Mimi -

Yea, I'm going to have to trust my gut there, and I think I know what that is..I'll report after I've done it.

Mimi....where I need you the most, keep me grounded. You and I both know...I am willing to chalk this one up to providential. Don't forget your commitment.

WW EN's:
Affection
Honesty & Openness
Conversation

I think the AFFECTION EN is out the window for the time being. I can be sensitive to that, but I also know her. A touch would not go over well right now.

H&O I will be limiting to the 2 Georgia principles, for right now.

Conversation...maybe, but I don't want the endless drone of why OM is just peachy and a friend and he and his wife can live here and we can all have dinner together and be best friends and he wants to be your friend too and if you loved me you'd know that I need him and he's not a threat to this marriage and if I was married to someone like him I wouldn't need another man and and and.....Well, you get the point.

Georgia

Here's a way to open the conversation...

"What do you need from me to help you end all contact with OM?"

And you can keep repeating it...

You will hear...

"Why would I want to end contact?"
and you repeat

"What do you need from me to help you end all contact with OM?"

"I don't want to end contact, he's my friend."

"What do you need from me to help you end all contact with OM?"


"Are you going to keep repeating that?"

(In a soft voice)
"Just one thing I can do?"

I don't know"

"What do you need from me to help you end all contact with OM?"


"I don't need anything, I'm not going to end."

"I love you, but what do you need from me to help you end all contact with OM?"

"Hmmmm"


Or at least I hope she is not that stubborn, but you see how this can work...or words to this effect...

What is a way to open the conversation, let her know you want her to stop, and let her know you are willing to give her what she is missing in her M (and that she is getting from OM)?

Affection: Includes sleeping together in the same bed, smiles, being present with her.

H&O: Agree with you with focusing on your Georgia Principles.

Conversation: Includes listening to her conversation with NO meaningful response.

Hang in there and try to enjoy YOURSELF in preparation for ongoing battle.

<small>[ November 12, 2004, 02:30 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

StillHere...that's a great suggestion! I'll look for an opportunity to try that out. I have found (from some of your previous posts) that the logic you've espoused in some of these convos has worked really well. I'll see how this one goes.

I'll definitely work on these other areas of affection. I suspect that we will be back in the same bed tonight. We usually end up snugglin', and I can see that happening, if...there is no LB.

I hope that she'll still want to tell me about her day. She usually likes to unload on me when we meet up...and I'm glad she is able to do that. I'll still be there to listen, if she wants me to.

Good convo starter today..#1 S / DIL signed a contract on a house this afternoon. He called, they're excited. About 3m from OUR home.

I still have an unexplainable peace about this whole thing. I was near panic yesterday when this first happened, but steady, cool MB heads were there for me and that meant so much.

StillHere:

That reminds me of a suggestion Still Seeking gave me a while back: "What would it take for YOU 2 want 2 end all contact?"

I've not asked that yet, because I know what the answer will be and how many times I have 2 repeat myself, be redundant, say the same thing over and over again...

-ol' 2long

She tried really, really hard to fight. Tears, name calling, telling me how she is afraid of me...asking what kind of man would throw his wife out. Asked how she would ever afford to live on her income?

You are going to get blamed for all kinds of stuff you didn't do, and things you didn't say.

Be ready, and if other people think you are a monster (because of what she tells them) you can tell them - All I am trying to do is get her to end her affair, and to save our marriage. That's why I'm a monster - and I suppose I will say one until she divorces me.

Be prepared for the worst from her, as has been said, this is an addiction, and she wants to keep it.

Once you have the lingo down, you can start making a plan. Plan A for now, but there can be (and should be) consenquences for having an A, and you need to let her feel them. Plan A does not mean you do anything she wants, it means don't LB, but you can let her feel the results of what she is doing.

Mthrrhbard on Plan A and natural consequences

You are being careful, and thoughtful, and that is good, don't get tired of it and blow up any time soon, it doesn't help.

Mimi is really good help, and it would help to go back and read what Star had to say again, now that you are not feeling so snowed under. I think you are doing well all things considered.

SS

<small>[ November 12, 2004, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Just wanted to let everyone know that I am home.

WW is really upset that I didn't vacuuum the house last night like I said I would. Never mind that she called me before I got home and told me she wanted me to leave, she's upset that I didn't vacuum...go figure...

Anyway, she said she thought it would be nice if we go spend the evening together since "I ran off last night"... I told her that would be great, I'd enjoy that. So, we're off to dinner shortly!!

No LB...but we've go to have some more NC discussion. This is her way to make me forget about it.

I'll not fall for it.

Georgia

GG,

NO R talks at dinner. No NC talks at dinner. Use dinner for serious deposits and just plain fun...use dead time (vacuuming time LOL) for R/NC talks.

GG - Okay, just an opinion here, but I think you may be "rushing things" a bit. I just wanted to throw an anchor out and put a little drag on your boat for a minute. It is important to stay deliberate and under control, and sometimes you have to trim sails when it gets to blowing too hard.

What I mean is that I KNOW how badly you want this contact to end. But consider this...your wife already reacts negatively to what she perceives as controlling. YOU contact the OM, or even the OM's wife, in an attempt to "go around her" and get him to end the contact and it's more likely to blow up in your face. What reason makes you believe that he even cares to end the contact? He is deeply involved in the whole thing and lied about his wife's "understanding" of it as much as your wife lied to you. There is, IMHO, NO reason to believe he has YOUR interest at heart and will not end the contact. But you better believe he'd tell your wife immediately that you tried to get him to stop and she will make you the "bad guy" again, trying to control her actions....again.

It's a "lose-lose" proposition as I see it right now. You continue in Plan A. You do not have a conversation about the contacts more than ONCE per week. She already knows your stance on the subject. You need to be showing your love for her so that when she does start to break out of the fog she will begin to remember how "good" you were while she was being so "bad." That's when you'll start making Love Bank deposits. Until then, she will be struggling with anger and fear about the impending end of her "friendship."

So enjoy dinner. No relationship talk. In fact, how about a whole weekend free of relationship talk. I think YOU need a breather too. Think of it like the break before the next round of the heavyweight championship fight.

God bless.

Good Morning to all..

Well, things have defintely turned around for the weekend. WW is acting loving and kind, with moments of trying to get some LB. For the most part, dinner was really, really pleasant. However, some moments like her asking me: "Did you sleep good last night?" (alone, Thursday night). To which I simply replied: "yes". She was anticipating my follow-up "and did you?", which never came. Later she said, "if I'm going to sleep on that bed (upstairs), I think th frame needs to be tightened". To which I replied "okay".

After some shopping, we went to a movie and she seemed really happy. Back home to visiting #2 son & DIL. At 1:00 AM they invited us to play Clue, which we did because I could tell WW liked the idea. I was in bed about 2:30, gone for the night until 7:30 AM. When I awoke, guess what I found next to me....WW. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Seems as though it's going to be a Plan A weekend after all. Thanks to all for the support and prayers...I'm trying to remember to slow down...one day at a time. I know my propensity is to fix it by sundown.

Georgia

I'm noticing that you are using the computer at home.

GREAT!!!!

Hang in there! One day at a time!!!!

Good Morning...

Yes, I've just made it a habit that anytime I walk by the computer, I just reboot it. I see now how wrong I was to allow this kind of "secret" thing to go on right under my nose. WW, so far, has said nothing about this.

Yesterday was a very pleasant day. Combo of some household stuff (in the garage, bliss for a few hours) and a day spent with WW "loafing". She was loving and kind, actually reaching over and taknig my arm sometimes, holding hands, etc. Our lazer tag got canceled by the other couple, we'll save that for later.

I've not seen any contact with OM since I last reported so. I don't know if she's sneaking, or if it's very near 0. I've had no more R or NC discussion, and I think we've both enjoyed the break from the intensity of it all.

I'm trying to remember...one day at a time.

Mimi - I've got some med ? I'd like to send your way on Monday, too long to go into right now.

Thanks to all for kind words and prayers.

Georgia

Good Morning -

Thanks again to all for the excellent advice given last week. I've continued to review and it seems like the panic of last Thursday is a lifetime away. At times, I'm tempted to think that resolution is at hand, but I know that this is just a lull in the storm.

Some questions for you veteran Plan A folks:

How is intimacy viewed at the stage I'm in right now? Putting this as gently as I can, WW seemed to encourage such up to a cerain point, then it was like all of a sudden her mood shiftly wildly and I was quickly rebuffed. Is it best just to avoid all intimacy, or is there a "rule" to follow here? What experience can others relate?

Mimi - Some questions for you, if I may:

EA: It appears, as we’ve discussed, that your FWH and my WW have gone through similar metamorphosis. Does your husband have any close male friends? My WW doesn’t really have any close friends, and I think that is going to make this situation more difficult to be resolved successfully. She has never really had any other female friends that she (alone) enjoys. She tells me that she doesn’t trust women and doesn’t want to get to know other women. I remember that both IC’s I saw ask almost immediately about her relationship with other women. My concern is that she relies on me to fill ALL her conversation EN’s, something I may never be able to do no matter my Herculean effort to do so.

As you’ve noted that your husband is a talker, and you’ve had to learn to just sit and listen, have you any thoughts on this subject?

MEDICAL: I can’t find anything on the web-sites that I‘m researching, so let me pose to you. Last Thanksgiving day, WW came down with Shingles. Upper left chest, across shoulder, upper left back. This has completely cleared up.

About 6 months prior, she had a severe outbreak (probably 20-30) of red bumps on her left “rear”, none on the right side. Her PCP gave her a topical ointment, which didn’t seem to do anything at all. Now, 1 1/2 years later, those bumps are still slowly coming and going, and leaving scars. They don’t seem to be another outbreak of Shingles as they are without pain, only minor itching.

Any possibility of a relationship to the potential neurological issues we discussed last week?

WW had a lot of joint pain over the weekend, especially feet. She’s still showing no interest in seeking any other medical care.

I'm still praying for you and your "final stuggle" you related last week.

Georgia

Good Morning, Georgia:

I am so happy for you to be experiencing this quiet time. I don't want to bring bad news. However, as you well know, it's not over until she agrees to establish NC with him. To prevent heartache for yourself, I encourage you to keep working on that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Does your husband have any close male friends? My WW doesn’t really have any close friends, and I think that is going to make this situation more difficult to be resolved successfully. She has never really had any other female friends that she (alone) enjoys. She tells me that she doesn’t trust women and doesn’t want to get to know other women. I remember that both IC’s I saw ask almost immediately about her relationship with other women. My concern is that she relies on me to fill ALL her conversation EN’s, something I may never be able to do no matter my Herculean effort to do so.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have really touched on a significant issue here. That's why it's so helpful for me to communicate with you. I can continue to process my issues. I have even talked to Steve Harley about this in my counseling. I will share my perspective from my own personal experience. Let's see how my experience fits with yours.

In hindsight, I have realized that a major problem in my marriage was my attempt to make my FWH into being the person that I wanted him to be. I failed to accept him as the person that he is. When we first began dating, 30 years ago, we were inseparable. We were best friends and isolated ourselves from others but thoroughly enjoyed our time together. We were each others' worlds. Outsiders may have considered this unhealthy. My mother always tried to bring me out, saying, "Your husband can't be your whole life". He resented my mother for this. He was my whole life so when he left I was utterly devastated.

We became involved in our professions, had kids, became involved in church work, community activities... You know the deal. I thought I was supposed to have friends. I thought I was supposed to get out and socialize. I began playing that role. I thought that was the role that my H wanted me to play. Wow, we looked like the All-American couple on the outside.

However, in reality, my H was yearning for the good old days. To be fair, that's what he bargained for with me. I've had to accept that--it is what it is. He was deprived my his mother and is needful of a lot of attention. I somehow knew this from the start of our relationship and babied him. He wanted this back and the CLEAN-UP WOMAN came in and started doing it for him again. ONCE I WENT BACK TO BEING THE WOMAN THAT HE MARRIED DURING MY PLAN A. HIS DREAM CAME TRUE. I became MIMI (not my real name) again. The OW really couldn't compete with this when he was with her full-time.

I know this is a long story. But what I am saying here is if your wife doesn't have female friends and does not want female friends. ACCEPT THAT. She is not going to be different than she has ever been, especially at this time in her life. I kind of identify with her in this regard. I tried to convince myself that I needed female friends. Then, when my FWH left me, I realized that he was who I needed. I found that I couldn't live without him. I guess I am saying. THAT'S THE PERSONAL COVENANT THAT WE MADE WITH EACH OTHER MANY YEARS AGO. It's not for anyone else to understand.

I struggled with this when my FWH came home. He continues to want all of my attention. I used to give it to him and that's what he needs and wants. He openly acknowledges it to me now. He wants to hold on to me, touch me, talk to me incessantly almost. I asked Steve Harley if this is OK, is this healthy? Steve Harley basically told me that this is the STORY OF, THE NATURE OF MY MARRIAGE. Do I want to be married or not? I have found that when I meet my FWH's needs for Sexual Fulfillment, Affection, Conversation, Domestic Tranquility that are hooked up into all of this, he also fully meets my ENS and I don't need anyone else.

I am saying that it is OK for you to try to meet these needs for her. What works in YOUR MARRIAGE should be determined by you and your wife, not me, not a therapist, not anyone else.

In regards to intimacy are your referring to Sexual Fulfillment? Do you feel comfortable elaborating a little further on your question, if so? I am not clear about what you are asking.

MEDICAL:

Her underlying medical condition may have made her more susceptible to shingles. The other red bumps that you make reference to sound like hives (chronic uticaria) which is sometimes aggravated by stress/anxiety.

I hope haven't confused you by saying too much. Let me know if this all makes sense.

<small>[ November 15, 2004, 08:38 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Just to throw another wrench in the monkey works, from reading another posters description of their H's "hives" and the medicine he was taking, the general consensus was he had herpes.

I know you don't want to think about an STD, but with the bumps coming and going...it is a possibility...not to be ruled out...but not to be assumed either...just another perspective.

As far as your W's medical condition, I have been battling similar symptoms. My symptoms came on all of a sudden and I had a metal taste in my mouth too, I called poison control and they told me it sounded like mercury poisoning. Depending on which type of doctor she sees she may get a very different diagnosis, from fibromyalgia, to chronic fatigue syndrome, to MS...very similar in symptoms. Just another thought.

Mimi -

I want to explore with you further the friendship issues...we do have some differences there. Let me come back to that, maybe later today at lunch when I have some time.

Thanks for the med advice...

Keep up the good work encouraging others on the other posts, you're helping a lot of people.

BTW - Glad MIMI's not your real name..

Georgia (NMRN, either)

<small>[ November 15, 2004, 09:44 AM: Message edited by: Georgia Guy ]</small>

I guess I would maintain lots of the AFFECTION.

When my FWH would suddenly turn cold like that, unfortunately I've learned that it was due to thoughts of her. They crazily think that they are being unfaithful to the OP.

However, the OP is not in that bed so keep up with the PLAN A. Listening and stroking....

Unfortunately, he will remain in her mind especially if she keeps getting her drug fix....

There's the good news and the bad news.

Georgia,

Been reading and learning from your thread, but wanted to jump in on the medical stuff. I hope you encourage your wife to go to her doctor and tell him/her of her symptoms.

She should get some routine blood tests done to see if anything is abnormal. I've had some experience with the symptoms she talking about and there are some autoimmune diseases that could apply. Especially the rash issues and joint pain.

Interestingly autoimmune diseases can be triggered by acute stress. Blessings, CSue

BTW, Lupus has symptoms of rash and joint pain.

CSUE reminded me of this.

Thanks.

Thanks, mimi & csue, for the med update. I remember that Lupus was discussed at one time, I don't recall if it was definitely eliminated somehow or if it's still a possibility.

I was working on the "relationship" narrative to compare to yours, Mimi. I was almost done and we had a power outage. It will be forthcoming.

Georgia