Okay, I might print this list and hold onto it as a "cheat sheet" when in the actual heat of the battle.

This will probably be my last communique until Monday A.M., and I will post an update then.

I'm continuing to find copies of my cheat sheets after 2 years. The battle mentality helped me a lot. I hope you find that it gives you strength.
I'll check in for you on Monday.

Okay, mimi, here's an update of the weekend.

Suffice it to say, the "coaching" from you on Friday came in handy today. I took WW to a fair last night that was having a rodeo. We both had a great time and WW looked really happy. Stuffed our faces with probably the worst food on Earth (Atkins non-compliant), but it was lots of fun. She drove us home about 1:00 AM while I was sound asleep (enjoying the cool night air). Got home, got in bed and snuggled dearly. Life is wonderful. She stayed in bed all night.

Saturday morning we got up and I went to the gym and told her I would like to take her to breakfast when I got back. We went to a little local grill we enjoy and while eating her cell phone rang. She didn't get it out of her purse in time and it stopped ringing. She looked at it and announced it was OM. A few minutes later I went to pay the check and came back to the table and she was sitting there talking to him on the phone!!! She got off quickly when I returned.

We did some shopping (for furniture, actually) and then to a quick lunch. While eating lunch, she abruptly said she felt herself slipping into a depression and felt like she was losing the battle. I asked if she would consider getting back on Paxil and she said that she did not want to be dependent on drugs and she wouldn't take A-D's any longer.

We came home and I went out to mow. I came back in the house and, you guessed it, WW is sitting here talking to OM. I told her I was going to the bookstore to read. She asked why and I told her that it was very disrespectful of her to talk to OM in my home and that it hurt me and made me feel unwanted. I told her I also thought it was very rude, disrespectful and unloving to call OM while having breakfast with H. I told her that our home is my place of refuge and peace, and I have no peace here when my W is talking to OM.

What pursued was a long conversation WITH NO LB'ing!!!! She said she understands why I feel the way I do, that she couldn't put up with what I have gone through, etc. She again asked if I could ever accept OM as a part of our life if he moved here. I told her no, that I didn't think would be the right thing to do. She asked if I would accept him if I knew it would end our marriage if I didnt'. I told her that accepting him into our marriage would be the wrong thing to do and I knew she didn't want a H who would knowingly do the wrong thing. She asked what I would do if OM moved here anyway. I told her that I had learned to face life one day at a time. She said that she felt like she could be happy with him, but that she would hurt so many people if she left. She said when she's with OM she doesn't need A-D's.

Ended by telling me that she is happy when she's with him and not when with me. I told her that I would do all I could to meet her EN's, and that she has a home here where she is loved and cherished and I want her to be comfortable and happy.

We prayed together for wisdom. A few minutes later she came up to me and hugged me and kissed me (on the neck, knowing I love that!)and asked "Would you marry me again if you knew I was going to be crazy someday?" I told her that I wouldn't hesitate to marry her again.

Then I grilled some steaks and we ate out on the deck. She looked happy !!!

Sunday after church we had lunch with both S's and DIL's. They came to our house for a while afterwards and we had a great time having them visit. They all left early afternoon.

We went out to dinner with some friends Sunday night, but WW seemed distant and distracted all day. Not any good conversation together, she seemed a bit blue.

Last night I heard her getting out of bed about 12:00 and I asked if she was going to talk to OM and she said yes. I told her I wished she wouldnt't and that she would come back to bed. A few minutes later, she returned. I asked why she was back so soon and she said that was what I had asked her to do. I woke up again about an hour later and she was gone again. I don't know what time she came back to bed as I fell asleep.

That is a summary of the weekend with WW.

<small>[ November 01, 2004, 08:42 AM: Message edited by: Georgia Guy ]</small>

A summary of the weekend with WW...

Great job, Georgia!

Your situation is a lot like mine was. My FWH was going throught a depression and the FOW was his antidepressant. He was going through a midlife crisis and says she even saved him from suicide.

What we have in Georgia is drug addiction. Unfortunately, it is difficult to break. The only answer is for her to stop all contact with him, cold turkey. Then she will have to go through withdrawal. Read over the addictive aspects of an A in the Harley book. This is a concept that you will need to really understand and buy. The addiction is a real thing. This is an unhealthy cure that she has found for her depression just as if she was getting high on cocaine. So she goes and gets her quick fix at night on the phone rather than finding a healthy solution to what is going on with her. Absolutely NO CONTACT is the only answer! It will be vital for you to communicate to her that is what you expect!!! NO IF ANDS OR BUTS!!!!

Talk with her that you both need to work together on a plan for this to occur. An ideal scenario would be turning off her cell phone.

Get it? Continue with PLAN A but also make it clear that marriage to you equuals a plan to no longer have contact with the OM ever again in her lifetime!!!! Although contact with him feels good to her, it is contributing to her self-destruction. Yes, just like cocaine, it feels good but it making her go crazy. Doesn't it sound crazy that she thinks that you will be accepting of another man in your relationship with her?

GGuy - You are doing GREAT!

Also, I understand the "calling," the "friendship" angle all too well.

Stick by your boundary...NO other man is acceptable in your marriage. Marriage is an exclusive covenant with only husband, wife, and God in it.

The patience you are exhibiting WILL pay great dividends. Your wife is saying all the same things my wife used to say....all fogbound and an attempt to "manipulate" you to get what she wants.

....forsaking all others.....

That is what marriage is about. Stay on course!

God bless.

Edited because the System double posted.

<small>[ November 01, 2004, 10:33 AM: Message edited by: ForeverHers ]</small>

FH -I only wish I could exibit patience at all times...but unfortunately I still LB from time to time. I actually went back and read my "Plan" this weekend to remind myself of the finer points.

Mimi - Sounds like we've had mirror images of the same experiences, with the exception that WW has had no PA (yet). I am convinced that given the opportunity, she would. Actually, she told me once that she would like to sleep with him because that is how she "expresses her love".

Anyway, definitely MLC going on (for both of us). Our youngest S was married 3 months ago. I think I have taken this very hard as we have 2 boys that I was always very close to. WW has taken it hard because she was always a stay at home Mom (except p/t work at the school they attended).

Did your H take A-D's? As my WW keeps bringing up this suicide thing...I'm really concerned about her state of mind. What can you tell me about how your H ever did (or did he?) get out of his depressed state?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">FH -I only wish I could exibit patience at all times...but unfortunately I still LB from time to time. I actually went back and read my "Plan" this weekend to remind myself of the finer points. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey GGuy, no one does it perfectly all the time. You are "entitled" to a "slip up" now and then, especially when the "slip up" continues to reinforce that the "option" to end the marriage is HERS, not yours. It is her ACTIONS and disrespect for your marriage and the OM's marriage that is that is inappropriate and that can cause the failure of both marriages.

Don't get angry and lose control, but at the same time, don't let her make statements that are fundamentally wrong and injurious to ANY marriage, much less to your own. She needs to KNOW that there are Boundaries and Standards, even if she can only see dimly through her fog right now.

Under NO circumstances can YOU ever be friends with the OM. It would be like you asking her to be friends with someone who had raped her. Not going to happen and is beyond "illogical." She is going to have to CHOOSE one of you, but both is not a viable option. It's going to hurt regardless of the choice, so what you are doing is laying the groundwork for the healing that is going to be needed.

God bless.

mimi -

I also see that you had a "legal separation" in May 03. What precipiated that? Was it when you enacted the "tough love" concept? Or did H say that he wanted that?

I agree wholeheartedly with FOREVER who is restating my Point of View.

I also want to restate the importance of you understanding the addiction concept. That should be the focus rather than her depression. In her foggy way of thinking, the OM is the cure for her depression. However, the relationship with him is making the depression worse. She keeps going to him for quick fixes which make her HIGH but do not cure the underlying problem. Don't try to explain this to her. She is not thinking rationally at this point, given that she is a drug addict, so she will not believe you. Unfortunately, she will have to come to this realization on her own. Just like an alcoholic, she is powerless and will need to totally separate from him in order to recover.

I know this because I lived it for a year and Steve H. had to hammer this into my head. My FWH did not take antidepressants. He asked for a legal separation and eventually went to live with the OW. That's when I finally did PLAN B. I went completely dark and no longer enabled his relationship with her. Guess what he learned from this lession? When he was with the drug dealer 24/7, he became even more depressed. He didn't have his time with me to feel better about what he was doing. He had to live and face the fact that he had abandoned his wife and, plus, she could not possible meet ALL of his needs.

Try to figure out what need the OM is meeting. It may not be what you are thinking are what she is saying. I was shocked to learn that my FWH was attracted by the NEEDS that I did not know were important to him. When he hit MIDDLE AGE, he changed and now wants MORE AFFECTION for example. I also learned that he tried to make the OW into the person I was when we first began dating. So maybe think back to the way you were then. He wanted that thrill back again.

I am still that person but I forgot that I am that person. We both became too bogged down in parenting and thought we had to give up that part of ourselves. Maybe some of this happened to you two.

LOVE MUST BE TOUGH ended up being part of my PLAN A. Dobson recommends calmly agreeing to a separation when it is requested. That blew my FWH away when I stated (while dying inside), something to the effect, "I don't want you if you don't want me. I only want you back when you want to be with me." He never forgot this and began to respect me more. In fact, he did come back when he decided that he wanted to be with me.

Hope this helps.

<small>[ November 01, 2004, 11:46 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Okay, mimi, your comments from the other thread:

"Georgia: .... I wanted to see my FWH as SUPERMAN. Now I'm learning that it's OK for him to be vulnerable and sensitive. That's a good thing that came from the A."


This is kinda scary...the way you keep coming up with stuff like this.

I've always considered my W to be nearly perfect and, as she says, I put her up on pedestal. She is telling me now that the person she is (a WW) is the way she has always been. I don't believe that for a moment (fog), but...I do believe I may have held her to such a high standard that I may have inadvertantly put too many expectations on her. She was always "Supermom" and "Superwife". (There is probably a lesson that may not be widely discussed).

Now it's like I'm the one who is having to really carry the torch for the first time and all of W's "warts" are really showing. For the first time, she's feeling more like she can express who she is and what's she's thinking without have to protect her "image".

This all doesn't solve the days problems, but it helps to put them in perspective.

BTW - I'm glad your helping me is helping you. It seems like we're traveling the same narrow road, sorry you're having to travel it first and "clear the path", but I do appreciate your input.

I think our situations are very much the same in that we are dealing with midlife issues.

You continue to be very much in the struggle of fignting for your marriage so I don't want to veer you off course by overanalyzing right now. Your WW has to work on her addiction before she can take a look at her issues.

However, I, just like you, put my husband up on a pedestal. He began to try to live up this image with me. With the OW, he could be freer. He let loose his bad side. It' important, though, to remember the value and significance of your WW's history with you, though. That's what the OP cannot compete with. That's why they want the both of us. It was important for me to learn the art of continuing to affirm his GOOD image while ACCEPTING and ACKNOWLEDGING his vulnerable side. She did not learn the concept of doing both. Does this make sense? So he now wants to PLAY with me and ROMANCE me. I also offer him the opportunity of being legitimate and upstanding in the community, etc.

mimi - WW & I are both dealing with MLC. However, I have to kinda put mine on the back burner right now due to issues with WW. (I'll fall apart later).

I am amazed at some of the things I hear my W say these days. I occassionally hear her use language that would have brought swift discipline should either of our boys said something similar. When she does this, I hurt inside but I don't condemn her. I know that OM would accept this, and I know OM has expressed his slight "surprise" that she doesn't drink. As she has always seemed a bit O/C, I think if she were to go to OM she would stand a good chance of becoming an alcoholic. Like you say (and yes, I think I understand your comments), I try to walk a fine line of accepting whatever she does (withour condoning) while gently commenting on how many people she has positively impacted over the years (she works at a Christian day school).

I do understand that I am in a struggle for my marriage. Everything I do is frightening to me. There are great variations in opinion on the MB board as to what I should do (Plan A, Plan B, accept, condemn, etc.) I was HUGELY encouraged by her "neck kiss" and question about marrying her again because I had just gone through some intense "HONESTY AND OPENNESS" with her bawling like a baby (crocodile tears included). That whole scenario was a direct result of the "playbook" we developed on Friday. THANKS !!

Now, the hard part. If I do clearly say that all contact with OM must cease forever, her response is NOT going to be another "neck kiss". That's the part I need to explore with you next.

Are you ready to speculate on possible outcomes and actions?

Did you consider that the "neck kiss" came from gaining her respect? Notice how she agreed to stop talking to him because you asked her to.I had to realize, with help from folks on MB, that I didn't have my WH anyways if he wanted to share me with someone else.

Remember that in conjunction with requesting that she stop contact with the OM you are also continuing with YOUR PLAN. BLOW HER MIND WITH YOUR PLAN!! Fine tune your plan.

An additional indirect request might be to ask her to turn the cell off in your presence. The goal is to cut off her source of the drug as much as possible.

By the way, to be more explicit, I've come to accept the new-found cursing that my FWH is doing. Also, I tolerate his new-found habit of a cocktail each evening. I was into encouraging him into being too much of goody-goody. This was the image I wanted him to have that he really did not feel comfortable with. At least, that's what he communicates to me now. Maybe, he's simply different in his middle age. On the other hand, I play up family, marital things that we do and have done together that it not true with the FOW. I reminisce about fun times we had raising the children. I remind him of him being there during our children's births. The focus is on what WE HAVE DONE TOGETHER that is meaningful and legitimate. We are so interconnected in ways that will never be true with him and the FOW. That is true for you and your WW. She probably won't want to hear this now directly from you because she is caught up in the fog. However, you can do things like look at pictures or play old songs, etc.

<small>[ November 01, 2004, 01:58 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

I strongly believe that is what the "neck-kiss" came from, hence my thanks to you for help with the plan.

Yep...I got it. That is the hard part for me (proably true for all of us), because it requires me to see things about myself that I've never seen before. But...I get the point.

On the cell phone issue, that is the first time that has ever happened. I suspect it happened because, as you may have noticed, she did not get out of bed Friday night the way she normally does. He probably wondered what had happened to her.

More on this later....W and I are going to meet and go vote (early).

Thanks again for the insight....I'll post again tomorrow AM if anything new happens.

I hope your situation continues to improve.

mimi - somehow I missed the last para of your last post before I responded.

I can't believe your FWH is now cursing and drinking (some). This is beginning to be like an old episode of "The Twilight Zone".

Hummm....don't go away, I wonder what else your FWH is now doing that I can expect from my WW.

mimi -

WW had a rough day at school yesterday. One of custodial staff got a little rude with her and she cried. She talked to the librarian about what happened and word got back to the administration. A long story short, the employee may get fired because this behavior has apparently happened to a lot of other folks also.

Anyway, that relates to our topic in that WW really unloaded on me about this whole thing. I'm so glad she still wants to tell me of her hurts / fears /frustrations. She doesn't want to see someone get fired because she was offended, etc.

Afterwards, she said that I hadn't told her anything about my day. So, instead of just telling her "stuff", I told her of a few incidents that I had found especially frustrating and how I was feeling stressed about this.

We were out until about 9:30, then WW took a shower while I read a little (HNHN) and watched the news.

When I got out of the shower, one guess for you where she was. I went to bed but couldn't sleep so I went upstairs to watch a DVD for a while. She came upstairs and told me she was going to bed and asked if I would come. I did, managed to keep a good attitude, but was about 1 inch from LB'ing. She came to bed and snuggled and said "I love snuggling with you". We both slept through the night. As you may remember, yesterday was OM's 1st day of full-time school for the next 7 months. He will be at school 8:00 - 5:00 5 days a week, so I think he's definitely going to be a lot less available.

Now, I need your advice on how to approach this NC thing with her. I know she's going to go ballistic, so help me explore the "what if's".

First, I know she's going to say "NO". What do I do then? Do I Plan B and move out, do I tell her she must leave? Do I continue with a "stellar" (I hope) Plan A - the one we developed on Friday?

I'm really in the "fog" myself as to how to handle this part.

All input is appreciated.

<small>[ November 02, 2004, 08:22 AM: Message edited by: Georgia Guy ]</small>

Georgia:

Here's a tidbit that I found extremely helpful when I was getting much valued help on this site. I would elicit help from the MB Veterans by labeling my posts, in caps, URGENT HELP NEEDED or HELP NEEDED NOW. I think it will be helpful for you to get others' perspectives on this. Maybe tell your story again briefly in a new post and make it urgent- which it is. It seems that you are at major turning point.

The question you are facing is how to handle the NO CONTACT.

Mimi -

It is very obvious that the experiences you and I have been (and are going) through have a lot of similarities.

As I said in one of my previous posts, there are a wide variety of opinions on the MB board. I am really gun shy about taking some of this advice. I'm sure there are many who would say I should already be in Plan B. You've advised (wisely, I think) otherwise.

Plus...you seem to have a real knack for being able to tell me what is in my W's head right now.

So....if you can stick with me long enough to develop the NC portion of this, I would like to do so. Then, I'd like to run that plan out on the MB board for comments / critique of others.

Will you do that?