Thos- this is my last response to this discussion on this thread. If you want to continue it please start a new one.

I'm not sure why you are insisting on putting words in my mouth or trying to read something in to my posts on this topic that simply is not in the posts. ALL I SAID was that violence is not acceptable- and that she did not deserve to be hit with a beer bottle below the eye.

I did not compare the relative *wrongness* of either action. I did not say that physical violence in response to an A was WORSE then an A. I said that one did not excuse the other- but no where did I castigate, point fingers or say that her H was an evil rotten person for throwing the beer bottle. Period.

I don't know why you feel the need to make sure that I am aware how horrible an A is- or how much damage it does to a spouse. Believe me, I am quite aware of all of the points that you made.

::::The difference here is the A in question, and yours too I presume, was planned and executed over a long period of time with malice aforethought.

Thos, the above statement is the only thing I don't totally agree with you about. The rest of your post blew me away! The malice aforethought comment though? It is malicious and yet it's not malicious. The behavior is shrouded in an altered mindset - which allows for denial that "no-one will know" and hence not hurt by their action. The altered mind set is self induced logic that what they are doing isn't so bad - primarily that they want to do it, so they have to construct a new set of beliefs to accommodate their desires.

It's not strictly malicious - though, like you, I'm inclined to believe that it is very malicious - for all of the reasons that I won't need to explain to you. The only saving grace to their behavior is that they believed it would be a secret and no one would get hurt. Try telling that to the judge when you are on a manslaughter charge for killing a child whilst driving drunk. To me, it's pretty much the same mind set involved in both situations. "Oh I'm fine to drive home - it's only a few blocks".

:::DC’s H acted in extremis. There is a world of difference, morally, ethically and legally. It is analogous to premeditated murder vs. manslaughter. Personal responsibility is absolute in both cases. Culpability and resulting penalties are hugely different, though.

I've come to the conclusion that I would very much support a law that made adultery illegal, with a penalty the same as for "grievous bodily harm".

::::A’s are premeditated physical violence as well as premeditated emotional violence. Anyname and I have both suffered physical hurt as a direct result of our spouses A’s. (Try reading DLee’s thread in recovery if you don’t believe A’s cause physical harm to the BS.)

This subject is rarely discussed on MB's - the physical damage to the BS - the extent of it. I don't think a lot of people get just how dangerous it is. In many ways, it's irrelevent once a WS is remorseful. The damage is done and the illnesses will come and go or not and it's nobody's fault that a BS can't get back to where they were much under two or is it five years? But you and I know that it is somebody's fault. I was the picture of health on d-day.

I'm taking nexium for daily gastic reflux which doesn't seem to be working - I've just read that it might require surgery. I never suffered a day of heart burn in my life before the A. You mentioned stomach problems - are you on treatment too? How about sleeping? I can't sleep without a cocktail of drugs (I am worried about where this is leading). I can exercise for 2 hours or more a day but as soon as I go to bed my stomach starts churning. Again, this is since d-day.

::::In particular, I developed a stress-caused aneurysm in my left eye that rendered me almost blind. It still comes back occasionally even now. I lost 30 lbs. I started smoking again. Intestinal problems requiring a Dr’s intervention. I suffered a great deal at work, and I still am. The list of harmful physical effects goes on and on and will most likely also show up in the future.

I am almost too nervous to read the DLee thread on recovery. I am so sorry to hear that you've had so many problems too. With the smoking yeah? If you are like me, you don't really care if it kills you? I don't smoke but had given up alcohol because alcohol is a risk factor for familial breast cancer. But a month of two after d-day I reintroduced it - because I no longer cared if it killed me. I hope you will set yourself a time frame to give it up. I don't think it matters too much yet a while, but I want to encourage you to think of smoking as temporary. It's sooooo bad for you. Two years and then it's gotta stop K???? did I mention that I'm still drinking alcohol - and my breasts are a mass of cysts and inflammed tissue - hence I can only say "do as I say, not as I do!

:::: But I seem to read in some of these posts that the BS must above all control their feelings. At the same time the poor WS is sort of let off the hook with regard to not controlling their feelings wrt their sordid A. Why? Well, because they are finally coming clean. Now it’s the BS who is blamed if they are not perfect in their reactions to their intense feelings.

Or for not fully supplying the WSs EN's. I have never bought this deal and never will. It just doesn't fit how M works.

::::Bottom line: A’s are a much worse violence compared to momentarily losing control when you discover your life and family is destroyed by the one person you trusted above all others.

Right on!

:::But, I don’t blame anyone for anything. I don’t blame my W because experts say it is not productive. But if WW’s want to blame their BH’s in how they react on DDay, that’s OK with me. I just will not accept it. And I don’t accept the blame meted out here to DC’s H on his behalf either.

Yet on the surface - it sounds shocking. That's our preconditioning to violence. My preconditioning to infidelity was just as strong as my preconditioning to violence. Like you though, I felt pity for the BH who threw the bottle. I didn't feel anything the night I discovered the A. I was so numb with shock I was unable to process it.

:::Plato Not Prozac, by Dr. Lou Marinoff. You may find it useful in recovering from betrayal of this magnitude. It is an ethical, not moral, look at dealing with life’s problems, including marital infidelity (that’s such a minimizing term for such a huge premeditated traitorous series of acts, isn’t it).

Thank you. I will look for the book.


:::I am a practicing Catholic and find my help in God. But the secular approaches described in this text helped me too, especially the B-Series discussion. And, the discussion on moral relativism is very good. It directly applies to this discussion. A’s are wrong and losing control in an emotional crisis is wrong. But they are not the same wrongness. Some things are indeed more wrong than others.

I have a friend who is a Catholic. She's quite amazing. I'm an atheist but I very much admire my friend. She's not a hypocrite but a christian in as much as it's possible for anyone to be a christian. (not easy)

Thos, I think you are having a pretty tuff time of it at the moment. I can hear it in your words. I am not sure whether your wife has returned to you in spirit and or person. If she has I think I need to tell you that as time goes by, you do heal. I can't believe I'm saying this, but I have started to notice signs of healing. They are just seeds right now but they are a beginnng. I think the body/mind/spirit is designed to heal and it wants to heal - and it tries hard to get past grief. But there is a lot of "process" to go thru before it can happen. There is no right way, there is your own individual course that you follow by instinct. And as badly as people like me manage, we do eventually heal.

Most of those old sayings are true because they are time tested. "Time heals"! I think it does. I hope it does!

AN

Folks PLEASE stop hijacking Dreamcatcher's thread.

I find the whole thing of hijacking a thread quite childish. I would never get upset if I posted a topic and other issues were raised and discussed on *My Thread*. It's a public forum and we're dealing with issues pertaining to marriage & infidelity. That's close enough in my book. Plus, in this case, we are discussing one of the aspects involved in the initial post.

Toomucoffeeman - I've read other comments from you and you always seem quite sensible - so I'll put it down to not enough coffee today.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I thought the posts on this thread were very timely and appropriate. They related back, in a productive way, to the originator's dilemma by discussing the underlying principles. I don't see it as a threadjack at all.

I want to also say that there are so many damn good posts on this thread that when I read it I thought to myself how very fortunate I am to share a forum with some of these brilliant, articulate, thoughtful people.

First of all I am a BS and by comparison my XW would leave most of your FWS look like the Pope or Mother Theresa any day of the week, but that doesn't mean that I had the right to use violence against her because I had been 'emotionally raped'. The law may take into consideration a person's mental state when dishing out punishment but in no way does it condone it.

well, he came home..and is talking, still pretty angry and I'm really not sure where this is going to end up...but at least he's talking and home...He's even going to stay and catch the Steeler game with me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I'll try to post more when he takes off this evening..

PS: I dont' consider the discussion that's taken off on the thread hi-jacking...and I thank sfww for taking some hits for her belief that violence isn't an option. I also want to stress that I do NOT blame my H a bit for losing his 'cool'..it is understandable and something I can let go of as long as it was a one and only time thing..it will only be the 'one' time though..I can guarantee ya that..
[edited to add]..I would have a totally different feeling on this if he had purposely whacked me with a bottle, or physically attacked me. If that were the situation, I'm pretty sure I would have a hard time 'letting it go'..nah, I'm positive I wouldn't let it go... He says it was an accident, I chose to believe him

<small>[ October 31, 2004, 02:26 PM: Message edited by: dreamcatcher ]</small>

DC,

I’m happy H is home and talking. Will he come to MB?

His reaction was probably, as you say, a one-off thing.

But I wonder, what should in his turn think about your A? Was that a one-off? I gather that it wasn’t though; that it was not an accident and that it lasted for a while. Is he expected to choose to "let it go?”

You are both going to have to travel the whole distance together in this. You both need to decide what you discard and what you hold.

And just to be clear, I agree with sadfww, violence is not acceptable, but neither are affairs. They are serious violence also.

T

Sadfww quote: “I don't know why you feel the need to make sure that I am aware how horrible an A is- or how much damage it does to a spouse. Believe me, I am quite aware of all of the points that you made.”

I accept you think you are aware of “all the points”. But I wonder. I really do wonder how much you and many, if not most, WS’s, truly understand.

Ok, I accept that you see with your eyes the harm your A has done to H, family, OM W and family. But do you understand? Have you true empathy for the magnitude of the emotional and physical pain you and OM inflicted on all the innocent bystanders?

Like most offenders of one kind of another, WS’s know what they are doing will hurt others. They even know they will hurt themselves. But they don’t want to think about it. They consciously suppress this knowledge. It’s too threatening to what they want to get for themselves out of the affair. You were aware of these “points” from the very beginning of your affair, I bet. You didn’t want to spend any effort at all in understanding them, though.

My W recently told me, “You would be amazed at what you don’t think about while in an affair.” Few WS’s think through the mortal consequences at any time during their A. But are you now? Or are you still leaving the consequences to the victims of your A to suffer through in silence?

I see a lot of the latter attitude right here on MB, in fact. To “win” the WS back the BS has to more or less suffer in silence. No LB’s, no emotional episodes, no nothing but perfect Plan A. WS on the other hand gets to withdraw, LB ‘till the cows come home, rewrite the history of the M, and do basically anything they want. BS just takes it on the chin and suffers WS wrath if they make even the smallest mistake. It’s Ye Olde Right or Married Syndrome. The assumption seems to be you can’t be both when dealing with an adulterer.

This is why I wrote, “malice aforethought”. I think just about any otherwise sane person does not take the time to fully think through the consequences of actions they know will hurt people, no matter what those actions are. Murderers, bank robbers and adulterers all gloss over the consequences of their actions. Otherwise, they wouldn’t commit these acts in the first place! So they are aware, but they do not let themselves understand.

As a lawyer would say, “you either knew or should have known” the harm you were causing and would cause. That makes you absolutely culpable for all the residual damage, no matter what it turns out to encompass and no matter how long it takes to manifest, emotional and physical and financial. Even the harm you cause to yourself.

T

PS: Anyname, W and I are doing pretty well, all things considered. The disrespectful treatment of DC’s H in some posts just set me off is all. Reflux – tilt up the head of your bed, it helps. Smoking – it’s cigars now, not cigs. I was up to a dozen cheap ones a day for a while after DDay2 and yes I wanted them to kill me. I don’t want to die anymore though. I just want to quit again. But it sure is hard. I read that nicotine is metabolized into a precursor of dopamine. Explains why smoking calms nerves.

*****edited by JustUss*******

What??? You know what, I know I did a bad bad bad thing...but sorry, don't think I deserve to die over it...hey, if you have a straight line into God and KNOW what punishment I deserve, I may accept that...but MY God has forgiven me and doesn't think I deserve to die.

I was about to post some questions as to how I can answer my H when he wants to know 'why' I did this...was hoping for some guidance from the board, but I think I'll just go along and figure this out on my own....I was prepared for some to think I deserved the beer bottle to the head, but this is ridiculous..I'll leave those who think I deserve whatever he wants to dish out to me to sit up on your pillar of rightousness...and hope to God you never find yourself with a sin on your shoulders...but of course that would never happen to YOU now would it noodle?..keep throwing those stones as you have no sin tainting you...

{edited to add}...just to clarify...It wasn't about my 'weekend being ruined'...I made that comment with the full knowledge that things will never be the same for us again, to pull out that comment and make it sound like I was just whining over what I had coming was another misjudgement...must be nice to be as perfect as noodle...

<small>[ November 01, 2004, 10:31 PM: Message edited by: Justuss ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by noodle:
<strong>


The trouble with assigning punishment for the WS is that there really isn't anything that could be done to you..that would be the measure of what you have done.

--Noodle </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know, Noodle, that is probably THE cruelest post I have ever read here. Thanks for the thought.

<small>[ November 01, 2004, 10:32 PM: Message edited by: Justuss ]</small>

Dreamcatcher- please do continue posting here. I am quite honestly really saddened by the nasty and cruel posts on this thread- but I believe that most of the MB'ers here don't believe that WS deserve to die- etc etc.

Thos- please discontinue posting to me. You don't know my story- or anything about me, and frankly I don't need this kind of finger pointing right now.

Before we all stomp off with our skirts in a huff, let's take another look at noodle's statement lest we completely miss her point. [and many of you did] She never recommended killing the WS. She said that punishment could not be assigned because there really is no punishment to fit the gravity of the crime [adultery].

Her points were not cruel, they were insightful and accurate; perhaps hard to hear for some, but let's not miss out on an outstanding message by hastily jumping to the wrong conclusion about her remarks.

Noodle, your post was outstanding and I thank you for posting it.

You know what ML- I completely disagree with you. Not only did Noodle say that violence WAS deserved by a WS, she suggested that the *crime* of A was so great that even killing "isn't enough" to atone for the crime.

I don't think I misread the post. I'm actually quite saddened that this is deemed not only acceptable here- but is encouraged and praised as an insightful thought.

sad, you can disagree all you want, but she clearly did not say any such thing. I think she hit a nerve with a few folks who were looking for a reason to dismiss her post. I believe she hit a sore point and instead of responding to her points, it's much easier to mischaracterize her statements and storm off in a huff.

If you disagree with her, then why not lay out, calmly and rationally, why you refute her points? We are not junior high girls here and I think are capable of rational, mature behavior, are we not?

Noodle, Eloquent perhaps. But better and more appropriate to be left unsaid, as this is a discovery best served from the inside out.

Otherwise, we may as well revert back to the 1600s for a bit of stoning, crushing and burning at the stake, or the more passive societal ostracism of the scarlet A.

Thos: Jesus said, "He who is without sin cast the first stone" for a reason - ever wonder what that is?

This thread has gone too far. The nastiness I've read makes me think that the so-called professors of "recovery" need to go purge their hearts of some rage toward their currently or formerly wayward spouses (or ex spouses). This is pure poison, emotional transferrence. Noodle, get yourself some therapy real quick because what you wrote is clearly deranged.

DC, I don't condone your actions toward your marriage, but I definitely don't condone your husband's emotional outburst. There will come a day when you understand from the inside out, the whole big picture. And I'm glad you had the courage to do the right thing by your husband and tell him the truth. Someday soon, I'm hoping that he and you both agree it was the right thing to do.

<small>[ November 01, 2004, 07:42 AM: Message edited by: KaylaAndy ]</small>

noodle,

I've seen alot of WSs come and go on these boards...very few have the courage to confess an undiscovered affair and face what they know will be the pain and condemnation of their spouses. None of us remain perfect in the eyes of God...it is something not one of us is capable of. And Dr. Harley says time and again...that EVERY single one of us is capable of an affair under the right conditions. We can resist sin with all our being, and still we will be imperfect because that is what we are. Sin is sin....and your sins are as horrid as anyone elses. Our mistakes will litter our lives. What is unique and brave...is the sinner who will face rather than run from his sin, and return to grace. Obviously, you want your pound of flesh...but you will not have it....it isn't yours to take. It's not enough that she will be punished in her life...you want to exact your own.

Dreamcatcher is one of the very few WS who didn't leave her husband in the dark...though she could have. She could have told him nothing, left him happy, and faced no consequences from him. She took the advice of this board to confess and stand before her husband and her God. She did that, only to return to condemnation from folks who pretend they are exalted enough to be her judge and jury....even though she did NOT condemn the retalitory actions of her husband.

I am disgusted by some of the images in your post and have every intention of reporting it to the moderators.

I am always amazed by people who are so good at deciding how others should be punished while they practice the sin of pride...pretending they are above their own humaness and frailty. I was betrayed by my husband...and I felt the same hurt and devastation that anyone does. However, I would have welcomed honesty from him....I begged him for it. It wouldn't have spared me the pain, but it would have kept my respect for him, and some comfort in knowing that he still had a conscience that didn't allow him to simply go on with his life happily after betraying me. His duplicity added insult to injury...and I questioned the core morality of someone who could live everyday knowing what he did and still be happy. It would have eased my pain on some level to believe that he was still honorable enough to at least give me the choice on whether to stay or leave him.

Dreamcatcher made a mistake...she made a choice that has the potential to destroy her marriage. But through her confession, she has given her husband a choice as well...and that is more honorable than to leave him clueless and vulnerable. He may yet decide that he can't live with her actions...but he GETS to decide with the real facts. I wish I had been given those facts...rather than discovered them and known not only did my husband have an A....but he was a liar with no conscience who tricked me into treating him well while he dishonored me. My recovery and my pain, would have been more bearable if I had could have believed he had some shred of decency and courage enough to come to be and be honest.

oops - backstroke

<small>[ November 01, 2004, 07:40 AM: Message edited by: KaylaAndy ]</small>

Melody,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Before we all stomp off with our skirts in a huff, let's take another look at noodle's statement lest we completely miss her point. [and many of you did] She never recommended killing the WS. She said that punishment could not be assigned because there really is no punishment to fit the gravity of the crime [adultery].</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No Melody, that is not what she said. She said the violence is deserved and that no matter what the betrayed wanted to do...it would be deserved and that dc should have no protection from it:

It is the belief that the violence visited on a WS by a BS is underserved.

Sorry..no. If he wanted to drag you and OM into the center of town, tie you together and carve his rage into your flesh before lighting you on fire ..you deserve it. This is the treatment that your actions have *earned* so to speak. You have committed a crime..a very real crime against another person..you do not deserve any protection from the reactions of the bereaved.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Her points were not cruel,</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes they are.

The trouble with assigning punishment for the WS is that there really isn't anything that could be done to you..that would be the measure of what you have done. Even killing you isn't enough.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">they were insightful and accurate; perhaps hard to hear for some, but let's not miss out on an outstanding message by hastily jumping to the wrong conclusion about her remarks.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I see...will you continue to encourage WSs to confess and then when they do...encourage folks to attack them with this kind vitriol and obscenity. If we are EVER to truly fight infidelity in this country we have got to be able to reach out to every part of this triangle and help people to live authentically. Why would any WS coming to this board EVER confess again if they can predict this kind of treatment.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Noodle, your post was outstanding and I thank you for posting it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Noodle...your post is disgusting...and it doesn't belong on a support forum where we try and help people to face the consequences of infidelity and begin to live authentically again. How will we ever reach WSs if we condone violence agains WS who have the courage to confess???

<small>[ November 01, 2004, 08:01 AM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>