Georgia,

I don't know if this has been suggested to you already, but I think you need to make an appointment with Steve Harley.

He will help you deal with the crazy behavior of your wife and give you a solid plan with choices to make, boundaries to set etc.

The Harleys, Penny and other marriage recovery coaches earn their expertise in this specific field and they are expert in dealing with the counter-intuitive stuff that come with the territory.

I think Mimi benefitted tremendously from coaching with Steve as well. It's well worth the $$$ in my case because it saved a huge amount of pain & suffering for both my husband and me. Think about it.

To be honest with you, Georgia. My FWH decided to leave me when I clamped down. In the long run, though, as much as it hurt me, it was what ended up saving my marriage. When he left, I did PLAN B and he learned that he needed me more than the drug supply she offered. AS STEVE HARLEY TOLD ME, THE DRUG STOPPED MAKING HIM HIGH.

This is not what you need to hear about now. Just believe and understand that getting her away from the drugs or having her to resort to desperate measures to get them is the answer. The key is to put this all in her hands. You do not want to assist her in own self-destruction. You love her too much for that.

Csue, Mimi -

Okay, mimi has previously suggested the SH approach. I think the time has come for me to do it. Yes, I think it will be worth it. I think I am beginning to scare myself because I'm beginning to think that life would be better without her than with her. Maybe my own foggy thinking?

I may have been a little gun shy because I've seen 2 local C's and that was nothing but a waste of time. I seem to be telling them a story unlike anything they had ever heard...and they were bewildered.

I'm going to take one of those "Mimi mandated" deep breaths. All serious discussions will go on hold pending a plan with the Harley gang. I'll enjoy spaghetti tonight and, who knows, maybe having a bigger smile on my face tomorrow! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

But...I promise to stay the course (Mimi - you hold me accountable. You know me.)

When I contact MB, should I request SH, or can you do that? Advice, please.

There is no way to express my gratitude to all who have seen me through so far - Mimi...words can NEVER adequately express my gratitude.

Georgia

<small>[ November 19, 2004, 06:48 AM: Message edited by: Georgia Guy ]</small>

I just absolutely LOVE STEVE HARLEY. Yes you can ask for him. I think you would profit from his approach tremendously !!!!

Don't forget to get us posted especially regarding what Steve has to say!!!

<small>[ November 18, 2004, 01:07 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Don't worry, I'll continue to keep everyone posted. Perhaps someday I'll be one of the MB "wise guys" here offering sage advice.

Mimi - I'm serious about the accountability stuff..you understand me, you know I'd rather stick my head in the sand than confront anyone.

Okay, I feel like there is a new plan. I'll send an e-mail to MB today and try to get the ball rolling.

Georgia

Update: I've sent an e-mail request to MB, asked for 1st appt. tomorrow afternoon. I'll post when I receive confirmation.

<small>[ November 18, 2004, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: Georgia Guy ]</small>

You can call to make an appointment. The number is 888-639-1639.

Mimi - They close at 2:00 (CST), according to their voice mail. Therefore, I sent the e-mail.

Georgia

DOn't feel let down if you can't get an appointment until next week. He stays pretty booked up and may not work on Fridays.

Hang in there!!!!

I put Monday and Tuesday as my 2nd and 3rd choices. We'll see what we can do..I'm looking forward to meeting with SH.

Seems like last Thursday (the panic day when WW took to feverishly vacuuming in my absence) was a lifetime away.

Have a good evening.

Georgia

Georgia Guy,
I've read most of this thread and am in awe of your commitment to this woman and your marriage. I'm really new to this world, but there were two things I wanted to say
1) Your WW seems to have some serious mental, physical, and psychological problems. Any sign of these prior to her EA? I know you can't make her see a MD, but a host of medical diagnoses come to mind when reading about her symptomology-all of which need attention and not ibuprofen.
2)Please don't think I'm a racist, but I'm just wondering if this OM is wanting to use your WW to get to the US. I've known more than one story similar to this where the guy just wanted a green card. You said this guy wanted children. Does your wife want to start another family at age 48?

I could be way off base, but these things just kept coming to mind while reading your "story."
I hope all works out the way you'd like it to.

TNbelle -

Thank you for the words of encouragement, I hope you're not bored to tears reading all of this. It has been a bit of a rocky road, and at times my commitment wans.

I've wondered the same thing about her "friend". However, I don't think he's just in it for a green card. And I KNOW that she's not wanting to start another family.

Tonight was very difficult, I had hoped to keep things on a lighter note until my meeting with SH. However, we have gotten into a discussion of separation tonight. I'll write more about this tomorrow.

Georgia

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As far as SERIOUS DISCUSSIONS, I’m not sure how much more serious I can be than the discussions I have already had. What would a serious discussion entail, at this point? I’ve already set the boundaries, told her she is destroying our marriage, told her she must come up with her own plan if mine is disagreeable, etc. What else is there to say?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Georgia Guy, part of my difficulty in replying to you is that there are many similarities between your WW and mine, and it brings back memories of what you will likely have to go through before things start to get better. So, a few comments that may be a little hard to "hear," but I think that they are necessary for you to chew on and put into the context of your marriage and all the information that you have "at hand" that we don't have.

1. There have been no "serious discussion" to date. You've done a lot of talking, for sure, but your wife is involved in an affair and everything you say goes in one ear and out the other. Everything is "heard" and "seen" through the filter and the prism of "how can I maintain my affair and the 'best of both worlds'?" So many "repeat" discussion are going to be necessary. But YOU are obviously the type that "once you've said it" it has been said and shouldn't have to be repeated....right?

2. Your experience with the 2 counselors doesn't surprise me, not any more than the "trouble" you are having getting through to your wife. You have been, and still are, approaching this from the standpoint of what YOU can do. That is fine up to a point, as in making changes in yourself that may be needed, but it's not going fight the spiritual battle for you...and that's the fight that "counts."

3. GG, you are both professing Christians, but I have seen precious little of utilizing God's resources. Your wife is trapped in SIN, and her human nature is not allowing her to see the sin for what it is. It is first and foremost as sin against God. UNTIL she addresses that problem, you can do all you want, get all the advice you want, talk to all the counselors that you want, make yourself over into a new person....but none of it will win the spiritual war that is raging. If you truly want to begin to address the problem, you both need to be in Joint Christian Marital Counseling with a trained counselor who will demand obedience to God as a primary starting point.

4. It's likely to get a lot worse before it gets better. The "crisis" stage has not been reached yet so your wife has little "reason" to make a difficult and definitive choice. Right now she is able to "balance" both of you and doing "what she feels like." I hate to be brutal, but there is no room in a marriage for anyone but husband, wife, and God. It is a COVENANT with each other and God. "Forsaking ALL others and keeping myself only unto you until death do us part." I KNOW you want your marriage, but it is already over if YOU believe in your vows and covenant. The only hope left is whether or not your wife will come to understand that OBEDIENCE to God is the only choice for a Christian....not how we feel or whether or not we "like" what God tells us to do.

5. You are reaching the "resentment" and the "reality" phase of your processing of the affair. You probably already know that some serious things are going to need to be done if your marriage is to survive. But, like me, you don't "like" conflict, so you keep hoping that the status quo will change without the need to precipitate a crisis. Yep....it IS very scary and the future is unknown and seems fraught with peril. THAT's what affairs DO to a marriage. SHE has already chosen to violate the "contract" of exclusivity that is an inherent part of the marriage. You CANNOT control her, it has to be her choice. But as long as you "enable" the status quo to continue, she has no reason to face the reality of her choices and the enticing nature of sin and temptation.

This is where "standing for the Lord" costs. It is NOT always easy, but your choice, as a Christian, is clear. YOU don't have any choice but to stand for the Lord and His clear commands, even if it is God's will that your marriage should end and that you should lose "everything." The battle is for your wife's soul, not just your marriage. Adulterers WILL NOT be heaven unless they repent and seek God's forgiveness and follow Him in humble obedience. Plain and simple. You are fighting for both TODAY, your marriage, and your future together in heaven. Many are the believers who have fearfully faced an unknown future, yet they stood on God's promises and in God's strength, not their own strength or knowledge. It's time for you to choose God and let Him handle the "details."

It's going to get rough. So I am praying for you, as I am sure others are also.

God bless and strengthen you. Lean heavily upon His promise in Philippians 4:13.

Good Morning to all –

First, in response to TN’s question, I would say that many of the MLC and BIG M things started about 4 years ago. Both the EA and MED stuff a little over a year ago. It would be hard to say they began concurrently.

FH (and others) - I know what you are saying, but I don’t agree with you that it is that clear cut. Early in my experience as a Christian, I held some very dogmatic views which I have somewhat moderated over time. Yes, I know that my wife is deeply involved in sin AND self-deception. I think anyone could point out to her that she is in sin with as much conviction as possible, and it will make no difference to her right now. Yes, I do think I have the moral high road, but I think I’m walking a thin line not to hold that over her head. Her conversation last night centered on how, with this big house we have for only the 2 of us, then OM + OMW could live upstairs! OMW could help WW with housework, and WW + OM could sit on the couch all night and talk all they wanted.

The last place I would take this would be to my church staff. The first time this happened and the church staff got involved, their sum total of guidance to WW was “don’t do that anymore”. Maybe a good, solid answer – but like WW later told me, it made her feel like she was wearing a Scarlet A whenever she saw the minister. WW loves her church and I don’t intent to see her lose that, I think that is the one safe harbor in her life with which I do want to encourage her to stay involved. However, I am getting support from another local clergyman that I have known for 23 years and know to be a man of conviction AND compassion, and has taught HNHN as a course in his church.

It is only because of my strong convictions (and my daily devotion) that I have stayed the course up to this point. WW told me last night that our marriage vows don’t count because she was young, immature and naive when she married me, and she didn’t know what she was saying. Right now, I feel as though I am “standing for the Lord” by not compromising my very real convictions on what is right and wrong.

More about last nights ordeals (does anyone concur this is now the crisis stage?). WW talked to her brother for a long time before I got home. Her B is a counselor in another state. She tells me that he agrees that I can have a tendency to be controlling, and he has advised her of her “rights”. Half of all savings, 401K, etc. due to the fact that she stayed home to raise our family rather than pursuing an opportunity to have her own career. He’s also offered to let her move in with him. Georgia principles flew right out the window last night as I told her it was time for her to come up with her own plan to find her happiness.

She did seem to have a grasp on reality about life with OM. She told me she has thought about whether or not he would commit the rest of his life to taking care of her. Also, she questions if he will tire of her and see her as a middle-age overweight woman. (I told her I think she’s still beautiful and sexy). She thinks he may eventually look for someone else. (I just let her carry on about this....she was doing a fine job all by herself).

Without rehashing all the fog talk and LB’s, probably the biggest revelation of the night (to me, anyway) was that she (and OM) have actually discussed them moving here and living in our home (in a serious way). I guess I could work to support the whole crew, eh? That would, in my WW’s eyes (FH), be the “Christian” thing to do right now.

I (me, Georgia) suggested that it might be time for us to consider a separation. Probably chastising from Mimi on this one, but I’ve reached my limit. However, I did maintain that it is she who needs to come up with said plan for separation as she is the one who wants someone other than her H. She seemed a bit taken back that I would ask her to do this, because her plan would be to just leave. (But how can I afford to live?). I went to the closet, put on my London Fog, and said (Gee...I dunno...how would you afford to live?). Okay, no LF involved, but I did ask the question cluelessly, to which she didn’t have an answer. (Sense of humor is my defense mechanism, sometimes....).

Okay, enough for now. No confirmation from MB yet on the appt, I may call later this morning.

Georgia

Update: Appt. with SH Monday @ 11:30 EST.

<small>[ November 19, 2004, 08:12 AM: Message edited by: Georgia Guy ]</small>

------Her conversation last night centered on how, with this big house we have for only the 2 of us, then OM + OMW could live upstairs! OMW could help WW with housework, and WW + OM could sit on the couch all night and talk all they wanted-------
GG, do you really think your wife is "in reality?"
To me, this is absurd!! I don't have all of the politically correct terminology down as of yet, so I have to be myself (and please forgive me if it sounds blunt or rude). Your wife seems spolied rotten and completely outof touch with reality and her own stated values and beliefs! I too believe in doing all that you can to save a marriage, HOWEVER putting a scare into her may be what she needs to see what is real and what is a fantasy. Has she ever spoken of cultural and religious differences she may have with OM? I have known some women who married middle eastern men (not Americanized) and it can be a very difficult transition especially if the woman is used to having things her own way as it seems your wife may be. Again, I apologize for my non-PC comments. Please don't flame me!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She seemed a bit taken back that I would ask her to do this, because her plan would be to just leave. (But how can I afford to live?). I went to the closet, put on my London Fog, and said (Gee...I dunno...how would you afford to live?). Okay, no LF involved, but I did ask the question cluelessly, to which she didn’t have an answer. (Sense of humor is my defense mechanism, sometimes </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Putting on your London Fog!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I am LOL here this morning. She was so FULL OF THE FOG here! I hope you were not seriously listening to this conversation about you guys living happily ever after. If might work if you are interested in the swinging scene. I'm so sorry you sat there and listened to that crap.

FAMILY MEMBERS are a big problem. We haven't discussed this. However, I've found even my own family members, just like church members, to have their own agendas which come out.

Try to chill this weekend and wait to see what Steve has to say. Get out your pencil and paper with him. He will tell you exactly what to do and what to say. I'm so at ease now that you will be in his hands!!!!

Bottom line here though. Remember to let her work this out on her own. She still wants you to help her with this. If you are so unloving, controlling, etc., why does she need and want your help?? She even wants your help on how he will see her as a middle-aged woman, etc. She is so fogged out!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

<small>[ November 19, 2004, 08:52 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Good Morning, TNbelle –

Last night, during the “fog talk” (if you don’ know what that is, you’ll find out pretty quickly) she noted that she knows she has an easy life with me. Life with OM would not be so easy. I know that in raising my kids, I was careful not to spoil them, they had to work for an allowance, get jobs at 16, etc. I hate to compare raising kids to a M, but I have sometimes wondered if I’ve made it too easy for WW. Kinda late to think about that now, but it’s food for thought.

I think she realizes that once the “new” of the relationship would wear off (if she went there), that she would get treated like dirt the way he currently treats his W now. Also, she sees him as a “mission opportunity” as he has been raised, lets just say, “in another faith”.

Mimi - I called WW to check on her this morning (and wake up her,I'm also her 8:30 alarm clock), she was obviously either depressed or rolling in self pity. Told me she's thinking about how it's impossible to live with such a controlling man, live isn't even worth living, etc. I told her that I was sorry I hadn't met her needs, but I could no longer condone....CLICK... She hung up on me. My inclination was to rush home and check on her, but I didn't. She's driving this buggy now, if it goes over the cliff, so be it. I've tried.

Georgia

Remember, this is a process...

Giving Up is not part of the deal here!

Good Work on not going to rescue her. Gives her a dose on what life would be like without you.

She's struggling to find a way to manipulate you. Tee-hee!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> None of her slick plans are working because you have A PLAN. Stick to it.....

WW just called..she's got a car problem and needs me to come take care of it. (Top won't go up). I wonder what OM would do? Humm....

A real question....she has been reading the copy of HNHN that I have laying around. She used it last night to tell me that she has decided her primary EN is, drum roll....CONVERSATION. She was using the book to point out to me that this EN can be met outside of M, etc. I know, fog talk.

But, the real question...should I tell her that I have an appt with SH Monday? I'm torn on this one..she knew about my previous 2 C's, and she chose not to participate. Is it best to put the Plan into place w/o her knowledge of S/H?

Georgia

Sure, tell her about the Steve appt. Steve would probably prefer to talk to you both. My FWH initially didn't participate and he told me what to tell him to get him to at least speak with Steve. Steve's two sessions with my FWH proved to be critical in my situation. He is a PURE GENIUS!!!

<small>[ November 19, 2004, 12:16 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

<small>[ November 19, 2004, 01:33 PM: Message edited by: Georgia Guy ]</small>