Try to develop a strategy to deal with your anger.

I would go on long drives. That was safe for me but got my FWH thinking. He seemed concerned when I returned.

How about going to work out? Going for a walk or jog in your neighborhood.

StillHere and I are on the same viewpoint about the computer. You need access to it to get onto this site and for any other reason that a person in this day and time with our age and experience needs access to a computer at home.

That is so unfair.

I tried talking to my pastor. Be careful about this. It didn't work for me. He ended up having his own agenda which led to me losing faith in my church family. That was a major loss that I didn't need at that time.

Be careful! TRUST IN GOD!! Listen to the SPIRIT. HE will guide you.

SHMI - If I say that I need to use the computer, she will go and “unlock” the screen saver with a whole lots of keystrokes involved. I know that she is IM’ing OM to tell him that she is logging off. I just avoid this issue. I may do a network hookup for my laptop so I can have my own access and not have to continue fighting that battle.

As far as the pastor thing....I have not done that and I think this would end up like Mimi. I don’t think our pastor would be able to prudently handle this, and I think it would make matters worse. I am glad my WW still feels welcome at church, and I don’t want to ruin that. (I know that runs counter to MB principals, sorry).

WW denies this is an EA, it’s a “friendship” only. However, she openly says that I were to do the same thing, she would have left me a long time ago.

Mimi – I asked for immediate prayer because I was on the phone with WW at that moment (she called). She’s telling me that I don’t love her , telling me that she can’t keep living life this way, etc. Plus, if I’m going to continue this behavior, she’s not sure she wants to be married to me. I remained calm, tried to not argue or even reason, but just tell her that I.love her and I know this is hard for her. She told me she is NOT looking forward to our date tonight or our day out tomorrow. I have “ruined” that by my actions last night.

I am finding it easier to let this go in one ear and our the other....(thanks, Mimi – I credit you.).

She is trying to provoke you in order to rationalize HER BEHAVIOR last night.

She's getting deeper and deeper into the FOG. Again, "been there, done that". She might not want to go out with you tomorrow. There's no telling what the OM is telling her, what they are cooking up.

Continue with YOUR PLAN. Do not let her veer you off of that course. That is what she is trying to do. She wants to turn YOU INTO THE BAD GUY. My FWH used that strategy. Remember in the long run, he couldn't forget MY PLAN A in his dark nights without me.

If she has to leave, let her do it on her own, figure out how to do it on her own. Let her dig her own grave. She wants to make you throw her out or make you seem so horrible that she feels justified in leaving. STAY AS CALM, COOL AND COLLECTED as possible. I think that really blew my FWH's mind. He became convinced that I really had changed. I haven't changed back.

<small>[ November 05, 2004, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Orchid had some great fogspeak posts last year. When you hear the foggy person start to spew out pea soup ou babble back...for instance...

"I don't know if I love you anymore"
You say "I'm not sure either"

"I don't know if I want our M anymore"
You say "I know I don't want our M the way it is now either."


"You just don't understand"
You say "You are right, I don't understand"


Basically you agree with most of what they are saying...you do not want the M the way it is...you want it better. Don't try to educate them on M or MB principles, they won't listen. They are trying their darndest to make the M out to be worse than it is so they won't feel so guilty.

Another part of Plan A is you begin to look at your role in how the M got to the point where an A seemed like a good option to your W (not that it is your fault, but you can change your behavior to make the M better).

Do not swerve off the path of calling a spade a spade, when you refer to her "friendship" call him the OM, and call it an A. She will try to argue..."You don't understand", don't argue...she can't argue with your opinion, just say "I see what I see and if I had a woman I called and spent time and attention with, you would call her the OW and it would be an A." From then on you only have to say "I see what I see".

Are there any other allies you can call upon to help burst the A fantasy bubble? Good friends? Any other relatives>

I agree with mimi, Plan B may have to happen, but not yet...

Next time she says she can not live this way, start a conversation about her moving out, very matter of factly. "What about you moving closer to OM?" Not "we", just "you". A stark reality jolt of proximity to see the OM for the worm he is, is VERY helpful in helping the A die naturally.

When my FWH moved out and renewed contact with the OW, he said it wasn't the same, she wasn't the same. He saw her for who she was...and she paled in comparison to me...

Right now she is able to continue her A because she is getting SOME needs met by OM and the rest of her needs are met by YOU. If she has to have ALL her needs met by OM, he will be lacking. Plan A? Find out waht needs the OM is meeting, and begin to fulfill THOSE needs in spades. My guess? Conversation....call her out of hte blue during the day. She seems like a person who has so many words per day she has to use up, and if she uses them up on you...then there is no more room for OM...

I hope you feel my prayers...

GREAT IDEA ABOUT CONVERSATION WITH WW!!!

Listen to STILLHERE'S Advice !!!

I personally had a hard time with Orchid's approach in response to the FOG BABBLE and that's exactly what it is. But if it works for you, try it. It seemed sarcastic to me. I'm not sure if it's pure MB's and you know how I am about TRYING to stick with the MB APPROACH as much as possible.

You are right mimi, the fogbabble seems so sarcastic. That was one of my MAJOR LB's too, sarcasm.

I had to learn to be very humble, which was sometimes quite infuriating for my FWH when he was trying to be SOoooo angry with me (to start a fight). I had to be like a willow in the wind and just go with.

A friend taught me some philosophy behind Tai Chi, the slow movement healthful martial art. He said the best way to fight an opponent coming at you was to hold them, move out of the way, and allow them to keep moving in the same direction...don't try to stop their momentum. That's what I think of as fogbabble.

Mimi, you have so much wisdom into this WS!

Thanks to both of you for your input.

I am trying to do the "babble speak" back, and it does work surprisingly well. I keep wondering if she's going to say "What do you mean?". If she does, I think I might be lost, but so far, that's not happened.

I think the whole thing is at a crisis point right now. If I can keep my cool (James Dean?) and not LB, we may be at a cross roads. I've just got to bite my tongue and not say anything I regret, or respond in anger.

I may not post again before Monday.

I apparently have 2 (?) folks praying for me. I'm supposed to teach an adult class on Sunday (as a sub). The lesson is "Why should we praise God?". The other night during the Georiga Tea Party, WW said "You are the man who is going to teach others the Bible?". I thought about backing out of it, but I decided that I really do believe what I'm going to teach, even in those LB moments. Please remember me Sunday AM, WW will be sitting there listening.

Thanks for the encouragement....means more than you'll ever know. If we know each other in Heaven, I'll get to thank you in person some day.

LAST MINUTE UPDATE.....WW just called sounding chipper as ever. Doesn't sound like a woman who is ready to leave me. G.G. has whiplash !!

Good Morning, Mimi, StillHere, and any others....

Friday night date with WW went really well. We did the Ghost Walk thing downtown, then dessert at a little cafe. We had a great time and she has talked a lot about it to others since then. I think it was an excellent Plan A date. She stayed in bed all night Friday night, no getting out of the bed to talk to OM.

Saturday we again had a good day together, breakfast out at a local grill. Dinner with our S + DIL Saturday night. However, WW felt really bad all day long, she’s having a lot of joint pain. I don’t think she enjoyed her day because of her pain. On the way home Saturday night we were in 2 cars for about the last 30 minutes and I’m pretty sure WW called OM on her cell phone. However, a full nights sleep Saturday and Sunday nights, no getting out of bed.

I’m not sure what’s going on...but the message seems to have gotten through that I will no longer tolerate her openly calling OM in my presence, or talking about him. If she is talking to him, it is certainly greatly diminished from what it was. I can tell she is upset, and I know it’s got something to do with OM. I don’t know if the EA is dying, or she’s just unhappy because she’s so limited as to when she can talk to him. Yesterday afternoon she was laying on the couch napping and I think she was crying.

Also, something I didn’t mention about her physical problems. The numbness / joint pain she is experiencing varies in intensity with stress. If she is under stress, she hurts really bad. This weekend her toes / fingers have been hurting her intensely. She is taking multiple doses of Ibuprofen (800 mg) but has been unable to get any relief. I know that her stress is related to the current state of this situation.

On the computer issue, I wanted to use it for a few minutes Sunday afternoon so I just rebooted it. I didn’t make a big deal out of it. After the fact, I told her that I had rebooted the computer because I needed to use it, and then I shut it down. I noticed later that she had it back up along with the password-protected screensaver.

On a bit of an ironic (and humorous) note. I got an e-mail at work on Friday from Yahoo saying that my account password had been changed. I remember that W discovered this trick along time ago when she was wanting to see what our boys were up to. She would go to Yahoo and do the “forgotten” password thing and reset the password. Anyway, I haven’t used Yahoo in years and forget about even having that account. I casually asked her over breakfast Saturday morning if she had broken into my Yahoo account and she said yes she had (seemed a bit surprised that I had my work e-mail address listed as my secondary address so that I was notified). She said that she was just checking to see what accounts I have that are still active so she could update her address book. However, I think she was a bit embarrassed that she had been caught. Funny she’s carrying on with OM and checking up on me! For the record, none of my account passwords have ever been hidden from her, she just forgot what it was.

However, she seems to be responding in a more positive manner to me. This morning, when I got out of bed, she reached up and pulled me back down, kissed me, and told me that she loved me. Incredibly, no LB’ing at all this weekend, just good, pure Plan A to the MAX !!

GEORGIA:

This sounds GREAT!!! Your PLAN A is working properly, as expected. You are really doing a SUPER JOB with this. I know how hard it is.

Just make sure not to let her veer you off course. Unfortunately, as you well know, you are still in the midst of battle in this WAR since she has not agreed to NO CONTACT with him yet. That is the ultimate goal! She may have gone undercover which, in a way, is good since she is accepting that you will not tolerate her continuation of the A. However, do not put it past them to be cooking up some kind of scheme. Who knows what she may be crying about?? Don't necessarily count on it as being the ending of the A.

My favorite part is her telling you that she loves you!!!

Really step up the PLAN A now. Call her unexpectedly, for example, during the day just to CHAT.

HANG ON IN THERE!!!!

<small>[ November 08, 2004, 09:34 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Mimi:

When things go well for a few days, such as this weekend, it is tempting to start “letting my guard down”, if that makes sense to you. I guess what it really means is that I’m tempted to be the old me that contributed to the A in the first place. I have to remind myself that I have to change, that is something you drilled into me pretty clearly. (BTW – I again read through our chain of posts (saved on disk) over the weekend. It is a big help refreshing my memory on what has been said and the direction that has been given. I have to remind myself that only 6 days ago we were throwing tea on each other we were both so angry. Maybe there is one battle in a long war that has been won this weekend.

When we were with S + DIL Saturday night, I was thinking to myself how comfortable I still feel in the role of “Dad”. (Superdad in your vernacular). It makes me realize how guilty I am of allowing the focus of our marriage to shift from husband (“Casanova”?) to Dad. It will take hard work to refocus, because I still feel more comfortable and capable in the Dad role.

I know that the hard times are far from over and that there will additional moments when my natural reaction will be anger. I appreciated your suggestions of a long drive or walk / jog to diffuse those tendencies. In the past, I’ve used the long drive approach (in my W’s car with the top down, I might add!).

It hurts me a lot to see the pain W is in, both physical and emotional. In the past she has told me that the physical pain would go away if she could be with OM. I would be foolish to think those thoughts have left her mind. I think the only thing that has truly changed is that she is now convinced that I will no longer capitulate to her behavior. One of the things she said to me last week, during the heat of battle, was “Had you rather be right or married?” I find such intimidation tactics to be counter-productive. I didn’t answer her, but I think the truth is I’d rather be right. At least I would still have my self-respect if I have to move on with my life. Who could live with themselves knowing they had purposefully done the wrong thing?

Anyway, thanks for keeping me on the straight and narrow (on Plan A). That neck kiss last week, and the ILY this morning can both be attributed to the success enjoyed so far.

Georgia

Remember PLAN A FOR LIFETIME!!!

If it's any consolation for you, my FWH left me a VoiceMail this morning stating: "Thanks for bringing NORMALITY back into my life again. Thanks for being such a wonderful WIFE AND MOTHER. THANKS FOR ALL THAT YOU DO FOR ME AND OUR FAMILY"

Don't you think he's acknowledging his foggy thinking during the A and validating that I can be successful WIFE AND MOTHER? I think this is what you are striving for, Georgia, meeting ALL of her needs, her needs to hold onto the youthful, romantic side which she has lost in the midst of her bodily ailments PLUS the legitimacy and family ties that she has with you. Isn't that family stuff one of the needs that Harley speaks about? It's usually important for women.

I'm saying that you need to be SUPERDAD and CASANOVA/JAMES DEAN combined in YOUR PLAN A.

<small>[ November 08, 2004, 11:38 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

I know the voicemail made your day...much like mine got off to such a good start this morning with the unexpected ILY.

Yes, WW needs me to continue to be SuperDad, but her focus is on the EN's that haven't been met. That is where I'm trying to focus. What I was saying (probably not very clearly) was that I am at home with the Superdad role, but I'm having to relearn the J.D. role. Obviously, that is where her EN's are exposed.

Perhaps not to take this too lighly...I doubt J.D. would have been much of a "conversationalist". I think that is the area where I will continue to struggle the most. I converse with her, I think, on a fairly deep and open level, but I can tell it doesn't resonate with her the way OM's conversation does. I'm not sure I'm making good in-roads there, maybe just covering up and hiding my failure. I've got to learn much, much more in this area.

I've already planned a double date for next Saturday night with the couple we hang out with sometimes. We're going to play Lazer Tag. WW told me once that looked like fun....we've never tried it. Me and OH have talked about it and we're not telling the W's our plans, just going to surprise them. (Whenever I say we're out with our friends, it is most likely this one couple.)

Yesterday afternoon we went out looking at new homes with #1 S + DIL who plan to move back here in the Spring when DIL finishes college. WW really enjoyed that and said that looking at new houses is one of the things she enjoys most. I may incorporte that into our Plan A. However, we did that 2 years ago and ended up buying a BIG house just as our kids were leaving home. We'd been in our previous house 23 years.

WW was so excited about the house at the time. We would go over there at night and sit on the deck before we owned it. We'd stare in and dream of living there. However, now she says she "never wanted to leave her home and I was just trying to buy her love".. ARGH....

Anyway, thanks for the encouragement. I know you must find it immensely rewarding to be getting the confirmation from your FWH that you did the right thing and now your the "right" woman.

I don't want my W to feel that she has been forced to "settle" for me (her words)through this whole thing, but rather feel that I am, indeed... "SUPERDAD and CASANOVA/JAMES DEAN", and that she is fortunate to have me.

The only tidbit that I mignt add at this point is MAYBE she just wants you to LISTEN more than converse with her.

I heard the LAZER TAG is powerful! Folks that play it are serious about it. It allows you to unleash a lot of AGGRESSSION. Probably preferable to the TEA PARTY! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Here we go again with similar issues. My FWH and I recently bought a new house. The turning point for us during this was when I sold the house we had lived in and was getting a house of my own. He wanted us to buy a house that we BOTH liked although he had not yet left the OW.

Interesting! This MLC stuff! I will think further on this.

If we ever get enough distance behind us, I'd like to think we can laugh at this Tea Party thing.

When I read your story last week, I saw the house thing. That must have been really hard to sell your own home, obviously an attention getter for your H. Our old neighborhood was in pretty severe decline and both boys "W's to be" lived across town. WW and I both still agree that the move was the right thing to do at the right time, she just sometimes hits me with this thing about how she didn't really want to move.

Okay, a different subject. When I started the BIG M thread last week, you said you could answer my BIG M questions. I have some (these may be hard for you....sorry if that is the case).

I have noticed that WW has a marked decrease in mental capacity and memory. Sometimes I think a good deal of our problems may be the result of the fact she doesn't remember many things we have said and/or done with one another. She has always been very smart (Honor Socieity, Beta Club, etc.), but lately it's almost like she things on a juvenile level. She is no longer capabable of carrying on a lengthy, intelligent conversation.

Also, her mental acuity has really decreased. Just one example: When she's driving at night, I have to remind her to dim her lights almost any time she's meeting a car. This is totally new. Also, she can be relatively close to our home and gets confused about how to get to where she is going.

Can you shed any insight on this? Is this symptomatic of the BIG M?

I'm worried about your wife. I really believe she needs to tell her dr. about this. She may need to see a neurologist. With the other symptoms you describe, something may be going on with her brain.

Really, I believe you have reason to be worried.

The memory problems associated with the BIG M are minor.

I would rule out more serious medical issues. I'm giving you permission now to get involved with what's going on with her body even if you need to call her doctor yourself.

Mimi - I'm going to have to think on that one a bit. Now maybe you're beginning to understand why I started that other thread last week.

I don't want to lose the Plan A focus...(you'll not let me do that), but I am worried about my W also. I sincerely believe that at least some of her WW actions may have a physical component. I think she realizes that she's growing more dependent on me taking care of her. She is seeing a R/A specialist, but her next appt isn't until February. She said last night that her symptons (numbness, pain) seem to be getting more aggressive. I attributed that (maybe wrongly)to the stress in our relationship.

One example of how I think this is impacting our relationship. I have seen her holding a grudge that I finished college (after our M) whereas she didn't. I tried for many years to get her to go back , even after the kids came along. I told her that I would keep the kids and we could afford for her to go, but she never would. Now, she tells me she doesn't remember that and I never gave her the opportunity to finish her education. Then there's the house thing....her memory is like I dragged her out of our home, but I remember how excited she was (just 2 years ago) to be getting this house.

Her last OB/GYN report (recent) indicated the FSH (is that the measure of estrogen?) was at 28, she was told that 20 is the very bottom of the scale. I'll admit that I don't know what "normal" is...but her dr. did recommend HRT.

I'll admit I am wholly inadequate and unprepared to deal with this. I would appreciate your insight.

Without going into detail about me, I have lots of expertise about this. I really think she needs to see a physician as soon as possible in order to rule out really serious problems. To convince you of the need for this, check out her symptoms on WEB MD. Do you have friends that are medical professionals such as a RN? Ask for their consultation.

Some of the selective memory problems can be attributed more to her being involved in having an A than the BIG M. The BIG M or even aging can cause short-term memory problems.

What I am concerned about is her getting lost combined with the numbing in her extremities. I think waiting until February is way too long.

Do you want to me to specifically tell you the diagnoses that I am concerned about or will that alarm you? I think it would be simpler to call her regular family doctor and run the symptoms by him/her. I don't think you should divulge about the A. I'm just talking about the physical symptoms.

By all means continue with YOUR PLAN A. However, her physical welfare does need to take high priority.

<small>[ November 08, 2004, 02:51 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Let’s take a deep breath and back up a moment. As you may remember, I cannot “make” her do anything. I’ve suggested as kindly as I know how that she see her physician because of some of these clear BIG M issues, such as severe night sweats, depression, etc.- Only to be rebuffed loudly that she wishes I’d quit recommending such things because the real problem is....and then a tirade about our relationship, etc.

So, it is not easy to convince someone that they MJST see a physician. If it turns out that your “expertise” helps us (me) in this area also, I will be convinced God has sent you.

My friends that I have that are medical professionals are also her friends, thereby complicating matters. However, there is a PA in her OB/GYN’s office that I have reason to believe would talk with me. We will hold that thought for later. Obviously, HIPAA is an issue.

Yes, I do want you to tell me specifically the diagnoses that you are concerned about

To clear up any misunderstanding, she hasn’t gotten “lost”, but she gets very confused.

I hope you’re not sorry you made that agreement (to stick with me through this). I appreciate your help, I know you could disappear at any time and wash your hands of this, but I can’t. I’m here for “better or worse”. I will see what I can find on WEB MD, but go ahead with your thoughts first, please.

GEORGIA

I am now taking a deep breath. Nothing will happen over night. That's for sure.

However, I think you are dealing with some very heavy, complicated issues. You are so right that physical and emotional issues are interacting here, very much so.

Because of the privacy issues, the PA will not share information specifically with you about your wife. However, you can TELL HER anything that you want and listen to how she responds, whether with major concern or not. The PA can respond generically to your questions.

I want to think about this and read back over your posts before I respond regarding diagnoses. I want to make sure that I am not overreacting. I probably won't post until later on tonight.

Meanwhile, I am taking a deep breath and you CONTINUE WITH PLAN A.

Thanks, Mimi -

I know you don't want to say too much about yourself, but may I at least ask if your expertise is based on "qualifications" or "experience"?

I'll look forward to what you have to say.

Thanks again so much....

<small>[ November 08, 2004, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: Georgia Guy ]</small>