</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KMEJ:
<strong>
Can I ask why you say I fuel the fire? I am not persay disagreeing with you, just asking. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sure, I'll "show my work"

I believe I've seen several DJ's as well as just plain 'ole invalidation of how he feels. That's one.

Two, it takes two to argue, so don't. If he yells, well respectfully reject his technique.

You said he told you to F off. Well, that's not very nice of him, did you see if you could join him later after he had a chance to cool off, or did you just go to your "corner" and stew a bit.

I'm not saying that's wrong, I'm just saying you haven't found a way to connect.

Certainly, you may never find a way to connect. The best you can hope to do is two-fold.

First, show him that his way is not working. He has to be doing what he's doing because on some level it's working for him. So make sure that behaviors he exhibits that you don't like stop working for him.

Second, show him what does work, that you are believe he is worth working for, and that there is a way the two of you can work together that is respectful and mutually satisfying.

If he can't or won't join you there, and some people don't, you still have the satisfaction that you've become the best person you can be.

HTH,

TB

Guys, guys please read this ENTIRE thread to get a better picture of what KMEJ is actually dealing with. It explains the scheduling conflicts and also the nature of her H's treatment of her. She could be the MB Wife of the Year and still have him avoid and continue to abuse her.

The most perfect Plan A and meeting ALL of his ENs in the world are not going to change this man, he is a law unto himself and there is NOTHING she can do about it. She can't even check his cell phone to confirm continued contact b/c he promply deletes all messages. The OWs phone numbers are in the cell and KMEJ has been told if she stays out of his phone, there will be no problems. In all likelihood there is continued contact and we all know what that means. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I am concerned that by suggesting ideas that would work in a normal marriage recovery you are making her feel even MORE responsible to control her husband's outrageous behavior. The date thing in and of itself is not THAT bad but if you read all her other threads you can see that it is part of a continuous pattern of unacceptable behavior that is systematically wearing her down.

She is a very brave and determined woman who is trying her darndest to cope with a nearly impossible situation. Let's not heap more coals on her head, okay? Thankfully most marriages on this forum are not in this condition, so it is understandable to respond with solid MB advice but the bottom line is the abuse issues MUST be dealt with FIRST before the concepts have any chance to affect her marital recovery.

She can only change herself but in the end it will not be enough. I just don't want to see her take TOO much responsibility for her H's reactions here and it seems like the thread is starting to head in that direction. It's all well intentioned I know, but we also need to try to keep the bigger picture in mind here. It's so difficult to enforce boundaries when they are ignored, belittled and outright disrespected. Perhaps with a more detailed picture of KMEJs situation, you might come up with something that hasn't already been said that will make all the difference in the world to her. KB

double

<small>[ October 27, 2004, 04:04 PM: Message edited by: javaSansContour ]</small>

the edited version, I don't believe I was as clear as I could be the first time around.

Ok,

I'll admit that I'm often skeptical of the whole abuse thing. (not specifically her case, but I believe it is thrown around frequently to justify someone leaving, etc. I've had folks say I was abusive because I wanted my 13 year old step daughter to load the dishwasher, so this is a hot button with me.) But to be honest, I'm not position to judge if something is abuse or not.

I was accused of being a controlling man, I went out and read Patricia Evans' book on this, and can see how some of my behaviors appear to be controlling, but I disagreed with the "excuse" my WW gave that I was controlling. She uses this to justify leaving and not working on the marriage and having her affair. So for me, labels are a trigger of sorts as I've experienced them being used to justify some pretty hurtful behavior by the one who claims victim status.

Did she feel controlled? Probably, it would be a DJ for me to say she didn't feel that way.

Was it my objective or intention to control her? Nope, never has been, never will.

How do you effectively deal with that? Anyway, I digress and admit that I often see people here and in the real world, complain about the behavior of a spouse and then go and do the same darn thing (perhaps in a different form) and not hold themselves to the same standard.

That's why I'm skeptical of those who throw around labels, because it CAN (not always but can) be used to avoid looking at your own behavior.

However, I do find it odd that the check lists given are almost 100% written as if women are the victims and men are the abusers.

Ok, with that said, ultimately it doesn't matter what labels we put on these things, KMEJ has to decide if she wants to work on the relationship or not.

If she does, then the way I see it, she has to do the things I mentioned, plus make sure that she is safe. If she doesn't feel like she is in a safe place, then get out.

Simple.

I'm operating on the question and the information given here. I realize that it's only a fraction of all the information available and everything on this site is written from the POV of the posts author.

Her husband, like it or not is a human being as well, and it would seem by the effort she demonstrates here, is someone she cares about.

So we can label him all day long, but if we don't find a way for her to lead him out of the forest of neglect, pain, or whatever it is that keeps him from being a caring human being, then we're just a bunch of internet busybodies that accomplish very little.

Of course, I'm an ESTJ, so I'm more about the action, and not so much about the feelings <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Stay safe, and remember that we are all hurting humans, each and every one of us.

TB

Originally posted by javaSansContour:
Ok,

I'll admit that I'm often skeptical of the whole abuse thing. But to be honest, I'm not position to judge if something is abuse or not.

However, I do find it odd that the check lists given are almost 100% written as if women are the victims and men are the abusers.

I think flushing someone's head down the toilet or sweeping items off a table in anger resulting in the spouse being hit in the face with a lamp is an arrestable offence. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> It's called Domestic Violence. In this case the abuser is the man.

Ok, with that said, ultimately it doesn't matter what labels we put on these things, KMEJ has to decide if she wants to work on the relationship or not.

Yes, she wants to.

If she does, then the way I see it, she has to do the things I mentioned, plus make sure that she is safe. If she doesn't feel like she is in a safe place, then get out.

Part of the answer as to why women (or men!) stay in abusive relationships is because they minimize or take responsibility for the abuse. "If I hadn't done this or that, then he wouldn't have..." or "It's my fault because I..." and "At least he didn't *really* hurt me" or "She didn't mean it *that* way, she just...."

So we can label him all day long, but if we don't find a way for her to lead him out of the forest of neglect, pain, or whatever it is that keeps him from being a caring human being, then we're just a bunch of internet busybodies that accomplish very little.

So true, so let's work on it from an informed point of view.

Of course, I'm an ESTJ, so I'm more about the action, and not so much about the feelings <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Me too, but don't know what ESTJ means. Problem solving personality? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> KB

KB and all others helping-
thanks a whole lot. My H does not abuse me persay. It is more emotional neglect and things he thinks he is doing to be "playful" most of the time. I agree that most abuse information is geared around the Male being the abuser, that is not always true, but mainly.
I love my H. I have since I was 15, not likely to change.
However I came home from work today ready to try some of the things that you had suggested. H was on the computer- okay fine, I went and got the mail, came back he was off and upstairs. I went up there, kids followed, he asks me to preoccupy the children and come back, okay done. I was thinking we would talk about last night. Nope he was interested in a BJ and that is it. I was hurt. He asked why I was mad, I was not mad I was hurt (and told him that). I told him it has been years since we made love ( we have sex, but no emotion involved), and that is what I wanted, he told me that it was not what he wanted. Anyway when done he up and left for work, not saying anything other then "grab my phone". Why does he do this?

Okay guys I got the point, last night I was out of line, I should have understood where he was coming from and dropped the issue, In my defense however, I did NOT think that having BF over was a big deal, I will know better next time. I just do not get why there are different sets of rules for his side of the family and mine.

oh yeah one more thing-
H has tomorrow off, I offered to have HIS sister come over so we could go out just us from 2:30-4, not very long but hey it is time. He said ahg, we will see. I can not get a babysitter here with a we will see. He said that he has bowling and does not know what he is going to do. SEE he is avoiding spending time with me. He is leaveing to go hunting next Friday morning, with his buddies, so what about me??

My opinion for what it's worth which is free...

I would NEVER let a girl-no matter who she was-babysit my child while her boyfriend was there. Too much can happen. A babysitting job could turn into a house destroying drunken teenage free for all...or your children could come into the room and see them doing something that little eyes-or big eyes for that matter-should not see. You see your husband has been a teenage boy-he knows how that mind works.

The fact that you think your sister has poor taste in boyfriends also is not good. Did it ever occur to you why he would want to be there? Popcorn..television..hand holding...I don't think so...

I agree with your husband. No boy should have been there. You don't know him, his friends, or his history. You were trusting the care of your children to a stranger.

That said, your husband's reaction and treatment of you were out of line. He should never swear at you. Why did he not feel his objections could be heard? Did he feel as if you run the household? Do you make him feel powerless? Did you include him in the plans?

You really would not let your childrens aunt watch them?? Really? Okay the BF fogs it up a little, fine, but he does let his brothers and sisters watch our kids with their BF and GF's so there is a big double standard going on here.

It was spir of the moment date night. WE have not had one in months. He had a meeting and then we were going out. He said if I could find a sitter he was all for it.
My sister is 22, so it is not like is is 16.
I did not understand him last night as I wanted to have some alone time with him. I did not realize that if he was uncomfortable he would have been miserable to be out with anyway. I should have enjoyed our home time too. I was just upset because he shut me down with out even letting me tell him how I was feeling. I guess because I jumped all over him thinking that he just did not want to spend time with me.