Hey there,

Sounds like things are moving along very well. YES, let her know when her actions hurt you. YES, let her know when she says something that is hurtful. YES, let her know you do not like the continued contact.

She has asked "...what I would do if OM moved here anyway."

You say something like, "I love you, and would always love you. I am trying my best to wait out this A (call it what it is) and hope it will die out. If you do dont stop contact, or the OM moves here then there is no hope for our M to continue until contact ends or he or us move away." Lay it on the line...draw your line in the sand. Let her know you will not continue this limbo forever.

The WS would like nothing better to have their snuggle partner and thier phone partner too. THe best of both worlds, attention from two yet only giving half attention to either. THe OM can put up with it because it is more than he received before form her...you cannot, because you only have half a wife. Who wants that?

She is testing you to see if you are willing to allow her to continue this A and you will still be sweet and have you to fall back on...

How do you make it clear this will only continue for a short time then you will have to separate yourself from it?

You first ask of her what you want...no contact, MC, etc.

If she refuses, you repeat. You decide what the time frame will be like. Be very clear what your boundaries/rules are, then give her time to follow those. How much time? How long can you put up with it? A week? A month?

Then let her know you cannot continue this way. Ask her to move out until no contact, mc... is implemented.

Once she has moved out then give her the Plan B letter where you remove yourself from her as much as possible.

Yepo, you may not get to Plan B, she may 'get it" before then. Let's hope!!! She seems like a smart cookie, and genuinely caring...

Georgia:

I will help you all that I can. I've been thinking a lot about your situation and have some ideas.

However, first,I have some questions:

Does your WW express/acknowledge recognition that what she is doing is WRONG, i.e. disrespectful, hurtful of you, sinful, destructive, etc.? What does she say about this?

Have you let her know how you FEEL about what she is doing?

Who pays the cell phone bill? Why does she need to have it on her 24/7? Can the cell phone be turned off? This is leading to taking away her access to the drug.

You're still going to be in PLAN A. Part of YOUR PLAN will be to have some kind of discussion with her regarding your BOUNDARIES. The discussion will generally involve requesting that the two of you work together as a TEAM to put an ending to this A and begin recovery of your marriage. That might mean turning off the cell or changing the number for example. She will have to hear that this cannot go on as is. She wants it to continue as it is, having the both of you, the OM on the phone and you in her bed.


Gaining the WS's respect is important! It was hard for me to believe, too. It makes us more attractive to the WS. I think it will be helpful for you to read LOVE MUST BE TOUGH by Dobson. You are a NICE GUY like me. Unfortunately, NICE GUYS finish last.


Another question? Does the OM have a wife? She needs to know about this.

So, are you suggesting that I give her some time frame, or just a generic "this isn't what marriage is intended to be, and I can't continue in this way for the remainder of my life" sort of statement? (Which, but the way, I have already done).

I know her desire, as we've had that conversation. She will not go to MC, she does not want me to leave, and she doesn't want to leave me. She wants me to accept him so we can all just be friends.

Furthermore, she has said that she would not leave her home, that I would have to be the one to leave if anyone left.

As for the time frame thing, I'm leaning toward the end of the year if Plan A doesn't separate WW + OM. Maybe I'm being selfish, but I'd like to get through the holidays with my family still intact.

Georgia:

I was interested in your WW's responses to your statements that such a marriage is not acceptable to you. Have you explicitly made that clear to her yet? What has been her response?

It's foggy, bizarre, irrational thinking for her to expect you to go along with being one big happy family with the OM and his wife. Your job will be to help her out of this insanity!!!

That's how our situation differs. My WH was able to acknowledge that what he was doing was wrong. He just didn't care because felt he had to be with the OW so badly. She was his rescuer, his savior. YUK!! However, he also wanted to be with me because I was the dutiful, kind, sweet "wifey", mother of his children.

We are still focusing on PLAN A. One step at the time. We are strategizing, developing a PLAN of ACTION.

What about the cell phone question?

<small>[ November 02, 2004, 12:41 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

That sounds like a great time frame. Even a little longer.

I would remind her that this not the way you want to live your M life. And be very firm about the fact you will NEVER be frineds with OM, and will never continue in a M with her continuing her friendship with OM.

Have a discussion with her about moving apart. Ask her if she has considered moving to where OM lives if he doesn't move here (I'm sure they have discussed it). Talk more about her moving out. If she ADAMANTLY says no, then you will start making plans. BUT, let her know if things do eventually work out in the M, if she has stayed in the house and continued her A then you would want to sell the house. Let her know it would be better if she were to move out in case things work out, there would be no memories in the house...

Tough, tough, tough. What you are doing is killing hte M the way it is now, only to replace it with a BETTER M. You may have to get to Plan B, but right now, gush attention on her.

I would say that I haven't made it so clear as to "draw the line in the sand". In other words...no deadline, but that this isn't acceptable. Her response to me has indicated (also in general terms) that I can stay or leave...it's my perogative.


"That's how our situation differs. My WH was able to acknowledge that what he was doing was wrong. He just didn't care because felt he had to be with the OW so badly. She was his rescuer, his savior. YUK!!"

Actually, my WW has had "moments" when she has said that she knows what she is doing is wrong, but that she is to the point that she doesn't care anymore and her happiness is in him. And then at other times (which is most of the time), she will tell me that they both know that God brought them together for a purpose and that it is part of His plan for them to be together. She says that only gives them 2 options....1)leave their spouses (which they don't want to do, or 2)all of us move to the same town so we can all be together.

On the cell phone issue...I don't really agree that this is an issue. Their long talks are actually an internet voice hook-up. I don't think OM calls her on her cell phone. The incident Saturday was the 1st time I know of that happening.

I agree that Plan A is still where it's at, but...

if part of Plan A is to expect NC, and that condition is not met by WW, then what happens next?

Plan A with contact continuing...?

SHMI - Yes, she and OM have indeed talked about her moving there. She tells me that she would love to be there with him but that her leaving would hurt so many people, plus that is not the way she was "raised" and she can't do that.

Do we all (and anyone else who wishes to join in) agree that I should Plan A to the max while concurrently talking about the likelihood that we will have to separate as the M, as is, cannot continue forever?

Georgia:

I want to warn you to slow down. I've been trying to encourage you to believe that there will not be a quick fix and to let you know that this is a long battle. I think you are jumping the gun in trying to think past your present PLAN.

A lot of what I'm suggesting is what I learned in my counseling with Steve Harley. Of course, my situation is different than yours. However, a lot of what you are facing is the same. The similarities are that we have longstanding marriages with a lot of emotional connections and history in our marriages. There's the middle-age issue. Also, it sounds like your WW is strongly addicted to the OP as medication for depression. What this sets up is her finding it difficult to disconnect from both you and him. Thus, a cake-eater. She needs both of you. She's trying to set up her world so that can happen. She's narcissistic like a drug addict. She cares only for herself.

I've done studying to come up with such realizations. I was not aware of all this when I was in your position, Georgia. I, like you, wanted to fix it and make my marriage all better again. Unfortunately, your marriage will never be the same but it can be better.

I don't care how she is keeping her hookup with him, internet or phone, getting that drug access removed would be ideal.

I would recommend having a GENERIC DISCUSSION with her at this point much like you would have had with your children when they were teenagers. Don't expect her to understand or agree. Just tell her the way it is. The way it is is as STILLMAKING IT SAYS but saying it in a loving way. "I love you. You are my life partner. God brought us together and I don't plan to stand by and let someone else bring us apart. Our marriage will not last this way. In order for us to stay married, it has to be just the two of us, etc. What I'm wanting us to do is WORK ON A PLAN TOGETHER to end your relationship with this person."

Put it even more simply than this but come up with a generic statement at this point that both of you can remember. Stick with this for awhile. Don't back down from it. Just like STILLMAKINGIT said, she is testing you just like a teenager. She is functioning on an adolescent or younger level so treat her that way.

Continue with your PLAN A. Steve H. wanted me to stick with MY PLAN as long as possible.

Put the ball in her court while you work on becoming stronger and stronger in your conviction that this is not OK with you. Getting stronger in that sense will prepare you for your next step whatever that step will be. ONE STEP AT THE TIME..

<small>[ November 02, 2004, 01:20 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Mimi -

You're right...I do need to slow down. Therefore, I will stop and evaluate all the wonderful input from the folks who have taken the time to respond.

It's time to take inventory...

I must say, your comment "Unfortunately, your marriage will never be the same but it can be better." hit me like a ton of bricks. Do you mean better than it is now, or better than it was before?

I would think you are living a nightmare right now in your marriage.

Despite all the pain and trauma that I have gone through, my marriage is actually better now than it was before the A. That's me being really honest with myself. I hated that I had to go through all of this to get to this point.

Okay, one last comment from me today.

This is me wallowing in self-pity, but I'm going to do it anyway....(just once, then I'll quit).

The hardest thing is that at one time we faced life as a team . We were united, we were one....through good and bad times. We faced not having enough money to buy food, and we faced when relatives died. We experienced child birth together, and worked through all the issues of raising a family together. We held pet funerals in the back yard, and we rejoiced in seeing our boys take their first steps, as well as walk in to tell us they would be proposing marriage the next day. Whatever it was, it was "us" that faced it together. We were, no doubt, each others best friend.

Now it's like I live alone. There's a lady that lives in the house with me, but I hardly know her. I can't share my hurts, my thoughts, and I know that this person (alien is the right term) has absolutely no interest in being my "partner". I am going through this alone, without the comfort of my best friend to offer her wise counsel as to what she thinks we should do.

I actually miss my wife so much that I sit on our deck at night, when she's inside, and cry (without her knowing).

If anyone has seen the movie "The Notebook", that is the closest thing to my life that I could ever imagine....

There, I'm done...I'll not do it anymore.

Back to Plan A and the real world...

<small>[ November 02, 2004, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: Georgia Guy ]</small>

I would have said the same things as you, Georgia.

I had a storybook type of marriage,too. It's still even better now! I made the mistake of taking my marriage and my husband for granted because it was so wonderful and we did all those things that you talk about together.

I think that's why we were able to reconcile because my FWH was so much in love with me before. He is in love with me again. However, he was definitely kidnapped by an alien force for a couple of years. I had to work to get him back.

He really was gone. He's back. I guess it's better because it's like he has come back from the dead and I certainly no longer take him for granted.

<small>[ November 02, 2004, 02:40 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Georgia:
I found this old post of mine. Hope some of it helps. It was from January 04.

I can finally say that I wholeheartedly consider myself to have a MB Success Story. My marriage is better than it has ever been. So even if I only live to the end of this day I can thankfully say that I have spent some of the best times ever with my FWH in the past few weeks. I can say that I love him with all my heart and that he also loves me. This is not just a feeling. He keeps demonstrating his love to me, daily and hourly. It seems like a miracle but it took hard work. It continues to take hard work. PLAN A FOR LIFE!

I am so appreciative for the help I got on this forum. I wish I can give back at least some of the assistance that I have gotten here. I often do not feel adequate to do so. However, I hope any of this information that I can provide about my situation can help someone.

First, MY STORY , for those who are not familiar with it. My D-Day was one year ago. I found my FWH in a hotel with the OW. He stayed home for about 6 weeks after that all the while planning his move into a condo. During that 6 weeks, I did MY PLANa.k.a. PLAN A with coaching from Steve Harley, Melody Lane and Worthatry. It was a struggle. FWH picked fignts with me, continued to spend the weekend with the OW,etc. It was awful. I hate to recall that time at this point. However, I persevered.

When he decided to move out, I responded with the Dobson LOVE MUST BE TOUGH approach but continued with MY PLAN in any of his interactions with me. You see, he was consistently a cake-eater, never really wanting to stop all contact with me. A week after he moved out, I made a mistake of agreeing to see him on the side with him promising to come back home. I've since learned that he was mainly hooked into her, seeing me out of guilt. Also, my PLAN A had worked but he wasn't convinced that my changes were lasting.

He eventually came back home in April, moving in all the furniture from the condo except the bedroom suite, of course. This turned out to be a false reconciliation with him doing the same thing he did with her, maintaining contact with her after moving home. I continued with MY PLAN though throughout this time.

He moved back out in May. At that time, I finally got a legal separation. The legal separation had not been necessary because my FWH had left me assess to the checking account. I would take out the money I needed each month. However, I eventually realized I needed to protect myself legally from him.

With urging from the folks here, I reluctantly went to PLAN B. FWH continued to cake-eat, didn't get the condo furniture back, finally left the condo and moved in with the OW. What a financial waste with him buying that condo which sits empty now by the way.

The turning point was when I sold my house. It sold in a day and I found a new house. FWH knew that I was moving on. He called me that very day, saying "What about us?" He did detective work and found the house that I was purchasing, felt guilty that I was moving down and agreed to make financial arrangements for me to move into a better house that I moved out of, a house that we could live in together, a house that he also liked. This was the TRANSITION STAGE OUT OF PLAN B. He needed the roadmap of how to come home. Mortarman guided me through this! I was in a battle for my marriage.

FWH came home in September after doing a NC letter and a session with Steve Harley. However, he did regain contact with OW about one month later. This was picked up by PEPPERBAND who helped me through this stage. I should have known because WH started picking fights again. He was trying to veer me off of my PLAN A so that I would lovebust. As Steve Harley indicated, I did not fail like he wanted me to!!!

His plan was to leave again on October 15th but he couldn't do it. I said "I love you" to him on his way to work that morning and he said "I love you" back to me. He said that he knew then what his choice had to be. He called the OW on the phone in my presence and told her "I LOVE MY WIFE". What we were doing is wrong. You need to go on with your life. This is the end. CLICK.

Since that time, he has followed all the rules of RECOVERY. He gave me access to even his secret bank accounts. He calls me hourly. He buys me presents. He answers any question that I have about the A even though it evidently pains him. He is tearful each time. We are on the same cell phone account. We spend all of our free time together. Even again this morning he said, "I'm sorry for all this".

WHAT I'VE LEARNED: this may be a repeat of what I have said before:

FOLLOW THE MB PRINCIPLES AS CLOSELY AS POSSIBLE. I am a believer in these principles. My H and I follow them to this day. My H quotes Steve Harley although he only had one session with him. It was necessary for me to do the whole process, including PLAN A, PLAN B and RECOVERY. It may be necessary to do modifications according to your own situation. This was allowed in my counseling with Steve Harley although I know that I had the advantage of his coaching.

TRY TO REALLY BUY AND UNDERSTAND THE ADDICTIVE ASPECTS OF AN AFFAIR. This has been a key in my situation. This was always stressed over and over again to me by Steve Harley. My H was not aware that I had this knowledge but has confirmed this over and over again to me. He even told me yesterday that it was not HER. It could have been any woman that gave him that FEELING OF EUPHORIA. However, he loves ME , the person that I am. He really didn't know HER. They were playing a fantasy game. When he had to deal with her in reality, when he moved in with her, he found out that she was "just like any other woman". Yesterday he called her "basic". He said that they pretended with each other. I still catch him telling me stuff about himself and I will say "I already know that".

IDENTIFY WHAT YOU NEED TO DO IN YOUR PLAN AND BY ALL MEANS STICK TO YOUR PLAN. This is in reference to the ENs that you did not meet that created the climate for the A. Plain and simple, I neglected my H. He needed admiration, attention, physical affection, domestic tranquiltiy and sexual fulfillment. I failed him on all of these. I understand now how easily he was tempted by another woman. I am tops in all of these areas now. It was my job as a wife and I did not fulfill it. This is no excuse for him solving his problem by turning to someone else . However, it is important for me to acknowledge and to work on my part. In fact, that's all we can control. This is an important MB principle that must be understood and followed. I remember Steve Harley telling me from the very beginning that your WH can fall in love with you again if : there was love for you in the PAST , if you are acting loving to him in the PRESENT (MY PLAN) and if he believes that he can love you in the FUTURE. The last step took time. He did not believe that MY PLAN would last. It did. Now we love in the present and are planning our future.

Well, enough said for now.

I sometimes think that I need to stop coming to the site because I don't know if I can be helpful. Also, it brings back bad memories for me. However, I want to help others as I have been helped here.

I hope this helps somebody.

[ January 06, 2004, 08:21 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

--------------------

MImi:

I am happy to see that your marriage has recovered. I have a qquestion for you. You have been now in 2 recoveries, if your FWH has yet another affair would you till try and re-recover. YOu see like a stauch MB proponent, and I am interested how you woul handle it.

Our M is also better than pre-A. I also no longer take it for granted.

I like to think that I would never go through this again...I hope I never have to cross that bridge again. I went though all the stuff that Bob Pure wrote about BS's experiences and have come out the other side a better, stronger, person for it. We can do lots of growth through the pain of adversity that the A's create.

That is a powerful story, mimi...Also, thanks Trix for also letting me know there is hope for a better M than before.

Last night was probably the worst LB of our married life. I got home and WW was on the phone / computer, but not to OM. When she got off she told me that she had signed up for a new cell phone plan (hers expires in 10 days) and that, for only $4.95 a month, she now has unlimited calling to Canada (where OM lives). I really responded in anger and told her that I couldn't believe she would openly tell me that she, a married woman, was telling me that she was setting up her cell phone account so she could call another man all she wanted to. I told her that I was going to call everyone in our family and tell them to ask her why we were paying $4.95 a month to be able to call Canada.

She picked up a glass of tea and threw it in my face, I picked up a glass of tea and poured it over her head (we're both adults, can you believe it?). This was the closest we've ever come to getting violent with each other.

It was not a pleasant evening, no need repeating everything that happened. I told her this morning I was sorry that I got angry with her, but that my concerns remain the same.

She told me (again) that she can't understand why I can't accept him into my life. I'm such a jealous husband.

SIGH.....

(((((Georgia Guy)))))

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She told me (again) that she can't understand why I can't accept him into my life. I'm such a jealous husband.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because it has everything to do with personal Boundaries and personal Standards.

I don't think your wife has a clue about either one of them, or if she does, she has "chosen poorly."

God bless, and maintain your stance for the sanctity of marriage.

Georgia:

I am a person who really understands what you are going through. I've lived it all. Without going into detail, my FWH and I had our share of physical confrontations. It just goes to show you how dangerous and traumatic all of this is. This is no simple game that you and your WW are playing. What she is doing is DESTRUCTIVE!!!

I was afraid of this for you. How much can a person take without it building up like this, with her throwing him up in your face?

Sounds like its time for that discussion with her that we talked about yesterday. She's getting desperate to maintain her drug supply. Unfortunately, to be honest, they are probably cooking up so more schemes that you do not know about. I wouldn't be surprised if she is not planning on meeting up with him somewhere. Addicts become desperate!!

Also sharing with friends and family is probably not a bad idea. We are wanting bring her out of her fantasy world and bring this out into the open.

She wants to provoke you into anger at this point. Anything to justify her A. THE PLAN: Continue with your PLAN A. Work on your discussion as we indicated yesterday. Do not back down on your position that it is not acceptable for her to have that cell phone in your house!!!!! Ask her about her PLAN to end the A. Let her know that you will NEVER EVER be accepting of her R with the OM. The reason is because you LOVE HER, she is YOUR WIFE and LIFE PARTNER--my wording but you get it, right?

mimi - Amen to that!

<small>[ November 03, 2004, 07:47 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

It helps more than you will ever know to realize there is somneone out there who has gone through this and come out the other side with a "better" M.

She says that I am trying to "destroy her" by telling the rest of the family about this. She says that this is not "Christian love" to do such a thing, and..."you don't see me calling you sons to tell them about their Dad's sins, do you?".

I know so well that my anger is detrimental to the whole situation. It's so hard at times not to get angry. This morning we talked and I (again) apologized for my anger, telling her that my response was wrong. But...(Forever Hers) I made it clear that my stance on about the "acceptability" of her relationship has not changed. I told her that her relationship with him is destroying our marriage and it can't continue.

She replied that it is my actions that are destroying our marriage. She also said something that I find interesting (interpretation please):

She said that her relationship with OM is winding down and that she is limiting how much she talks with him. She says that if I will just be patient, and not try to control her, that this thing will run its course and be over with.

What does that mean?