Nice try, Mimi...but I don’t think the analytical thinking is evident of OCD. Without getting too specific, my education and career is in “analytical thinking”. I know that my propensity in this area may not be to my advantage in my M, but that’s where this behavior (IMO) comes from, not OCT. It is a struggle for me (as you have numerous times pointed out) to shift out of this mode.

I’m sure the need to IM is, again, evidence of MY inability to meet her EN’s. (OKAY, OKAY, the ball’s back in my court. You don’t need to say it).

Your helping me develop an interesting thought about routine vs. variety. I know WW absolutely must have a routine (if she has a day off from work, she may stay in bed until 2:00 PM). I have thought that variety would be good for her...maybe I’m wrong on this one. I do try hard to keep to her schedule. Maybe it’s really me that needs variety. I must ponder this more...
My wife doesn’t share your FWH’s desire for spousal perfection (very fortunate for me!). I stay in shape, but I couldn’t meet the criteria you are describing.

The question to OM fitting into my W’s ideal is, I think, obvious. OM is unemployed, FOM was retired (military). Both have been able to be at her disposal for unfettered conversation at any time of the day or night. I work & I sleep. Therefore, I fall short in this area. I have at times considered whether I should just quit work and stay home, but there is a problem with that. I (we) still need money. Truth is....we could maybe downsize to near poverty level and live the rest of our lives off of our savings, sometimes I wonder if that is what it will take. From what you’ve described to me of your H’s need for conversation, I know you understand, but I think my WW may take it to a little more extreme.

Georgia

<small>[ November 17, 2004, 12:08 PM: Message edited by: Georgia Guy ]</small>

Is there anger brewing here????

It's OK to vent! Just wondering......

I'm not sure in which subject area you suspect anger, but there was none intended. (Not even venting, really).

If in the OCD area, most certainly not - just jousting a bit.

On the being available 24 hours issue, I have indeed wondered if I should consider something like this. Having a career while taking time out for 1 hour phone calls is indeed difficult, and I'm still not available enough for WW.

Rest assured...no anger.

Georgia

Hi Georgia:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> have at times considered whether I should just quit work and stay home, but there is a problem with that. I (we) still need money. Truth is....we could maybe downsize to near poverty level and live the rest of our lives off of our savings, sometimes I wonder if that is what it will take.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sorry. I thought you were being sarcastic here but you were being serious. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

You are facing an issue that I had to take a look at in all of this. I touched on it before. I'll just speak for myself.

I once looked at my H's need for attention as meaning that he is overly needed and dependent.I made it into being unhealthy. However, in the MB/Steve Harley view of things, I was neglecting him, that it is normal for a spouse to want undivided attention and closeness from their life partner when the partner is present. Steve called me on this and said that I probably gave my H lots of attention and affection while I was dating and, now that I am long-married, stopped practicing this important skill. He encouraged me to think of it like a workout, that I have to build up my attention skills. So when my FWH became deprived by me and needful of attention, he became addicted to getting those needs met by the CLEAN-UP WOMAN.

I'm suggesting that you take a hard look at yourself and ask yourself WHERE WAS GEORGIA WHEN SHE WAS IMing ON THE COMPUTER WITH THESE GUYS? Were you at work? I don't think you necessarily have to go the extreme of being available 24/7.

I think a major part of the attraction to the OP is that person's ability to focus on the particular needs that they are fulfilling. All he has to do is talk to her on the phone or whatever, to be at her beck and call. What a DREAM COME TRUE!! We, as spouses ,are in the real world and have to go to work, take care of children,etc. We don't want to step into that fantasy world with them; I can't have a perfect body---I wish, I try. However, we do want to begin fulfilling that need that the OP focuses on. We can win out in the end though because we do also offer the legitimate stuff.

My point is that you fill an valuable need in offering the Financial Stability that the OM does not offer. Now you also have to address the other needs better.

This is just my opinion as an objective bystander here.

I'm sorry if I'm going on and on but it helps me too to process all of this stuff for myself.

Hi again, Mimi –

You know, I’m really surprised that this is the MB stand on the issue of what I would call “excessive” attention. I, like you at one time, have thought of this as an issue of being excessively dependent (like co-dependency?). Now that the boys are gone, she has a lot of extra time that needs to be filled CONSTRUCTIVELY. Instead, it seems as though this void is being filled by either me or the OM. Ex: Monday night she asked what I expected her to do on nights she couldn’t sleep – like what other choices could there possibly be than find ANOTHER MAN with whom to talk. I know, I know..fog talk - but I can’t (I don’t think, anyway) be expected to be there at any time she wants to talk, day or night. However, your CLEAN-UP WOMAN situation is exactly what has happened to me. It’s those times I’m not there (at work, asleep, mowing the yard) that she turns to the CLEAN-UP MAN. It is extremely rare that I’m not with her otherwise. This would even include sitting down to do work at my desk (at home) or working in the garage. I am almost always with her. Are you sure that the advice you are giving me is in agreement with what SH would say in this situation?

I can be very thankful that she wants to be with me. We still enjoy each other’s company (most of the time, anyway), but what is the limit on this time thing? Or is there a limit?

Don’t apologize for going on and on. Now that you’ve pegged my analytical nature, you should know that I keep going back and re-reading these posts from everyone to pound it into my brain.

Georgia

Mimi-

Please remember to give me your thoughts on the med stuff.

Georgia

I will communicate with you about the medical stuff tomorrow morning.

The Harleys take on our ATTENTION subject is discussed in the RECREATION section under EMOTIONAL NEEDS on the HOME PAGE.

It's also discussed in HIS NEEDS HER NEEDS. I let someone borrow my copy.

Good Morning,

Well, I woke up last night, no WW in bed. Checked the upstairs bedroom, there she was, on the phone. I ask if she was talking to OM, she said yes. I asked that she remember my request, no talking to OM in our home. She said she'd be to bed in a few minutes. I went downstairs and picked up another phone and ask OM if he knew I had asked WW not to talk to him in our home, he said yes. I asked that he not call her anymore, he said he didn't call, WW did. I told him it was his choice to continue the conversation, and that I considered it very disrespectful to talk to my WW in my own home and I would ask that he not do it anymore. Then I hung up, no need for a long conversation on this one.

WW came downstairs all cheery acting, said she was ready for bed. I told her I wasn't sleepy anymore and was going out for a drive as I didn't want to argue. I left for about 2 hours.

When I came back, she was waiting on me in bed. I got in, she snuggled and acted as though all was well.

Sigh.....

Georgia

<small>[ November 18, 2004, 06:39 AM: Message edited by: Georgia Guy ]</small>

(((((Georgia Guy)))))

The addictive nature of these affairs is very frustrating for a BS. Having just come off of another contact myself this past Saturday, I know how hard it is to "just keep going" sometimes.

I just wanted to let you know that I think that you handled the "situation" in a terrific manner in picking up the phone and saying what you did to the OM. The simple fact that he fell back on "excuses" like "she called me" is simply confirmation of what we all know....the OP does NOT care about you or your marriage, is selfish and weak.

BUT, you've stood your ground and made it clear that you will NOT tolerate or "accept" any contact between them. They both know this. GG, your wife's "waiting for you to come home" is indicative of her still being in the "cakewalking stage."

You may need to precipitate a crisis, because as long as you continue, as have I, to "still be there" even after repeated shots of "cra@ in the face" from the contacts, she will know that she can "get away with it" and that "someday you may simply surrender."

I'm not saying to run out and do this next thing, but it is something for you to analyze and consider the pros and cons. Your position is quite clear....no calling the OM from your home. A very reasonable request and not a "demand" that she couldn't simply call from somewhere else. Her position is equally clear....too bad, get used to it, I'm calling and I don't care if you don't like it.

Sounds like a child processing their "wants and desires" versus a parent's "house rules" doesn't it?

So here's the thing to consider....call the phone company and put a block on all long distance calling from your home phone. Let the "System" "enforce" the no calling from home request, so you don't have to request it anymore.
You will likely get a code to "unblock" it if YOU need to make a long distance call.

GG, you are doing great. The patience is required, but it is draining.

God bless.

Thanks, FH...

I think that at this stage of the game, and in her current thought, she will find a way to contact him no matter what I do.

1. Home phone
2. Cell phone
3. Internet Voice
4. Work phone

I just don't think that I can actually stop the contact by force. It's going to have to be her decision to do so.

At least I was able to handle last night w/o LB. I think you kind of get used to this sort of thing and maybe, in some sick way, it gets easier.

Very, very frustrating to say the least.

Georgia

Good Morning to all....

Suffice it to say, from the activities of last night...that I am very, very discouraged this morning.

I need words of encouragement & wisdom from some of you seasoned veterans.

Georgia

Update from GA (9:00 AM)...just talked to WW, all seems so well with her, asking how my day is going, etc. Who is insane here, is it me or her? How can normal people behave like this? I don't think they can, lending further credence to the theory that an actual alien has taken my W and replaced her with some form of a Stepford Wife..but with even less of a soul (and no SF).

<small>[ November 18, 2004, 08:02 AM: Message edited by: Georgia Guy ]</small>

Wow, well done GG!!!

No, you can't stop them if they want to continue contact. BUT, your WW KNOWS this is wrong, in her trying to ocnvince you she is really trying to convince herself.

It was a bold step last night.

When you are feeling up to it you can ask her what happened last night, why she needed to talk with him, and what she felt after you got on the phone.

As far as med goes...you can do nothing for her until she decides to go to the Dr., get a diagnosis, and take care of herself...
Has she considered (or a Dr. recommended) Anti-Depressants? With the hormones or lack of come chemical imbalances in the brain that can cause mood swings and sadness, the pills can help (they help my mood swings...)

StillHere -

Nice to hear a friendly (and sane) "voice" this morning, thanks.

She has (about a year ago) taken AD's. Zoloft left her like a zombie, neither of us liked it. Paxil somewhat returned her to a state of normalcy. She now refuses to take anything because she "doesn't want to be dependent on drugs", and besides, "my problems aren't ones that can solved by a pill".. etc.

You know, the chances I'm ever going to mention last night to her again is nil. I will hear nothing that I've not heard 1,000X, and it will do nothing except (maybe) start a fight.

I highly respect your suggestions on things to say to fogbound WS's, but I'm going to leave this one alone.

Georgia

OH, GEORGIA!!!

My heart goes out to you. I really know what you are going through. It's like a living nigntmare.

Keep in mind that the OM is her antidepressant. She is addicted to him, finding him her only source of pleasure.

I was counseled to come up with a plan to try to cut my FWH off from the drug dealer. So I'd agree with FOREVER on this one. Sure, you can't really stop the contact but you can make it extremely hard for her. Make her have to go to a telephone booth or whatever to talk to him. In my view, the desperation that my FWH started to experience EVENTUALLY caused major problems in their relationship. Rather than focusing on their fantasies and their love talk they had to focus on how to get together.

So first assignment would be decide what and how you will intercede upon their access to each other. It is not reasonable for you to be spend your hard-earned money on assisting her in talking to him. That is enabling her addiction!!!!

Then, I would have a discussion with her and tell hher calmly and respectfully what you have decided to do. Also, in this NO CONTACT DISCUSSION, you would reiterate your desire to assist her in her plan to cease contact with the OM. I think you need this discussion TODAY. She is disrespecting you, ignoring you, deceiving you and I'm not sure you can take it much longer without it doing major damage to your feelings about her.

Conflict Avoidance and Denial are NOT OKAY! Remember EMBRACE CONFLICT. I've added DENIAL to my list of frailties that allowed my FWH's A to continue at length for so long. My DENIAL AND CONFLICT AVOIDANCE really enabled the A. Dobson has a recent newspaper column about this which my FWH has on the coffee table for me to read.

Get back on the battlefield, Georgia. One thing you've for sure learned is what a wimp that OM is. What a jerk to blame this on her!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Thanks, Mimi...

I'm going to think on this one a while today.

I must candidly say that my feelings for her are already being significantly impacted. Trying not to be too reactionary to the events of the day, I think I am at a crisis stage myself. Something's gotta happen, and it's gotta happen pretty soon.

Georgia

From what I am gathering here from what you are typing/saying, you definitely need to think about having a SERIOUS DISCUSSION with her.

What are your thoughts? Do you want help weeding them out?

Stby...I'm on the phone with ....you know who.

Yes, all help is appreciated.

Okay, my thoughts...for your weeding pleasure.

As far as SERIOUS DISCUSSIONS, I’m not sure how much more serious I can be than the discussions I have already had. What would a serious discussion entail, at this point? I’ve already set the boundaries, told her she is destroying our marriage, told her she must come up with her own plan if mine is disagreeable, etc. What else is there to say?

I get what you (and FH) are saying about impinging on the communication means. Remember our discussion about controlling and not appearing like my father, etc? How do I do such a thing as cutting phone & internet service without fueling her belief that I am a monster and OM has open, loving arms?

This is all so complicated. I’m having a hard time “analytically thinking” through this one Mimi...(I didn’t take that course, apparently.). My natural inclination, probably not the best one, is to tell her that she needs to go sow her “wild oats” at the age of 48. If she decides she wants to be married after that, then we can come up with our Plan of Mutual Respect (probably wrong term, but you know what I mean).

I didn’t tell you this part. Tuesday night, we were in a restaurant that we frequently visit. We had a new waiter, probably about 25 y.o. I guess (okay, I know) he was a good looking guy. WW made an initial comment about how good looking he was, Scott (our usual waiter) had better watch out because this guy is better looking, etc. So far, okay. But then she just kept on and on about how good looking the guy is, and how “I better keep an eye on her because she’s beginning to notice those younger guys”. What kind of a comment is that? How would she like it if I commented that I’d like to have the waitress on the table next to us for desert?

Ok, uncalled for, but that’s the way it made me feel.

So yes, feel free to weed out this patch.

Today, you can comment that you are beginning to sense anger.....

Georgia

Update, 11:45 - You'll like this. A very chipper WW has called and asked if I'd like for her to fix me spaghetti for dinner. I must seem awfully shallow....pasta dinner and I'll share my W.

<small>[ November 18, 2004, 10:42 AM: Message edited by: Georgia Guy ]</small>

OH! GEORGIA!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Update, 11:45 - You'll like this. A very chipper WW has called and asked if I'd like for her to fix me spaghetti for dinner. I must seem awfully shallow....pasta dinner and I'll share my W.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tell her that you will fix the cake that she loves to eat. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As far as SERIOUS DISCUSSIONS, I’m not sure how much more serious I can be than the discussions I have already had. What would a serious discussion entail, at this point? I’ve already set the boundaries, told her she is destroying our marriage, told her she must come up with her own plan if mine is disagreeable, etc. What else is there to say?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why another discussion? Undoubtedly, she did not get it the other times so you are repeating your mantra again. I would not pretend that last night did not happen. She was up in your face, totally disregarding your request as if it did not happen. I advocate the LOVE MUST BE TOUGH APPROACH as well as MB. Dodson insists that he has not seen a couple reconcile unless this approach is taken. He thinks that allowing the WS to treat you in a disrespectful manner gives the impression that you are condoning the A. I buy his viewpoint and do not feel that it is inconsistent with MB. Dobson recommends using a calm, collected yet emphatic tone of voice which is not LBing. LBing is controlling, demanding disrespectful. So this discussion, number one, is a repeat of what you have said before because she obviously ignored you. Secondly, in this new discussion, I would set put forth a plan about what you are going to do about ceasing the communication between them at least in your house. You almost have to do this, WHY?

NUMBER ONE: The only way that she will stop this is by total unavailability of the drug source. You have got to buy the significance of the addictive aspect of this. Do you know any alcoholics or drug abusers? They get desperate to maintain their supply.

NUMBER TWO, I think you are reaching your limit. This seems like a transition phase, some of your last efforts to encourage her to get herself together, to let her know that this is serious business, to make it very clear that her behavior is not acceptable to you.

I think the stuff about the 25 year old waiter was her trying to provoke you. It didn't work. However, her talking to the OM in the bedroom is provocative and her continuation of this style of wanting to get you to pretend this is not happening.... She wants you to buy into her delusion so that she does not have to admit to herself how crazy/bizarre this all is...

The medical issues aren't as pertinent right now. I do think they are relevant in terms of her use of him as an antidepressant.

Guess who just called "just to chat".

Let me digest this a bit, I'll follow up again before I leave today.

How did your FWH respond when you started clamping down on the supply? I do understand the addict parallel.

Med stuff on hold for right now - agreed.

Georgia