Georgia:

I do have a problem of wanting to run in and put out fires. Thanks for reminding me to take a breath.

However, I am concerned about you and your WW. I do have professional qualifications and experience about many of these matters. I like to reserve MB for my personal perspectives on things and to get my own help. However, it is hard to separate things out. Life is so complicated. Let's just say I have lots of professional and personal experience and qualifications.

Like I said before, this seems very complicated. Sounds like a combination of an addictive affair, midlife crisis, the BIG M and a maybe a serious medical condition. Just one of these things would be major.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have noticed that WW has a marked decrease in mental capacity and memory. Sometimes I think a good deal of our problems may be the result of the fact she doesn't remember many things we have said and/or done with one another. She has always been very smart (Honor Socieity, Beta Club, etc.), but lately it's almost like she things on a juvenile level. She is no longer capabable of carrying on a lengthy, intelligent conversation.

Also, her mental acuity has really decreased. Just one example: When she's driving at night, I have to remind her to dim her lights almost any time she's meeting a car. This is totally new. Also, she can be relatively close to our home and gets confused about how to get to where she is going.

Can you shed any insight on this? Is this symptomatic of the BIG M?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This observation made by you was most concerning. This indicates some sort of disease in the nervous system which is why I stated a need to see a neurologist. These are the symptoms that need mentioning to her physician. Along with the numbness, she is having mental status changes in her thinking/memory.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WW, has had a huge change in her personality in recent years.

She is deeply in menopause, lots of trouble with night sweats, hot flashes, etc. I know from her last OB/GYN visit that her estrogen is extremely low, and her dr. recommended she go on HRT. However, she refuses HRT or any other drugs </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here I think you are referring to the BIG M. In my personal experience, in this regard, I did experience depression and personality change as well as the night sweats, etc. HRT has proved to be essential to remedy the physical symptoms. However, the short-term memory problems have continued. By that I mean, I forget where I placed my reading glasses. I have to always carry a grocery list if I want to get even the essentials. These are common signs of the BIG M and AGING even for men.

On the other hand LONG -TERM MEMORY PROBLEMS and REWRITING HISTORY are common in FOGGY THINKING. In other words, WSes do this. My FWH does this a lot of the time and it really irks me. It's part of the stories he created in his mind to justify his A. His delusional stories all summed up to him trying to convince himself that I never really loved him, he didn't love me, the OW was his true love, etc.

So you see this is complicated.

Have to go now. Will check back with you tomorrow.

Mimi –
The 1st counselor that I saw (5X) told me on our last visit that if I ever wrote a book about my life, he’d like to read it. Didn’t give me much confidence in his ability to help us, but it did show me that our situation is a bit more complex than that faced by the average couple having marital issues. BTW – Some of his final comments were that my happiness might be better assured elsewhere. I found that despicable for someone dedicated to saving marriage.

Frankly, I’m sitting here befuddled, not knowing what to say. Where do I go now? (Rhetorical question, I suppose). In much the same way that talking to a fog-bound WS is useless, trying to get my W to see the possible seriousness of the situation is just as improbable.

“I do have a problem of wanting to run in and put out fires. Thanks for reminding me to take a breath.” Actually, you may recall you did the same for me about a week ago re: Plan A. I’ve learned my lesson well. W tells me that I have a problem with always wanting to take charge, perhaps you are the same way.

Mimi...I am at a loss for words and/or thoughts right now. I just don’t know what to do. I may have to go concentrate on what I do for a living and come back to this later this morning. I looked on WEB MD but I didn’t get very far or glean much information.

There are other symptoms that I haven’t mentioned but I don’t feel comfortable doing so on a public forum.

Yesterday it sounded like you had some specific diagnoses in mind. Was that just generic disease of the nervous system, or did you have something more specific in mind? Is MS a disease of the nervous system? Her RA specialist has mentioned this as a possibility. Her RA factor was high (83, I think), but so far the physician has been unable to isolate the exact issue, which I understand may or may not be RA.

“On the other hand LONG -TERM MEMORY PROBLEMS and REWRITING HISTORY are common in FOGGY THINKING. In other words, WSes do this. My FWH does this a lot of the time and it really irks me. It's part of the stories he created in his mind to justify his A. His delusional stories all summed up to him trying to convince himself that I never really loved him, he didn't love me, the OW was his true love, etc.”
That really sums up what WW does. She has a total re-write of history that she hits me with all the time. Couple that with some of the most hurtful remarks that any human could ever make and it is hard to cope sometimes. She told me when she looked down that aisle she knew she was making a mistake, and that for 28 years she has been a good actress, making me think she was happy. She told OM that she “settled” for me because she was afraid no one else would ask her to marry.... I get a lot of the you never loved me, I never loved you babble.

But the subject of the day is medical....

Okay, Dr. Mimi...What do I do now?

<small>[ November 09, 2004, 06:57 AM: Message edited by: Georgia Guy ]</small>

Hi Georgia:

Yes, I struggle with CONTROL ISSUES, for sure. On another day we can have the discussion about the role of CODEPENDENCY in all this.

BINGO!! We are on the same page. You said it yourself. I was concerned about MS. . Since it's already out on the table, we are not talking about anything new here. Your WW knows about it. You don't have to be the first to mention it or introduce it to her. What can you DO regarding the medical issues? I'm going to say. NOTHING but to become educated regarding diseases of the nervous system in the same family of MS and sit back and WATCH and WAIT. I know. As you can tell, this is always hard for me, too. However, knowledge is power and time is really on your side. As symptoms develop, you will know what you are looking at and what to watch for.... Then, in your PLAN A, you can wrap your protective arms around her as a loving husband would IN SICKNESS AND IN HEALTH.

Also by LEARNING, WATCHING AND WAITING, you are BUILDING UP YOUR STAMINA AND RESOURCES to duck her accusations that you have caused all of this. You see, it seems that, unfortunately, she has coped with the assault on her body by becoming involved in the EA. Somehow, for some reason, she did not feel that she could turn to you. This is what you want to take a look at. How come she did not use you as a resource? Maybe she wanted to retreat into a fantasy world because of her inability to cope with the situation.

Tragically, a bad situation has become even badder. Not only does she have to fignt some kind of disease (has to be diagnosed by a physician) but also she has to battle an addiction. It's your job, IF YOU CHOOSE TO AND SHE ALLOWS YOU , to help her with BOTH of these life problems.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She has a total re-write of history that she hits me with all the time. Couple that with some of the most hurtful remarks that any human could ever make and it is hard to cope sometimes. She told me when she looked down that aisle she knew she was making a mistake, and that for 28 years she has been a good actress, making me think she was happy. She told OM that she “settled” for me because she was afraid no one else would ask her to marry.... I get a lot of the you never loved me, I never loved you babble.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is all pure FOG TALK, part of the delusion that she is using to maintain her involvement in the A. Once she is OUT OF THE FOG, after a 3 to 6 month total withdrawal from the OM, this will eventually go away. Some of it continues to linger for my FWH so the brainwashing that goes on in an A is powerful. I often find myself correcting him regarding the past. I'm just reminding you that this way of thinking has mainly to do with her being involved in an A. This is not necessarily due to THE BIG M or NEUROLOGICAL PROBLEMS.

YOUR ASSIGNMENT: PUTTING ALL THE PUZZLE PIECES TOGETHER......

Good Morning, Mimi –

If our ages matched a little more closely (I think you’ve got 1.5 years on me), I’d ask my parents if I had a twin sister that they hadn’t told me about. Okay, just jesting.

Now, to more serious stuff. As you’ve demonstrated that you are qualified to speak to any of a number of issues that we (WW & I) are battling, please allow me to organize my thoughts / questions into one of those 4 areas. If you feel I’ve put something into the wrong subject area, please let me know. Example: If I have a Medical condition question that you think is really due to the BIG M, please tell me that it needs to go into that category.

You’ve challenged me to put the pieces of the puzzle together. (I feel like I’ve got the border done but maybe the dog ate some of the tree tops). I work best when organized and this format will help me if it’s okay with you. Without giving away too much of my expertise, let’s just say my right brain gets used more than my left in my line of work. (However, I’m beginning to appreciate art more as I grow older, maybe there’s hope yet).

“Like I said before, this seems very complicated. Sounds like a combination of an addictive affair, midlife crisis, the BIG M and a maybe a serious medical condition.”

Subject areas:

EA: I can’t help but notice that there has been NO mention of OM at all this week. Plus, she has not gotten out of bed and talked (that I am aware of) since last Thursday night. I know this is a good thing, but it’s a little unnerving. I don’t know what’s going on in her mind about OM. Used to be, she’d rattle continuously about him. Advice please: should I say anything at all about this to her, or just “pretend” OM doesn’t exist? I like for her to be able to be “HONEST AND OPEN” with me.

MLC: Nothing new

BIG M: Nothing new

MEDICAL: I will take your (very good) advice to educate myself on MS. I did not know if it affects mental functions. I want to be careful not to reach a conclusion to which I TRY to find symptoms to match, but I understand the concept of knowing what to be watching for. Question: if this does end up being the legitimate diagnoses, is there any advantage to her getting any type of treatment ASAP? In other words, if I (and Dr. Mimi) have reasonable assurance that this may be the issue, is there time-sensitive treatment options that might necessitate me (being CONTROLLING) urging her to get treatment quickly? Is there a better web-site than WEB MD if dealing specifically with MS?

W called while I was typing this. She is on her way to school and talking on her cell phone. She was complaining about how much it hurts her hand to hold the phone and commented that it is getting where it is painful to do anything with her hands.

Reading back over your last post, I don’t want this conversation to get too clinical. You have suffered more than I (no PA on this end, yet). I do feel for the pain you’ve endured and see the strength you’ve gained from your ordeal. I’d never suggest that God puts any of us through this type of thing as a part of His plan, but I would suggest that we can find the good that can come from even the worst of situations. To that end, I am thankful that you are there to offer the insight that you have gained through your suffering. Perhaps the situation of WW and I will serve us should this thing (medical) get worse. I confide in a local clergyman that is not affiliated with my church. He has commented that if we make it through this ordeal, we have the potential of a stronger M than we had before, much like your words of encouragement to me.

Georgia

GEORGIA:

I've forgotten to remind you of the importance of FOLLOWING YOUR GUT INSTINCT or in other words your INTUITION. That's going to be of value to you as you try to put this puzzle together. That's why you see me hedging. I only have certain information to work with. You can also use your heart and your sense of what's going on in each encounter. I'm not sure how to put this into words.

I like how you are compartmentalizing this, breaking it into separate parts because it is a lot for you to digest. I understand the feeling of being overwhelmed by all that you are dealing with. Breaking off the pieces helps. Here goes:

EA: I continue to recommend that discussion with her regarding what is her plan to establish NO CONTACT. I think, without that, she's gone undercover and become more deceitful. She's acknowledging to herself that she is having an A. Trust YOUR GUT, as indicated above, in telling you how and when she is contacting him and in telling you when and how to have your DISCUSSION. I think you should plan when you are going to have it and plan what you are going to say and then stick by your guns.

MEDICAL: I'm willing to only go out on a limb and definitely say that your WW has a NEUROLOGICAL DISORDER. Read about DISEASES OF THE NERVOUS SYSTEM and how they affect a person's functioning. It sounds like her symptoms may get bad enough that she will have to consult a dr. sooner than February. I definitely wouldn't get controlling with her. She's setting you up to do that. I would make sure to LISTEN. even to the point that you could repeat back the symptoms to her. "You say your hand is hurting so badly you can't hold the steering wheel?" The goal is for her to make the decision on her own to seek medical attention. "Wow that sounds really awful for you, I wonder if seeing your dr. would help?" Then, LISTEN SOME MORE.

Please go back to just referring to me as just MIMI. We are on the same level here, struggling to make it through all of this.....

Also, don't forget to PRAY. I've learned to sit back and put a lot of stuff in HIS HANDS.

HAVE FAITH THAT HE IS WORKING IT OUT FOR YOU!!!!

<small>[ November 09, 2004, 11:52 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Mimi -

Enough to digest for the day. During lunch, I started reading on an MS web-site. I'm seeing some troubling stuff, some stuff that I recognize (the symptoms that I've not mentioned). More on that later.

This is definitely making me feel overwhelmed.

It is such a paradox, but whenever I've been faced with really big issues before, the person I've confided in is now the person I CANNOT confide in. Like you say, it is hard for me to put this into words.

Okay, you're just plain MIMI from now on. It is hard to discern one's demeanor in writing, sometimes my sense of humor may not come across as I intend. Sorry about that.

Georgia:

Hang on in there!

I was 99.9% sure that you were kidding about the Dr. thing. I just wanted to make sure!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Mimi-

I got home and found WW reading the book for her new cell phone. We're going to go out and get something to eat tonight, and she's gone to get cleaned up.

It is obvious she is in a lot of pain. She said that if she continues to hurt this way, she'll not be able to keep working. She avoided going up and down stairs today because her feet and toes are hurting her so badly.

I'll keep reading more, thanks for you comments.

On the EA front, I'm having a hard time convincing myself to be confrontational right now with this "NC discussion" while she is feeling so poorly.

Georgia

Good Morning, Mimi –

EA: I decided to check WW’s cell phone log last night and found that OM had called her at 10:30 AM yesterday. This was about 20 minutes before she called me while on her way to school.

Last night when she got into bed, I saw all the tattle-tell signs that she didn’t intent to stay there for long. (Laying on top of the covers, house shoes still on, etc.). I asked if she wasn’t tired and she responded coldly and with obvious disdain. After the cell phone deal, and then this, I could begin to feel the anger building up. However, I bit my tongue and didn’t say anything. I went to sleep and woke up at 2:45 to the sound of her coming back into the bedroom. When she got in bed I kissed her and told her it was nice to have her in bed. All the while, I’m thinking that mid-night LB’ing would be a major set back so I said nothing. This morning, she told me that she was hurting so badly so got up and took Ibuprofen in the middle of the night. Maybe that was all the 2:45 thing was all about, I don’t know.

I think it’s time that I take your advice and begin working on the NC speech. I’ll need your help when I get my thoughts organized on that subject. You said in one of your posts “She's acknowledging to herself that she is having an A.” Why do you say that? I don’t understand your thought process here.

Last night I re-read the “conversation” section of HNHN. I think that this the area that is the root of my wife’s unmet EN’s, and I’m certain that I’ve not conquered that area. How does your H relate to you in this area that is he able to meet your needs here? I guess what I’m awkwardly asking is.....how do I do this differently than what I am doing now. I think I do LISTEN with interest and without interrupting. I’ve got to read more here, advice from anyone is appreciated.

MLC: (Not sure where this line belongs). I’m going to ask #1 son + DIL if they were like to come over Friday night and spend the night with us. DIL’s father died in June and they’ve been staying with her mom whenever they come to town since then. They are meeting with a realtor Friday to discuss committing to starting a new house. I think they should be all pumped up Friday night and would be good for WW to be around a little enthusiasm. (HUMOR NOTE: #1 son is working on genealogy since he recently discovered there was a supreme court justice in the early 19th century with our name. He has discovered about 5 generations back the names “James xxxx” and “xxxx Dean”. I asked if he thought we might be related to James Dean, he suggested it is more likely to be Howard Dean.)

BIG M: Hot flashes to the max.

MEDICAL: This thing seems to be taking on a life of it’s own VERY QUICKLY. I guess you saw my last post about her complaining of severe foot pain. While eating dinner last night, she suddenly stopped eating and said that the right side of her face around her lips was numb and tingling. She has never had anything like this before. We were right around the corner from our doctor’s office (still open) and I told her I would take her there. She said no, she needs some Ibuprofen. We stayed a few more minutes and, remembering your words from yesterday (“I definitely wouldn't get controlling with her. She's setting you up to do that.”), I asked if she would like for me to take her to the doctors office or if she had rather go on to the Bible study we were headed to, she angrily replied “I’m not going to the doctor”. I didn’t bring it up again, but she was in pain in bed last night (hence the Ibuprofen). I don’t know if this is related or not. She’s been having some trouble with a crown lately (on the right side), so this may be a whole other issue.

During dinner, she said that she had been having a lot of trouble with her speech yesterday at school. I asked if she meant from thinking of the right words or slurred speech. She said her words were coming out garbled.

I’m reading all the MS stuff that I can. I’ll be really surprised if she doesn’t have MS (or similar). I do not have to use my imagination very much at all to see a number of symptoms that are indicative of MS.

WARNING: Georgia blowing off steam:

When I couple the EA actions with the medical situation, I am having a hard time wondering what is going through her mind. My “Taker” wants to ask if she has considered if OM would be willing to commit the rest of his life to taking care of her if this MS thing blossoms. I also want to ask why I should make that commitment if this is the thanks I get. If she went to live with OM (where she would be happy – her words), would WW and OM stay home and sponge off the OMW’s restaurant income (about minimum wage)? Or would WW and OMW both work so OM could stay home and troll for another woman on the internet? (Okay, again - rhetorical questions. I’m done).

Georgia:

I'm sorry to hear about all this crap that you are going through. It sounds AWFUL!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She's acknowledging to herself that she is having an A.” Why do you say that? I don’t understand your thought process here.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You've answered this question for yourself in your post. She's gone undercover, lying and deceiving you. I know you are not wanting to see this. Reality is: she talked to him at length on the cell phone before calling you. She got up last night to communicate with him--not only to take the real pain meds.

Remember that she is using him for pain relief. He is her primary drug. She is not thinking that she needs anything except him. She does not think she needs a doctor, only him. Get it?

The addictive aspect of this EA is essential for you to buy and to understand.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm having a hard time convincing myself to be confrontational right now with this "NC discussion" while she is feeling so poorly.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sounding like a broken record but it is time for the NC DISCUSSION. The problem here is that you are seeing it as CONFRONTATIONAL. Think of it instead as LOVING. Remember LOVE MUST BE TOUGH. Your WW is emotionally and physically self-destructive at this point. She needs you and the way things are leading, given your "TAKER" in your last post quoted below, your tolerance and patience are wearing thin. In my opinion, the NC DISCUSSION continues to be essential and your best strategy at this point.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My “Taker” wants to ask if she has considered if OM would be willing to commit the rest of his life to taking care of her if this MS thing blossoms. I also want to ask why I should make that commitment if this is the thanks I get. If she went to live with OM (where she would be happy – her words), would WW and OM stay home and sponge off the OMW’s restaurant income (about minimum wage)? Or would WW and OMW both work so OM could stay home and troll for another woman on the internet? (Okay, again - rhetorical questions. I’m done).
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think you want to include any of the above in your discussion. However, if she acts on her present way of thinking, this might have to happen for her. Given the addictive aspect of this, addicts often have to hit bottom before they can recover. That's what had to happen for my FWH. He ended up moving in with the OW in a ghetto neighborhood, hanging out with her thuggish friends, before he came home. Unbelievable to anyone that knows this formally upstanding, church man in our community, but true. Remember how he thanked me for helping to save him from his craziness. I believe now that I had to allow him to actually live under those conditions first in order for him to make his way back home.

CONVERSATION: This is where your WW and my FWH are alike. He has strong need for CONVERSATION. I don't. I have learned that he wants me to ONLY LISTEN to him and to not to try to FIX his problems. He used to say that he was with her because he NEEDED SOMEONE TO TALK TO. I have had to learn to sit back and let him TALK and TALK and TALK to me. He does not even necessarily want me to contribute to the conversation. I used to think that he valued becoming involved in intellectual discussions with me. WRONG! The OW is not too bright, not even a college graduate. I just could not understand my FWH being with her. You see, she did not have much to offer in the conversations but she certainly could LISTEN.

Enough for now. Hang in there!!!

Mimi -

"I'm sounding like a broken record but it is time for the NC DISCUSSION. The problem here is that you are seeing it as CONFRONTATIONAL. Think of it instead as LOVING. Remember LOVE MUST BE TOUGH. Your WW is emotionally and physically self-destructive at this point."

I've spent lunch today reviewing back over our conversation and copying any comments from you about the NC conversation. You're right, I have to do it. I think also, since you noted that you and I are both CONFLICT AVOIDERS, you probably understand why I am having such a hard time doing this. However, you're right, it doesn't have to confrontational. I am adding a line to my Plan A to develop my NC speech. It has to be done in conjunction with the rest of Plan A.

WW called on the way to school. She is so cold and distant, something's really going on in her head. Now I wonder if she just finished talking with OM.

It sounds like your FWH really hit rock bottom. It is so hard to believe that normal, intelligent humans can do these things. I hate to categorize people in such a way (because God created us all), but OM would be what is frequently referred to as a "loser". Obviously, same could be said for your FWH's FOW. From reading your other posts, I know this still causes you much pain. I guess we invariably want to compare ourselves with OM / OW to see where we fall short. (I know that I've spent time on that thought process). However, even though we all may be guilty of some shortcomings, it's not us that causes this wacky behavior, but the conscious choice of our WS.

Okay, I admit...I'm preaching at you now. What I wish I could say with more finesse is .... your FWH made stupid choices (thuggish friends, I really like that), don't beat yourself up over it. He should count his blessings that he has you back.

<small>[ November 10, 2004, 11:57 AM: Message edited by: Georgia Guy ]</small>

Georgia:

Thanks for your help and support regarding the FOW issue. I think it would better if I didn't keep seeing her. I've happened to see her a lot lately, sometimes just driving around in her car. With my belief system, I'm wondering if there is a meaning to this.

I liked what you said about it all being a part of his CRAZINESS. That's what he keeps stressing to me, that it doesn't have to be rational, that it doesn't make sense. I keep trying to make sense of it all. He certainly must have had some CRAZY TIMES over there with her.. Oh Well...

I want to throw in here that I found it helpful to get very structured in planning for MY TOUGH TALK with my FWH. I had to write down what I was going to say since it was not in my nature. Plus, I really didn't FEEL RIGHT about what I was saying. I just knew it had to be said. I really bought in to the viewpoint that I HAD TO DO THIS IF THERE WAS ANY CHANCE AT ALL FOR BREAKING THE ADDICTION. The thought of me being TOUGH in order to STOP ENABLING him was hard for me to buy. However, in the long run, it was a major turning point in my situation. I gained a huge amount of respect from my FWH. He began to value me more. This change has helped me in other areas of life as well.

Mimi –

I feel wholly inadequate to offer you advice. However, I know that HNHN talks about sometimes it is best to relocate to avoid FOW. I know that may not be practical with a family, etc. Also, please be careful about reading too much into various events as being providential. I’m not saying it can’t be true, but I am saying that this can also be part of fogging thinking. I know I hear from WW that she and OM know that it’s part of God’s plan or why would He have brought them together? You’ve got the wisdom to discern the difference, don’t allow yourself to be fooled.

It is obvious that there is no rationale behind WS’s actions, to try to find any would be folly. I read once a long, long time ago that one of the biggest problems an older man (MLC) discovers if he hooks up with a young woman (OM) is that she is embarrassing to take out into public because of her level of maturity. (My apologies to any young ladies reading this). But the truth is...in our late 40’s you and I both think a lot “differently” than we did at half our ages. As a person of character that you obviously are, you and I both know that H could be proud to be seen with you, and feel good about your relationship. Likewise, I hasten to say that he would likely want to “hide” his relationship with her from friends / family whose opinions he valued, if for no other reason than she probably acted “silly” (by comparison).

Wow....I’m preaching again! I know what I’m saying is simplistic to you, having gone through what you have. I wish I could offer better advice, but it’s just so obvious to someone outside looking in (me) that OW has nothing, absolutely nothing, to offer that was even a small amount better than you.

You’ve offered a trove of information on the NC issue. That’s the reason I’ve gone back through and copied all those nuggets into a single Word document that I will refer to when developing mine. I understand the need for structure, detail, planning, and emotionless delivery.

Where we may differ – apparently your FWH left of his own accord. I doubt WW is going to leave (however, I may be surprised). What if she says NO to the NC demand? Where am I left then? Do you think it will come to a point where I expect NC or I leave? What is the stick (or carrot, maybe?) that I have to wave to encourage NC?

Are you going to tell me to take a deep breath again?

<small>[ November 10, 2004, 12:51 PM: Message edited by: Georgia Guy ]</small>

Georgia:

You certainly can be helpful in validating my FWH's description of the mind of a man in MLC.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> read once a long, long time ago that one of the biggest problems an older man (MLC) discovers if he hooks up with a young woman (OM) is that she is embarrassing to take out into public because of her level of maturity. (My apologies to any young ladies reading this). But the truth is...in our late 40’s you and I both think a lot “differently” than we did at half our ages. As a person of character that you obviously are, you and I both know that H could be proud to be seen with you, and feel good about your relationship. Likewise, I hasten to say that he would likely want to “hide” his relationship with her from friends / family whose opinions he valued, if for no other reason than she probably acted “silly” (by comparison).
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is almost exactly what he has stated to me. He began his relationship having fun with her and became addicted. He keeps telling me how happy he is now to be able to go out in the open again and how proud he is of me. Thanks for validating his viewpoint!!! In fact, he has indicated, when he wanted to go out into the open with her, to be more legitimate, she didn't want this. He says she liked the secrecy of their relationship. I haven't been able to understand that.

I agree with you, too, that it's probably just happenstance that I see her and that I shouldn't read too much meaning into it. She and I just happen to ride about in the same area of town given where we work and shop, etc. My FWH continues to go out of his way not to see her by using different routes and not shopping at the stores where he knows she frequents. I haven't wanted to inconvenience myself by trying to avoid her. Maybe I should....

In regards to your NC discussion, I would focus on having the discussion and then planning the next step.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> doubt WW is going to leave (however, I may be surprised). What if she says NO to the NC demand? Where am I left then? Do you think it will come to a point where I expect NC or I leave? What is the stick (or carrot, maybe?) that I have to wave to encourage NC?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you've gone too far with the thinking above. Have the discussion and then take a deep breath! Do you see what I mean? One step at a time.

<small>[ November 10, 2004, 01:55 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Mimi -

It makes me feel good that I am able to offer some insight to you for a change (you are being honest, right?). I was beginning to feel like a moocher.

Okay, my last piece of advice for the day. FWH has made changes in his routine to avoid FOW, you haven't. Other than work...I think you should be honest enough to ask yourself if there is some hidden agenda in "accidentally" seeing her. Why aren't you altering your shopping, etc. to avoid her? Come on Mimi....you and I have covered a lot of ground in a week. You've done better than anyone else I've read on MB, and I've got a lot riding on your continued success. You need to shed this compulsion about FOW. I want to be able to come to you for advice someday on how to avoid continuing to think about FOM.

I'm hereby practicing my new, firm NC approach: MIMI - From now on....Georgia will find any even "unintentional" contact with FOM inapppropriate and unacceptable.

<small>[ November 10, 2004, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: Georgia Guy ]</small>

Georgia:

YOU REALLY ARE HELPING ME!!!

You are so right about my need to stop the OW obsession. That is my last struggle!!!

Sounds like you are on the RIGHT TRACK. Do not veer off course.

You can win this war, one battle at a time!!!

Thanks for the encouragement...I'm heading home.

I'm sure you'll make it through the "last struggle". I know it must be hard. Just remember, she may have gotten his attention for a brief moment in time...but you have won his heart for life. You are the winner, she is the loser.

I called WW and we talked for a moment. She justs sounds so down and so distant. I know she is really hurting badly....

This thing is just tearing my emotions apart. I would have never thought it possible to feel anger and compassion for the same person simultaneously, but I now know that it can be done.

You hang in there too, Mimi...

Good Morning, Mimi –

Lots of EA discussion today:

I went to bed last night thinking about how it had been 6 whole days since hearing about OM (Last Thursday night when WW was on the phone at 4:30 AM). Well, you guessed it, at 3:45 I woke up with no WW in bed. I went to see where she was, this time in a different upstairs room with the door closed on the phone. I opened the door and reminded her that I had asked that she respect my home and not call other men from my home. She replied something like “he is my friend forever”. I again said that I had asked her not to call other men from my home, I found that rude and disrespectful. (I have discovered that the term “disrespectful” to someone of his culture is like the kiss of death, so I use it whenever I want to make a strong point).

I went back to bed and she came in a few minutes later. She wanted so badly to see me LB and try to make me the bad guy. However, for some reason, I wasn’t angry and I was able to have a controlled conversation. Throughout the whole hour or so, I kept remembering little snippets from our posts and that helped me more than you’ll ever know. Whenever she started trying to get me to engage in her babble, I would bring the conversation back to something sane.

My theme was:
I will not accept OM as my friend any more than you would accept another W as your friend
I continue to expect that you do not contact OM from my home.
Our marriage has boundaries to be respected and OM has broken those boundaries
If I accept what WW is doing, then I am wrong and I know she doesn’t want a H who knowingly does the wrong thing.

She continues to tell me that he is her friend for life and that she doesn’t want a marriage where she is controlled. (Flashback – Mimi’s words: BE FIRM AND NONEGOTIABLE ABOUT THESE THINGS.[/ Expect her to try to get you to LB by calling you controlling. I would make these issues non-negotiable.) I remembered clearly your words when she said that. I replied that all marriages have boundaries for both the H and W. Both parties must respect those boundaries for the marriage to work.

She also told me that OM tells her she should be in bed with her H and not on the phone with him. I told her that OM is two-faced and that if he really meant that he wouldn’t be there waiting on her all the time, he would just hang-up the phone. I expected an angry response on that one, but she didn’t say anything at all.

She told me that I needed to think ahead and ask if I was considering life without her, finding someone else, and beginning over again. I told her that I take one day at a time and right now I am focusing on how our M can be better and how I can meet her needs.

She told me that OM makes her happy and feel good. I told her maybe she should start planning how she can live there as she has told me that is where her true happiness lies. She said that I wasn’t listening, she doesn’t want to go there, she just wants to be able to talk to him.

She began down this path of how she has always given up her own life for everyone else and done whatever anyone else wanted without regard for her own happiness. I told her that she was having a pity party and I wasn’t joining in. Then I told her that actually she can be a very selfish person (which she has admitted) and that when she doesn’t get her way, she pouts (which she does). I think this is a part of that history re-write you and I were discussing.

She tried really hard to turn this into an argument, but I just didn’t fall for it. I remembered so many of the things you had said. I think reading all of the “NC snippets” yesterday really helped. I remained emotionless.

She snuggled with me and said “You’ve got cold feet...and a cold heart” (First time I had heard that one). This morning, when I got out of bed, she said “Good morning, sweetheart”.

So, does this count as the NC discussion? It wasn't scripted, but I'm not sure what I would add if I did it again. It is still generic, no line in the sand. I’m still getting the response that I expected, which is “no way”.

Okay, Mimi.....we’re really in the part now where I’m depending on you for wise counsel. Seems to me like I continue to Plan A like crazy. Is there more? Do I follow up on this conversation, or just wait to see what she does? Do I “intrude” again the next time she’s holed up talking to OM in the middle of the night?

I suspect that you and I had similar child rearing philosophies (I've read all the Dobson stuff). Part of that philosophy was to make sure the consequences of disobedience is clearly delineated. I keep having the desire to deal with this in the same way..WW only has a "vague" indication that there are consequences to her actions. I know what you said yesterday, but that is what I am struggling with. I guess I want to add the "or else" line....but maybe that's not the right thing to do here?

On the medical front:

I think the facial issues are somehow dental related. She’s sleeping with a hot pack on her face and taking lots of Ibuprofen. I’ve not mentioned doctor / dentist again. It seems like her other pains may have diminished a bit yesterday.

MLC arena:

Plans for #1 son and DIL to visit this weekend are nixed. They are committed to keep DIL’s niece and nephew all weekend. I talked to S yesterday and he is really, really excited about the house deal. They have talked finances with a mortgage company and expect to commit to a vacant lot on Friday.

#2 son (and DIL) will be staying with us all weekend as they are attending the local Family Life Marriage Conference. We’ll probably not see them much, but it’ll be nice to have them home.

BIG M: WW tells me it was hot flashes that woke her in the middle of the night.

Whew.... there. I really don’t normally “talk” so much, but you’re getting the full blast. There is no one else to whom I am telling these things.

Georgia

<small>[ November 11, 2004, 08:14 AM: Message edited by: Georgia Guy ]</small>