</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by star*fish:
<strong> No Melody, that is not what she said. She said the violence is deserved and that no matter what the betrayed wanted to do...it would be deserved and that dc should have no protection from it:

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Starfish, no where did she recommend violence as an appropriate response. That was never her point. Her point was that no amount of punishment could compensate for the crime and that violence is futile. That is not the same as recommending violence. In fact, she advocates against it with:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Just because something is deserved..does not make it sustainable or healthy.

I think we can all agree that you must protect yourself and not allow attacks to be made on your person.

I think we can all agree that this is destructive to the possibility of future recovery. It's an unhealthy pattern. It fails to bring real resolution."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think her points were cruel at all,unless taken out of context. They only emphasized the abject, raw cruelty of adultery and the destruction left in its path.

<small>[ November 01, 2004, 08:22 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

Edited:

* Infidelity is the worst thing that ever happens to most BS. It is a pain unimaginable to most WS and folk untouched by Infidelity.
* There is no punishment that can put right the damage - it is too great a damage for any repair but love.
* When recovered BS and WS can go on to be eonderful people once again so not killing them on d-day may have been a good thing ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />


Peace everyone. {{{MB}}}

Deamcatcher forgive us, we know not what we do. The pain is SO bad for some of us BS that we can say things in a very hurtful way.

Forgive us. All blessings to you and know the truth can never hurt you or your H like lies can.

Thats what my 10,000 word essay ,meant to say !

<small>[ November 01, 2004, 09:47 AM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I don't think her points were cruel at all,unless taken out of context. They only emphasized the abject, raw cruelty of adultery and the destruction left in its path. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Which might have some validity if we were dealing with a WS who was unrepentent, duplicitious and unaware of the destruction they caused..is this dream catcher???? If that were true, that she didn't understand the depth of her sin, then we might need to re-emphasize the cruelty of it so that we could help her face this...but to do this NOW??? After people convinced her to confess??? And to do it with imagery like "wiggling on a penis" or "carrying around the carcass of her marriage" My God! Marriages survive infidelity. She has NOT killed her marriage. She is not a "killer mourning the loss of her knife" and she does not "deserve" to be killed or beaten.

Noodles post completely ignores, denies and invalidates ONE CENTRAL FACT....that dreamcatcher went knowingly, humbly, with shame and guilt so huge that she could not keep it inside any longer...and confessed at the urging of this board. Is there no redemption in that? God says there is. The bible says there is. And all of those good folk who told her to do it said there was. Then THIS....This is a travesty.

I have never been as disappointed with this board, or as ashamed of the treatment of a poster as I am today.

I am not clear on why anybody sits and contemplates how on earth the "scales" could possibly even be balanced, or evened out. I think in this country, we have a vicious "need" to try and mete out justice, or fairness.

Infidelity is THE most painful thing I have ever lived through - it is also the most painful thing my FWH has ever lived through - except, his pain was self-inflicted.

I don't even think an A is about the BS at all. I think A's hurt us terribly as BS, BUT, it is the WS losing themselves - just as an alcoholic loses themselves in a "bottle."

Now that my H has the whole picture, has totally defogged, HE has to face himself EACH DAY. And I know some days, that is not easy. Everyone has a dark side, and he paraded his around to me, and his kids, and his family and friends, for several months. We all got a good look. And he is embarrassed, too. AND, he has seen other WS, up close and personal in our own lives recently, who are totally fogged in still, and he literally cannot believe he was once actually where they are right now.

Nobody deserves any of the pain associated with infidelity.

When my boys do or say something mean to somebody, and I ask them why, often they will say, "That other person said it to me first! That other person did it to me first!"

And I say, "And how did that make you feel?"

Spidey

Sorry..no. If he wanted to drag you and OM into the center of town, tie you together and carve his rage into your flesh before lighting you on fire ..you deserve it. This is the treatment that your actions have *earned* so to speak. You have committed a crime..a very real crime against another person..you do not deserve any protection from the reactions of the bereaved.

This entire paragraph chills me to the bone. It is disgusting, and untrue! (And it is not taken out of context, it is the paragraph in it's entirety). It is irresponsible and dangerous to voice an opinion such as this on a forum where people are trying to recover from infidelity, both the WS and the BS. Where we are trying to forgive and be forgiven. I agree with Star*fish 100%. Where is your compassion Noodle? I have lived through a lot of hell in my life, not the least of which was being betrayed, but I would rather cut my own arm off than see my ex or my current BF, or any of my less than perfect human friends hurt in any way.

As someone earlier said, (I think Spidey), I can not sit any longer on the sidelines. "Put me in coach!"

Mel, after reading your first post on this thread, I was going to give you a big grin and say "You're absolutely right! Every post (to that point) was an open discussion, logical, feelings from both the WS and BS alike. It was learning.

Then it started into the "Did DC desrve this?" "Did DC's BH deserve that?" etc etc.

WHY ARE WE TRYING TO FIND THE "CORRECT" AND ASSIGN PUNISHMENT FOR SINS THAT HAVE BEEN COMMITTED?!?!? WHO DO WE THINK WE ARE, GOD?

This forum is about helping each other, through experiences, mainly, and even about some self-exposing opinions. DC called out to us, and...well, I'm not going to rehash the entire thread.

DC...it took alot of strength , courage and conviction to confess to your H. I think if you get one thing--only one thing (but there's plenty other "messages" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> )--it's that recovery WILL BE DIFFICULT and the pain your H has been handed is completely overwhelming.

Someone else posted early on (sorry, don't know name and before I lose my thought! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) that it's going to be very difficult for you to experience recovery and ask forgiveness from your H when you may not have forgiven yourself. I can relate (and not just with the A) completely.

Please keep posting...more importantly, keep the faith!

Best wishes and God bless.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I told him because the guilt was eating at me..I want to be right with God and even though I know He forgives me, I wanted H to forgive me too. Had to tell him before that could happen though...didn't turn out quite like I had planned. I don't know FL, I don't feel any better since my confession, actually I feel more empty than ever. My soul feels dark again, not much differently than it did while in the A and during the time when I was in withdrawal. It just feels dark. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dreamcatcher - the hazards of "group therapy" are well known. They are particulary difficult when the devastation is fresh and the healing hasn't even begun yet.

I note from your post that you believe in God and in forgiveness. I assume from your stated desire that your husband forgive you also that you are both Christians. If that is the case, I would suggest you begin a new thread seeking Christian advice and understanding.

Regardless, one thing that I want to impress upon you is that there is going to be much forgiveness needed, all around. Affairs are devastating beyond measure and are totally annihilating to the BS initially. If I told you all the horrible thoughts that ran through my mind after learning of my wife's affair, you might be shocked. A "base, cornered, frightened, animal" would probably be a close analogy. I thought seriously of violence, including shooting the OM. It is a "deranged" state of mind. But when someone already has Christ in their lives, there is an anchor, a "lifeline" back to sanity. The realization that only with God's help can this marriage "be put back together" is both humbling and hopeful.

DC, right now, as strange as it might seem to you, you are ahead of your husband in the "dealing with it" process and the "reconciliation" process. Also, there are some who have advocated or stated the misconception that a BS should never show their anger. I strongly disagree with that. The OPERATIVE phrase, biblically speaking, is "be angry, but in your anger do not also sin."

Part of "affair proofing" a marriage from future problems is that the WS needs to seen the depth of the anger and pain that a BS feels. It is part of the "I never want to be the cause of such pain for my spouse ever again" process. No, it's NOT a pleasant time. It's simply one of the "consequences" that attend the sin. We go THROUGH the hard things, not around them. That is how we begin to heal and to build a better marriage.

Telling your husband was hard, but needed. Since you have stated that he is NOT a violent man, there was no reason to fear for your life. One of the reasons we are admonished not to give in to "drunkeness" is because it is a sin also. It leads to a "freeing" of our sinful nature and a loss of vigilance and control. As with all things that let our human nature "take control," we often do things that we later regret very much.

Remember this operative phrase for moving forward; "love covers over a multitude of sins."

DC, the storm is raging in your husband's mind right now. A temporary separation can also have some very positive results, especially when one has time to be "alone with God." So pray for God to talk to him while he is out right now.

Here is the one word that both you and your husband are going to need in abundance, but it's not easy, so it will take firm commitment from both of you. PATIENCE.

It is going to take a long time to deal with the issues and to rebuild your marriage. Don't succumb to impatience. I understand your desire for your husband to forgive you, and he will, as Christ has forgiven him. Climbing out of the emotional pit seems a daunting, perhaps impossible, task for him right now. But remember, Christ is the lifeline that is unbreakable and stretches down into the deepest pit to rescue someone. The "teaching and learning" are just beginning, but in the end you will both have a marriage that honors God. It is NOT that we stumble, sin, make wrong choices....it is picking ourselves up off the ground, confessing our sins and repenting, and following God in humble obedience.

Your chilren will see that too. You can both be very powerful examples to them of God's love. I know, just ask my 4 children who reacted much like your children upon first learning of the affair.

God bless.

Hmmmm...it seems to me that dreamcatcher's situation, as she described it, has stirred up a wasp nest of emotions from both BS's and WS's here...

And it would appear that noodle's post has torn that wasp nest open...

Let me just say, that as I read noodle's post, that I understood why noodle wrote it, and that it would be taken by everyone in different ways, especially dreamcatcher. Many of us are forlorn here...

I can say, with great certainty, that a lot of BS's have, at one time or another, fantasized about causing physical, mental, and/or emotional harm to the WS or OP. The BS pain and utter despair is so great, they sometimes feel that it can only be outweighed by the pain and suffering of the offending parties. But revenge is a double edged sword, and no one truly recovers from it. I say this, knowing full well that I felt this way. I wanted to make my WW suffer mentally, and emotionally, and for both of the OM she had, to suffer in everyway I could imagine.

But...I got over it-for the most part. And now I want my WW to get the help she needs. I still wish for ill will upon the OM, but it would seem that karma or God is taking care of that for me (OM is in jail).

Romans 12:19-21- 19 "Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave room for the wrath of God; for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." 20 No, "if your enemies are hungry, feed them; if they are thirsty, give them something to drink; for by doing this you will heap burning coals on their heads." 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good" (I'm not trying to preach, I cannot promise that I could avoid vengeance in every situation).

And I shall try to overcome evil with good, by trying to save my marriage as best as I can. It seems that dreamcatcher wishes to do the same, as well as most of us on MB.

noodle, IMO, was just explaining the irrevocable harm an A has on everyone invloved, especially the BS. Entire cultures have actually gone through with doing the harm that she described:Hebrews, Muslims, African tribes, etc. And this paragraph:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have put your H in an position where there is no such thing as "win". He will lose no matter what. He has lost already. What he has lost can not be redeemed. You have willfully destroyed something vital in him..something that he will grieve the loss of. His pain is measured in decades. His hell is eternal. The conflict does not end if he chooses to remain with you. What a sadistic choice, no? Stay and fix the marriage thereby abandoning all hope of ever truly moving on...or leave you and lose all of the history that you have built together..just undo a very significant portion of his life in order to cut his losses </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">speaks volumes to me. That is the very dilemma that I find myself in, and dreamcatcher will have to accept that her H may feel the same way. I have said, in another thread, that I am a walking paradox...in love with, but despising my WW at the same time. I may be able to save my M, I may not...but what has happened, cannot be undone. It is there, forever. Even if I D my WW, and marry someone else, and even if that M is 1000 times what my 1st M was...the fact that I was cheated on twice will be there with me forever. It may even affect any future relationship, because my ability to trust another person has been tarnished so.

Any person even contemplating having an A, and even if your S is the kindest, gentlest person who would never hurt a fly...just know this. You can never be certain what they are capable of, once thier soul has been run through by the sword of adultery. There are times that I think it would have been better for my WW to shoot me in the face, than have an A.

dreamcatcher, i implore you to keep coming here, regardless of what I, or anyone else has said here. If you can save your marriage, then please do it. I think that noodle, and everyone else, were just recalling thier own pain, while learning of yours and your H's. Take care, and hang in there.

Dimmu

DC,

I don't post much anymore and I usually don't read threads that are several pages long but I've gone through this whole thing now and quite frankly I'm sickened by what some have posted.

If this has in any way led you to decide NOT to post here anymore.....please reconsider.

I think what EVERYONE here needs to remember is that this board is not meant to be a "group therapy" session. IT'S A DISCUSSION BOARD.

It's meant to be a place where those that have been affected in one way or another by an affair can come and share and hopefully recieve support. You can ask for and recieve advice, but what you should remember is that you are seeking advice from people that have been in your situation or have been in a similar situation. That doesn't really mean that the advice given is really the advice you need to be taking. You are recieving advice based on experiences....and while most of us have similar experiences....each one is different in it's own way. As a BS...and a FWW....I am in no way qualified to tell you what you should do...the only thing that I can do is tell you my experience and what worked for me. What you get and take from that is your decision alone. You might not get the same results that I recieved from my own experiences. I think that is something that alot of people on here forget sometimes.

Being a BS or a FWW doesn't make me a liscensed IC or MC...it merely gives me experiences in that field...a field I would rather not had experience in....but none the less....I have it. I am entitled to tell you what my opinion of a sitation is...and to tell you what I think you should or should not do.....but I would be speaking from my own experiences only.....not your specific situation.

I am not here to judge.....or to tell you or your H that you did something horrible or that you deserve this or that for what either of you have done. It's not my place to say what either of you deserve or to even think of any sort of punishment. I think that those that seem to focus on that should also remember that by condemning you and saying these things on your thread need to remember that by saying these things to you.....they should be saying these things to their WS's also....and they should be condemning them in the same way.

Please remember that this board should not take the place of counseling that you may need. It's a place for us to share our experiences.

Just my 2 cents...whatever it's worth.

Which usually isn't much around here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong> sad, you can disagree all you want, but she clearly did not say any such thing. I think she hit a nerve with a few folks who were looking for a reason to dismiss her post. I believe she hit a sore point and instead of responding to her points, it's much easier to mischaracterize her statements and storm off in a huff.

If you disagree with her, then why not lay out, calmly and rationally, why you refute her points? We are not junior high girls here and I think are capable of rational, mature behavior, are we not? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ML, Rational mature behavior is not congruent with the fantasy that Noodle wrote. Shock value, is, in fact, junior high girl drama.

And, ML, I would expect better of you, as a Christian, you know better than to encourage a train of thought on the lines of "Vengeance is MINE, not Thine!," Thus saith Noodle!

Frankly, I thought better of Noodle, and I especially thought better of you!

Kay,

ML has been consistent. She has a long history of excusing violence performed by the BS. She, in fact, tried to run down her then husband with her car after she discovered his affair (she posted this little tidbit a ways back . . . I guess to show that even the chosen can get a little agitated).

Read some of her posts . . . they are remarkably consistent.

I think it may be time to quit this board and venture over to Penny's. Her board is sound and is mainly devoid of all the saints that seem to infect MB.

ML,

I hate to disagree with you but it is as plain as day what Noodle meant when she posted the following:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think something has been taken as a given that really..isn't.

It is the belief that the violence visited on a WS by a BS is underserved.

Sorry..no. If he wanted to drag you and OM into the center of town, tie you together and carve his rage into your flesh before lighting you on fire ..you deserve it. This is the treatment that your actions have *earned* so to speak. You have committed a crime..a very real crime against another person..you do not deserve any protection from the reactions of the bereaved.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The evidence is irrefutable.

<small>[ November 01, 2004, 12:46 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Good LORD (and I'm an atheist):

You people might find this interesting:

When I was in Italy last month watching BBC news, there was a story on there about why Turkey was being denied membership in the EU. There were a number of reasons, but the one that I remember was that "adultery is still punished as a crime".

Now, why that? I think it's because in many places of the world, it's okay 2 maim or kill adulterers, particularlly women. Do they "deserve" that? I think not.

Bob Pure is right on, and what this board should be about, first and foremost. COMPASSION. For EVERYONE.

The goal is 2 heal the hurts with love. And us "seasoned" BSs know very well that we're far from "blameless," in having allowed, unwittingly perhaps, the M 2 get in2 the state it was in when the WS chose 2 have the A.

You can be a victim if you want 2. It's your choice. But it makes focusing on the healing a lot harder. I choose not 2 be the victim of my W's A anymore than I want her 2 be the victim of my withdrawl over the years. She "deserves" my love, not my vindictiveness.

Same goes for everyone else.

-ol' 2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
And, ML, I would expect better of you, as a Christian, you know better than to encourage a train of thought on the lines of "Vengeance is MINE, not Thine!," Thus saith Noodle!
]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Kayla, just as with Starfish you are mischaracterizing her statements. She clearly did not recommend violence and never said what you are saying. In fact, she recommended against it. So no, there is nothing rational or mature about this frenzied little witch hunt.

Comfortably Numb wrote:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ML has been consistent. She has a long history of excusing violence performed by the BS. She, in fact, tried to run down her then husband with her car after she discovered his affair (she posted this little tidbit a ways back . . . I guess to show that even the chosen can get a little agitated). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh baloney. There isn't a single statement you can point to where I have advocated violence. My comments here are not an advocation of violence.

Many non-violent people, such as myself, do react violently when we find out about the affair. That doesn't mean we a) advocate violence or b) are violent people. There are many very healthy, normal non-violent people on this forum were violent upon discovery.

This nasty little cheapshot reflects more about you than it does me. Bad form, CN......

<small>[ November 01, 2004, 01:22 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

I posted this on the Starfish thread but it probably would serve better here. I want to add that I am worried about Noodle but didn't want to say it before because I had the thought that it might have sounded condescending but I don't mean it THAT way at all! {{{Noodle}}}. DreamCatcher {{{hugs to you, too}}} please continue to post, we ALL need to cut each other some slack...each and every one of us...good practice for *real life* actually! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok just read the entire thread and was shocked to find that it was NOODLE who posted the inflamatory post. Her posts are generally balanced and well thought out..this was very out of character IMO. Considering she just delivered a baby a short while ago, the first thought that would even remotely explain this sort of completely uncharacteristic post was that she may possibly be suffering from PPD, post partum depression.

Noodle, don't mean to presume and diagnose you here but having been through it myself and having acted VERY uncharacteristicly in the process I hope that you will consider this a possibility at least. Sometimes we all get so caught up in the infidelity/marriage thing that a underlying or newly presenting medical condition may escape notice. You just don't seem "yourself" Noodle. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> KB

* nope. Not leaving a heartfelt post in THIS schoolyard p1ssng contest. I will not grace it with even my ramblings *

<small>[ November 01, 2004, 01:56 PM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

ML,

Your record is there for all to see.

Keep up to good work, I can hardly wait to see what gems you next present.

<small>[ November 01, 2004, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: Comfortably Numb ]</small>

dreamcatcher,

Are you still there? Are you alright? Please don't let a few posts keep you from seeking help and support. There are many people on here, and not everyone shares each other's opinions. I know that you were already feeling down, and the flamewar that erupted on your thread doesn't help matters. But there are many, many people on here that are willing to help. Take care of yourself, and you and your H have my best wishes.

Dimmu

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Comfortably Numb:
<strong> ML,

Your record is there for all to see.

. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Then it shouldn't be hard to prove that I am an advocate of violence, should it? Please put your money where your mouth is, CN. Otherwise your claims are nothing more than slanderous gossip.

CN, here is your exact statement about me. I would like to see your proof since you seem to know something that no one who knows would ever say:

"ML has been consistent. She has a long history of excusing violence performed by the BS. She, in fact, tried to run down her then husband with her car after she discovered his affair (she posted this little tidbit a ways back . . . I guess to show that even the chosen can get a little agitated).

Read some of her posts . . . they are remarkably consistent. "