</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Why is now not the time? Does he agree that NOW is not the time?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Doesn't matter if he agrees or not, I'm the one that will take the brunt of his anger. When I feel safe, I will tell him..

OK Melody, I can follow that logic. I do see your point. I do still think it's overboard. Let me say this though - Scenario: BS is not violent but let's say he/she screams or lashes out at the WS during the details session. At the very least the WS is going to hide some of the true feelings if the environment is not safe, and I'm not saying just in a physical sense but in a emotional one also. It wasn't until my wife sat me down and said "hey, I need to know it all, every detail and I won't yell at you, I won't threaten to leave you and I will continue to move toward recovery when we are done talking. But I need to know, I don't want 2 ddays." I did so (as quickly as I could run through it...LOL) at the end she cried and hugged me. This is the environment a WS needs to truely come clean.

-----------------------------------------------
Why is now not the time? Does he agree that NOW is not the time?
-----------------------------------------------

It's my guess he could hear the details anytime he wanted to. see, it's not the WS that decides when the details are told, it's when the BS gives that safe environmet. I'm not sure this is the case ALL of the time but I bet it's true in WU's case as it was in mine.

WU,

I am so sorry that your H subjected you to the psycho special effects. I hope that things have calmed down significantly where he can at least act civil towards you. As Cerri, our resident MB coach and founder of www.saveyourmarriagecentral.com said in one of her old posts: "You can't love another person if you are afraid of him/her" and it would be another issue for you to keep in mind and convey to your H the next time you talk with him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Waking Up:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Why is now not the time? Does he agree that NOW is not the time?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Doesn't matter if he agrees or not, I'm the one that will take the brunt of his anger. When I feel safe, I will tell him.. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WU, I would tell him this then. You are going to enrage him even more [rightly so] if he believes you are withholding information from him. You are playing with his life by withholding information from him.

See, he has a right to know the facts about the affair because this is about his life too. The facts have been wrongfully withheld from him for years and withholding them even longer only compounds the cruelty. Making him wait only further erodes trust.

So while I do agree that you need to be safe, you also need to be completely open and honest and tell him WHY you are hesitant to tell him. You have a valid reason, but once he has agreed to control himself, it is very important that you tell him everything. Because recovery will not start until everything is out on the table. Nor will he be able to ever trust you again until he knows everything.

ML-
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Because recovery will not start until everything is out on the table. Nor will he be able to ever trust you again until he knows everything.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know this, but the first step is to truly end the A with OM. Come completely clean, but only in a safe environment.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by SleeplessInSF:
<strong> It wasn't until my wife sat me down and said "hey, I need to know it all, every detail and I won't yell at you, I won't threaten to leave you and I will continue to move toward recovery when we are done talking. But I need to know, I don't want 2 ddays." I did so (as quickly as I could run through it...LOL) at the end she cried and hugged me. This is the environment a WS needs to truely come clean. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SF, and I agree with this 100%. She can't be expected to withstand another gun brandishing scene and needs to make this clear to her WS. She needs to negotiate this discussion with him. BUT, she needs to have that discussion instead of just refusing to tell him. Just refusing to tell him does nothing but erode trust even further.

Good points, SF. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Waking Up:
<strong> ML-
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Because recovery will not start until everything is out on the table. Nor will he be able to ever trust you again until he knows everything.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know this, but the first step is to truly end the A with OM. Come completely clean, but only in a safe environment. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WU, he has to be told you are still in this affair. You have no right to carry on this affair and not tell him.

TMCM,
I will briefly try to explain the atmosphere..
H "supposedly" accepted the Lord into his heart Jan 04 just before we seperated. I was skeptical because he has had no use for God, but knew it was important to me and also knew our marriage was on the brink of ending. So, we are seperated, he hears of A, I denied at first, then he says "I'm a changed man, I a new person, I got saved. Tell me the truth and we can deal with it, I love you." So, I thought ok, maybe this conversion was real. Well, you know the rest of the story...
I really wanted to trust him finally with my heart and start over but now I feel tricked.
He is acting lovingly and caringly but I am very leary. See, he has his wife back in line so to speak.
Sometimes I don't know what to do. I just know I need to end the EA and see where my life/marriage goes...
WU

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Waking Up:
<strong>
I really wanted to trust him finally with my heart and start over but now I feel tricked.
He is acting lovingly and caringly but I am very leary. See, he has his wife back in line so to speak.

WU </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, let me get this straight, WU. You lie and cheat on him and continue in this affair every day and you feel tricked?" I must have smoked some bad crack today, but my common sense tells me that HE has been tricked with your lies and deceit. Something tells me that YOU are the one with the trust problem, not him.

You know, acting "loving" cuts both ways, WU. And there is nothing "loving" about lying and cheating on your spouse. Nor is there anything "Christian" about such immoral behavior.

I am sorry to be so direct with you, but are operating under some serious delusions here. You are actively tricking your H and acting completely untrustworthy, yet you accuse him of these very things.

You then add insult to injury by condemning him for his strong reaction that YOU CAUSED by your cruel behavior.

Now we are to understand that he can't "be trusted" because he overreacted to the cruelest betrayal a spouse can commit. And then we hear how you suspect he isn't a "christian" because he isn't "nice" while you commit this cruel act behind his back.
'

WU. I don't know what to say. If you could see through objective eyes how very fogged over you are, you would be shocked. It is a shocking and rare thing to see such backwards logic, even on this forum.

If you cannot see clearly enough to do the right thing, please just allow us to help you through this period until your sanity returns.

Did I ever say I was right in this? No.
Did I acknowledge I need to end the A? Yes
Did I ask for help here? Yes
Now check out my name: WAKING UP (Finally)

Have a good evening

WU, I truly hope you do wake up, but that is not the same as being fully awake. Just as "trying" to end an affair is not the same as ending an affair. Talk is cheap. An affair is ended, not by "trying", but by doing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong> WU, I truly hope you do wake up, but that is not the same as being fully awake. Just as "trying" to end an affair is not the same as ending an affair. Talk is cheap. An affair is ended, not by "trying", but by doing. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ML is right, WU. YOU HAVE To end this. I know it is going to end by default pretty soon- but honestly, I think you are doing your H (and yes the OM too) a disservice by not actively ending this- AND coming clean with your H.

<small>[ October 29, 2004, 06:53 AM: Message edited by: Sadfww ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">TMCM,
I will briefly try to explain the atmosphere..
H "supposedly" accepted the Lord into his heart Jan 04 just before we seperated. I was skeptical because he has had no use for God, but knew it was important to me and also knew our marriage was on the brink of ending. So, we are seperated, he hears of A, I denied at first, then he says "I'm a changed man, I a new person, I got saved. Tell me the truth and we can deal with it, I love you." So, I thought ok, maybe this conversion was real. Well, you know the rest of the story...
I really wanted to trust him finally with my heart and start over but now I feel tricked.
He is acting lovingly and caringly but I am very leary. See, he has his wife back in line so to speak.
Sometimes I don't know what to do. I just know I need to end the EA and see where my life/marriage goes...
WU
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Waking Up - I have some "tough love" things to say, so if you'd prefer not to read them, skip this post. IMHO, these things need to be said because you admit to still be "waking up" and still in some of the "fog."

First, the "I'm waking up" but not there yet," excuse. You've been in this phase long enough. You KNOW what needs to be done, yet you continue to resist and make excuses.

The "excuses" have gone over to "blaming" your husband for not giving you a "safe environment" for you to "come clean." I read the incident about his brandishing a weapon, and frankly, I'm not surprised. SAYING something is NOT the same thing as doing something.

Let me tell you, *I* SERIOUSLY considered obtaining a handgun and ENDING my wife's 6 year affair permanently when I first received the "bomb." I was THAT destroyed and mentally "deranged." What was MINE by vow of marriage and covenant with God was forceably and unwilling raped and torn from me. Unless you are ever the recipient of the "nuclear bomb" an unfaithful spouse drops into your lap, you will probably never truly understand the length, and depth, and breath of the devastation that your ACTIONS dealt to his entire being. It's the closest thing I can imagine to looking death straight in the eye and considering your entire life to have been one gigantic failure. It is being at the bottom of the proverbial "bottomless pit" with no apparant way out.

Why didn't I "go through" with actually doing physical harm? A few reasons: 1)I'm not a violent man, it's not my personality. I can get angry and scream and even "threaten," but I won't actually DO harm; 2)Despite the enormity of the pain I felt, I love my wife and would not harm her (the OM...don't know if I might have sometime reached the "mental breaking point"); 3)the Lord's command is "thou shalt not kill;" 4)the Lord's "promise" is "Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord, I shall repay. It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

Were it not for my faith, who knows what I MIGHT have done. One thing IS certain to me, though, without God as a partner in our covenant and without my wife being a believer, we would not now be married.

Waking Up - IMHO until you END the affair, not let it die by default, you remain in the affair and recovery is NOT possible. And here's the really "scary part;" all the excuses you use to continue to be dishonest with your husband, the outright lies and the lies of omission, the disrespectful judgments and "doubts," are EXCUSES and must end. Recovery of your marriage is in your husband's hands, not yours. Yes, if recovery is to be attempted, you will both have to do your parts, but the very attempt to recover your marriage is in your husband's control, not yours.

Just as the affair was in your control, the recovery is in your husband's control. The mere fact that he is even WILLING to try, willing to try to make changes in himself, willing to submit his will to God's will, is ENOUGH. I know this may sound unduly harsh, but no WS "deserves" a spouse who is willing to endure the pain and try to forgive and rebuild. It is LOVE, despite the pain and heartwrenching anguish, that is the "motivation." It is LOVE, despite the "love busters" that might be spoken in anguish and pain from time to time. LOVE covers over a multitude of sins.

You speak of not "trusting" your husband. So what? He has no real reason to trust you in anything you say or do. Trust, at the beginning of recovey is DEAD. It needs to be resurrected, cleaned up, and rebuilt. Blind trust will never again be possible, IMHO, but EARNED trust can be earned and received.

WU, I am 2.5 years into recovery with my wife. I still do not trust her in anything regarding her former OM or anything related to that sordid 6 years. I trust her in virtually every other thing, but NOT the affair. A large part of that is because I have NEVER been told the truth, information has been withheld, I have had to discover everything (like the ongoing contact). Yes, I thought contact finally ended 6 months ago, but I now know it has not. I am still here and still in recovery, because I DO love her despite my faults and despite her faults. I HOPE for a future when I trust her in all things. I TRUST God, because I'm "blind as a bat" regarding the future and can only see what's in front of my face TODAY.

Therein lies a major a dilemna for the BS, you love your spouse and want to recover your marriage. When your WS finally "comes on board," however reluctantly at first, at least there's a "chance." As time goes by, love and intimacy begin to return for both of you. But in the "back of your mind" as the BS is the question, "is the affair, in all of it's aspects, REALLY over?" Contact of any sort answers that question in the negative.

So the BS is left with having to endure more. More triggers, more doubt, more "imagining" how much more of a "man" the OM was, etc. It's a knife slowly twisting in the gut, wielded by someone who professes to love you, or at least "like you." And the sad part is you actually believe your spouse DOES love you now, but not "totally" and "exclusively," or the knife wouldn't be there. So the BS asks themselves "how long should I endure the pain in the HOPE that my spouse will finally be able to get past it?"

You ask a lot from your BS. Demeaning him and using excuses to keep the truth from him is wrong.

As a woman, how would you feel if he kept a "friend" around who had repeatedly raped you while your husband consented to the raping? Wouldn't you be filled with rage at both of them? Wouldn't you think of the "final solution?" Wouldn't you lose all trust and respect for your husband? Wouldn't you want to know "all the details" about why he thought it would be okay? Wouldn't you HURT and struggle with even forgiving the enormity of the assault against you? Wouldn't you have the "right" to decide if the marriage would continue even if your spouse was apologetic, remorseful, and wanting to stay married to you? Wouldn't you "demand" he cease all contact with his "friend" forever? Wouldn't you DESERVE and EXPECT his stopping the lying and be honest with you?

Waking Up - It's past time for you stop playing games and start dealing with the pain and the cold, hard, reality of trying to rebuild a marriage that has been ripped asunder by infidelity.

Waking Up - God can, and will help you both. He will teach you both along the way. You will both learn to be obedient to Him because He IS your Sovereign Lord and HE has the right to expect obedience from both of you, no matter what each of you is thinking or feeling, unless you think you can "fool God" and "spit in His eye" with impunity.

Waking Up, your husband is there with you now. Please don't make the mistake of thinking he will wait forever. He won't. He does love you, and is willing to try, but the "offer" is not without a "limit." Just as you desire to see changes in him, so too, he MUST see real changes in you because you have already "proven" the "value" you place on your marriage covenant. Just as you have in your possession "all the facts and details about the adulterous affair," you husband has a gigantic hole of knowledge. He MUST fill in that hole with knowledge before he can learn and before he can begin to assess the changes that might be needed. He cannot be expected to "take the test" devoid of all information or with just a "brief overview." Learning takes time and so does recovering a marriage. Some of the learning is easy and some of it is very hard.

The time is NOW, today. No more excuses. No more delays. No more rationalizations. Either plunge into the "uncertainty of marital recovery" with both feet, or end it. Either way there WILL be pain and hard times, but they are not fatal. There will be recovery, either together or alone. The choice is yours. Your husband has already made his choice, but the "offer" is not open forever.

May God grant you the wisdom to UNDERSTAND and to OBEY Him and may you understand that GOD will provide you all the strength you both need to "get through" each day. Neither of you has to rely solely on your own strength. HIS unlimited and omnipotent strength is there for the "taking" as you both put your TRUST in God to guide you and your marriage through the healing process.

God bless.

ForeverHers,

The A will either end by phone today if I can get ahold of OM or a NC letter will be mailed.

I never intended on the A ending by default, I planned on ending it either by phone or letter when he could not longer contact me.

I heard everything you said. I could have choosen to just bag it all and go to OM knowing that dealing with my H is going to be very difficult when truth is revealed, but I chose to do what is right in Gods eyes, end the A, after that it's in his hands. I am relying on God's mercy and grace.

Ron53,

I just read your story....I don't know what to say...You are in my prayers..

WU

OK I'm staying on the recovery board were I belong <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> .

WU, I didn't know you were still in the A. I think that needs to be dealt with and finished before you try to work on your M. Good luck....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Waking Up:
<strong>

I heard everything you said. I could have choosen to just bag it all and go to OM knowing that dealing with my H is going to be very difficult when truth is revealed, but I chose to do what is right in Gods eyes, end the A, after that it's in his hands. I am relying on God's mercy and grace. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But you have not done what is right in God's eyes, WU. You are still in the affair. You continue to lie and deceive your H and plan to continue to deceive him. Don't try and take credit for something you have not done. Repent means to turn away from. That has not happened, WU. Just remember, talk is cheap.

WU,

I truly pray that you will end your A Today. As far as asking for the details, I'm a woman and I wanted to know every little detail. In fact, if he could give me a movie of every move, every word for the last two years - that would be what I want. However, since I can't have the movie, I will settle for all the emails I found and am still reading through. He also told me details about places and answered some tough questions I asked about the act itself. Anyway, it may seem weird, but it helped me. It has been two months since I asked and he told me and I don't regret the converstation at all. Now, I do have the images that are hard to deal with, but I much prefer them to what was running in my imagination. But that is just me.

Anyway, I hope this helps. So its not just men who want the details. And yes, the emotional part was important and hard for me to hear too. But, my H also said that it wasn't all about the sex. Well, yes, but nevertheless the whole thing ENs, sex and all - we (BS) need to know to recover.

Oh, and great quote Melody Lane...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> An affair is ended, not by "trying", but by doing.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I emailed this to my H. He still has to work with OW so in my opinion their constant contact is inhibiting our recovery. And they constantly "try" to not talk. But she continues to email, page and call him and he continues to answer and talk to her. Just "chatting" about kids, weekend plans, etc. Still dealing with the EA. Gotta get away. It is the only answer. We are currently searching for a new job for him out of state.

I hope my comments helped some, WU. My only other advice is to end it completely. The constant (unavoidable job contact in my case) contact is very difficult to deal with.

ng <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />