and still is.
It is too soon for your marriage to be where you want it to be. Just like mine is too. But my husband and I are confident in believing that ours will be a happy ending too.
Dont feel bad because your wife still thinks about the OM. It is natural for her to think about him still, I do think about my OM too. But I think about him differently than before, I see him in a different light now. I am not saying that I see him as a horrible human being, but I see him as a person with many flaws that I would not like my husband to have. And I am also very sure that she knows she did wrong and she is very sorry for all the pain she has caused you and herself too. Trust me, I wish I could back in time, and do things differnt now.
Just hang in there and keep on loving your wife. She will eventually be veryloving and receptive to you.
Take care
Myrta

Myrta
Thanks ! Its very early on in our recovery you are right. We won't know for some months if we can rescue our marriage. I'm going to do all I can to do so though.

I am not sure what my FWW thinks of OM right now. She certainly loved him with all her heart BUT OM dumped her a month ago. We had a meal the day after he dumped her on the phone and she asked if I still loved her. I replied yes. SHE replied "good. Somebody has to". She did not enlighten me further but OM GF called me and told me about the call. FWW called OM and asked where she stood. OM said he didn't care where as long as it wasn't in his life.

I hope that FWW knows OM doesn't love her and never has, although I know that is painful.

Thanks again myrta. and good luck in your own recovery!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Bob Pure:
FWW called OM and asked where she stood. OM said he didn't care where as long as it wasn't in his life.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As cruel as this may have sounded to your W's ears at the time ... it was the kindest act OM could have bestowed on your wife... a final difinitive answer ... an answer which left no room for doubt or misunderstanding.

What a great gift OM (finally) gave your W after dragging her into the mud for so long.

It's far better to know than not know ... no fence-sitting in that answer.

Pep

Bob,

I have two things to tell you that I think are fairly important:

1) KNOWING
Have you ever heard people say, "You will just KNOW when you are ready to divorce?" and people who have not been there wonder, "HOW DO YOU KNOW?? What is this mysterious knowing?" Well there comes a day when you can't fool yourself anymore--you "know." Maybe you stop the denial and accept the plain truth right in front of you...or maybe you come to a point where you just can't convince yourself anymore...or maybe (like it was for me) you reach a point where you made yourself a promise and that line was crossed again and you "know" that you can not trust YOURSELF.

I believe it is somewhat similiar for a WS. It may not be all in one day or suddenly, but there does come a point at which WS just stops the denial. With some of their heart and some of their ego, they want the OP to be an honorable, kind, gentle soul worthy of their love and devotion...because if the OP really is the sneaky snake that the facts seem to indicate, then how could they have left home, family, commitments for someone like that? See? There's a little...well...pleasant denial in thinking that the A was a growing experience and positive. There's also a hint of "saving face" if the A was something that they "had to do" in order to grow as a person and become more spiritually mature.

But eventually, the WS can "know" because they stop the denial. OP really was deceptive. OP really did use me. OP really was not thinking of me at all. OP did not find me valuable. OP did not ACT in ways that were loving.

And do you remember the day, Bob, when I wrote to you about mourning the loss of your illusion of your marriage? How that shook your foundation and hurt so much, because you lost what you thought you had and never had? Well, so it is for WS. At the time that they "know"--they lose their illusion of what they thought they had. It may seem to you like another withdrawal because the A no longer looks like Cinderella's castle, but like the dark, murky hole that it really was. Seeing that can be VERY HARD.

2) Don't measure your recovery based on certain events happening or not happening.
I made this mistake myself. I thought our original marriage vows were broken so that if we were "in recovery" we should renew our vows. Now, that makes completely logical sense, because to me...I would not renew my vows if I did not love the person, commit to the person, and mean every word I said! For years my exH would tell me, "I'll do it when I'm ready" or "I have a plan" or other little things to hint that he was doing something but now was not the right time. Of course, looking back on it now, I have discovered that he did not want to renew because he was still involved in cybersex and email affairs! But back then, I didn't know that! Anyway, finally one day I threw out some of the stuff I had been collecting for a renewal ceremony because I gave up (to be honest)--it wasn't going to happen, so I gave up.

Naturally within a couple months he arranged a chapel in Vegas to renew our vows, and to me this was a BIG DEAL! I thought "Finally we are renewing what has been destroyed for so long!!" and I thought he was finally saying that he was committing to ME for life and loved ME!

Sadly, I was wrong. He effectively just did it to shut me up. In fact, the night of our vow renewal, he yelled at the kids, was angry with me, and stormed off to be alone (probably because he didn't really want to be there)! I was STUNNED at that behavior, wondering how a man could make vows to love me all the days of my life, and then in a few hours turn around and just leave me in Vegas.

After that, I realized that recovery is not based on "renewing vows" or "burning letters" or "destroying triggers"--recovery is within US. It is recovering our own self-worth, learning how to have an equal partnership, learning how to respect each other boundaries, learning how to meet emotional needs and ask for what we need, learning how to avoid lovebusters, allowing both our Giver and Taker to be present in healthy ways...it is recovering US--ourselves and our marriages--not "vows" "burning" or other stuff.

If your FWW is ACTING like she is making progress in recovery, and you are ACTING like you are making progress in recovery...then she may just forget about those photos, CD's and letters and so might you! It is in the day-to-day stuff, Bob, not the grandiose gesture.

Otherwise, some day she may do the grandiose gesture just to shut you up, and not feel it one bit. Otherwise, she may refuse to do the grandiose gesture just because she was making progress in feeling love toward you and you kept bugging her about the d*mned letters!

Just a word from the wise!


CJ

Hi folks.

I normally stay out of what if/why discussions, but a couple of comments were made that I had to take issue with.

First of all, I believe that affairs are evil/wrong/unacceptable/sin. As such, they have no redeeming value. Since nothing good can come from an affair, all emotions toward the other person as a result of the affair are null and void. In my mind, they are as empty as a fart and just as unpleasant.

I think I find the 'pining' for the other person is the most disgusting, self centered, removed from reality and childish behavior I can imagine. Any remembrance of the other person as anything other than a mechanism for marital pain and destruction is to actively embrace a lie. The feelings of fondness and love for the outside person are a lie and should be viewed with great disdain by the wayward spouse.

Any claim to good coming from an affair in the form of marital improvements is to deny the truth that the marriage could have been improved much more effectively BEFORE the affair. Anything after is simply an attempt at repair.

Wayward spouses that return to a marriage thinking that what they have done has any value above absolute zero is believing a lie, and has simply not seen the truth, or worse, is actively denying the truth. In fact, what they are returning to the marriage with is the stench of deception, having in fact, embraced a lie.

I don't see adultery as much different from murder or stealing. All are choices, whether impassioned or cold.

Having said all that, I do realize that we are human, and that we can and do make seriously bad choices. Without forgiveness, life would be intolerable.

When I was a young man, I almost put a mans eye out. It was stupid, and it was called an accident, but it was due to a bad choice I made. The man didn't lose his eye, but it gives him trouble all the time, decades later. I can never take back what I did. The pain it caused him is still with him, although in a lesser form. The result of my action will never go away. It will be with him and his family until they are gone, and with me until I am gone.

Affairs are just the same. Damage done can never be fully rectified. As the docs above know, scars may diminish some, but they never go away.

I have no fond memories of causing another person pain. Why would any wayward spouse consider what they have done as any different? From my young days, I have a pile of carnage and pain I have caused others a mile wide. I can never undo it. To think that it can ever be anything other than what it is, is the unthinkable.

Off my soapbox now.

Gimble

So what is everyone saying. I should suck up my recovery because it's not a real recovery.

Myrta, I always get the feeling you're talking about me when you say people aren't honest on here because I admitted to you a couple of weeks ago in an e-mail I still thought about the OM. About a month ago H and I went through a bad patch when our DD came home and her whole relationship breakup with her b/f (no one else involved) brought up some stuff with my H and I.

Of course an A isn't the way to deal with marital problems but I DIDN'T KNOW THEN WHAT I KNOW NOW. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> Hindsight's a wonderful thing. It happened and nothing's ever going to change that, it's how we deal with it now that matters. And we're dealing with it wonderfully thank you very much.

I was very tempted not to reply to this post again, I just thank God my H is who he is and the sort of man he is. I am truly blessed with him.

Jen

<small>[ October 25, 2004, 02:26 AM: Message edited by: KiwiJ ]</small>

Oh dear, so much pain has been poured into my thread * sigh * I never intended this to happen.

Please do not let anyone judge the extent or actuality of anothers 'recovery'. Such is hypocrisy as mutual perception with spouse is everything, third party opinion is nothing.

Surely recovery is happiness , acceptance , remorse and forgiveness not any checkbox of who thinks about what.

regarding 'remembering' OPs, musch as I would like to be able to erase every memory of his sleazy self from my FWWs mind, that cannot happen. It is absolutely natural and expected for a FWS to 'remember' the OP IMO.

What I pray for is that my FWW just 'remembers' and not yearns for that person. If my FWW remembers him as a lovely man - a catch who got away, we can never recover.

The recovered FWWs on here have experiences that tells me it is LIKELY that my FWW will wake up to reality regarding OM at some point. I hope for that day. The facts are just so divergent from her opinion of him that words cannot accurately describe them.

Jen, if you are happy, your H is happy and you have increasing more loving days than troubled days you are recovering, maybe recovered and a shining example to folks like me.

{{{jen}}}

<small>[ October 25, 2004, 04:41 AM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

I don't know if anyone else has read the statistics on the dear Peggy site, but according to her research, something like 70+% of marriages involving infidelity do reconcile. Of this, I would say that some will be very good relationships, some will be good and others will be only so-so. But that is the same for marriages generally, whether or not infidelity is involved.

So I agree with Bob and KiwiJ, it seems to me that "true" recovery is completely possible after an A, although of course it takes time and motivation.

FNCJ thats more strong meat from you...

1. Knowing
I recall vividly how your words made me actualise the destruction of my dream of marriage. At the same time that my assumptions about my last 18 years of marriage were smashed, the whole picture of the marriage I hope to recover was also torn out.
Very painful, made me sad and reflective for days but absolutely necessary. There is no 'going back' to assumed, passive monogamy with implicit trust and little conscious effort made to be 'lovable'. I would've bet a million pounds that my FWW would never have an affair. Yet there she was humping this old wastrel in a by the hour motel believing it was love. I had always believed that people who were 'examining' prior to marriage were cynical and missing thepoint of marriage. In truth I was being naieve and missing the point.

If my FWW truly does experience a 'road to damascus' enlightenment regarding what she did and the man she did it with, it will be hard for her but GOOD for us moving forward, whether together or apart. I pray it happens and soon.
* May I ask BTW did this happen to your WH ?

2) Don't measure your recovery based on certain events happening or not happening.

I think I understand your point here that actions can be executed for many reasons: as appeasing gestures or from heartfelt need and all points inbetween.

I do not think that teh destruction of the OM triggers are a 'gesture' though. I desire their destruction fo rmany reaosns, not as a milestone in themselves of our recovery.

Firstly she IS behaving in everyday life as though she cares for me. Domestic support ,very needful SF, some good humour and loving looks etc. However it is a COUNTER caring gesture to retain and cherish the letters that represent both the 'love' between OM and herself , and the rape of my marriage.

It is no grand gesture or 'shibboleth' in my opinion for her to throw these out. It is the most basic, decent act of contrition she should perform.
To keep them is to ask me to accept that the A is worthy of affectionate rememberence by both she and I.

I KNOW it is hard for her to remove them right now, because she is still withdrawing from OM and does have genuine feelings of regret at losing him but that is exactly why it would mean so MUCH for her to get rid of them.

I have told her that it would mean so much to me whan she chooses to get rid of them, but she doesn't answer.

So I do not think it sis a line in the sand or a grand gesture, rather a basic act of decency of a contrite WS. It is not the letters, cellphone , CD etc but what they represent - her continued choice of him over me in her heart.

It is so important to me that I will say we cannot ever recover if she chooses to keep them over time.

You may ask me " why would you choose such a trivial thing to spoil an otherwise good recovery?"
My reply is that recovery is important but my personal HEALING is also important. That cannot succeed while OMs lies are in my house.Thanks for the thought provoking post again FNCJ ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />


Any new M we build, must be LESS trusting, harder working, less assumptive, more examining. In short harder work, but not built on the 'monogamy myth'.

JEN--I AM truly sorry if you think I was referring to you, but I wasn't!! I am talking in general, not with you at all in mind. I truly believe you are doing great with your husband. My husband loved when you used to post to him at the beginning. I know you were having a rough with your daughter and her ex-boyfriend. Please, dont take anything negative personally. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
I think it is very possible to recover after an affair, otherwise I would not be here with my husband. We are going to make it, like you and your husband, and Bob will too. Because we all want it to happen, and we love our spouses. It is hard,difficult, but very,very possible.
Sincerely
Myrta

LemonMan:


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But, Stan, to answer your quaetion I could be back with her right now, but that is not what my head or more importantly my heart needs. I will always love my wife.....BUT the big diiference that I think many on here fail to realize is that I love the person she WAS, and the relationship we HAD.. The affair and all of the dishonesty changes that marriage forver. It can never truly be fixed</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, I see your point. I struggled with that concept a while back and actually was grieving the loss of the wife I knew. Suddenly one is faced with a woman who has done something unthinkable and we make the mistake to judge the situation from our point of view. Like you I am fully incapable of such deception. It is not the sex, but the incredible deception that the affair requires. I can accept the desire to have sex with a new body, heck, I have the same curiosity. What is difficult to accept is the deception, particularly when it goes on and on for a long time. So one is confronted with a wife that has a huge unknown and then this is compounded by the typical tendency of “not wanting to talk” and lets sweep this under the rug. One is confronted with the concept that the wife is supposed to suddenly love the BH again after loving the OM for such a long time. That is why the chances of recovery are greater with short-term affairs without PA.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I tend to feel the way you do. I could never be a second string QB or "ride the bench", I want to be number one or nothing. You can call me egotistical or what have you but this is just the way I feel. Maybe I am not man enough, but I can't ever imagine doing what some betrayed spouses do on here in "comforting" the WS when they are in withdrawal, </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I told my wife from day one I would gladly call the OM for her if she wants him. The door is wide open and I will gladly give her the divorce and maintain the secret (no one knows about the affair). I would invent some other reason for the divorce so our children do not scorn her. I don’t want to be 2nd string, that is for sure. I am willing to try as hard as I can to make the marriage great, but we will not have all the answers for a couple of years. My wife said that it is not easy to turn off two years of romance with OM in just a few months. OK, I buy that, but I will not wait forever. BTW, if my wife mourned the loss of OM she probably did so in private. I never witnessed that.

Do you have children?

Is your wife going to stay with OM?

Are you separated?

Stanley, Myrta, and lemonman--

I am asking politely that if you three would like to talk to each other, that you start your own thread about your own topics. This is Bob Pure's thread, and the topic is "Does romantic love for the BS return to the FWS once they have come home? If so, when, how, etc?"

If you would like to post to BOB or to one of the people who has replied to Bob, please feel welcome to do so. However, if you three are going to chat about yourselves, your marriages, your affairs, if you are separated, etc. please start your own thread by clicking on [New Post].

Thank you so much for respecting this request.


CJ

Gosh I read the initial Q from Bob and then a few other post, not sure how far this has wandered but I'm going to try and answer your Q.

From MPOV, I justified my A by fooling myself into thinking my H was a very bad man, he did oh so wrong, blah blah blah. Also, there is some reality to that, I started remember past hurts, and I looked at my H in a different light.

With all of that on the surface, I had to forgive him. Yup, I had the A, but I had to learn to forgive him, for all the wrong doings I felt led to the state of our M.

Bob, maybe your W hasn't forgiven you yet, for pre-A state, and that is why her heart isn't yours, fully.

For me the words came first, the actions came second. I loved my H, the entire time, never fell out of love, I was cake eating. I used OM to make me feel good about myself, to recognize all my traits that were slipping under the rug to everybody else. I used him, he was an addiction, he could have been anybody at the time, he was nothing special, he was a man who gave me attention at a time when I was feeling really bad about myself and my M.

I believe all WS, will come to that same conclusion with time.

It wasn't love, it was so far from love, it is disgrace to even compare those messed up feelings one has during an A with OP as love.

Bob, your W seems to excel at everything she does. I'm guessing she really did well justifying her A. I'm guessing she really seen you as a lousy H. Your Plan A is waking her up, she will shake off and erase the irrational justified scenerios, but the ones that are real, she will need to forgive you.

It does come in chunks. March 15 was my dday, I'm so in love with my H. It isn't perfect, I'm still defensive occasionally, but that is because of our own personal struggles within our R. As far as the A goes, I believe we have R.

Your W is doing so well. Her head is telling her it is you, her heart just needs to catch up.

Now, I'm going to try and read up on the rest of the thread. YIKES!!

KY