Thanks, Mimi....

You (and others)got me to the right starting point.

Thanks for steering me well.

Georgia

very cool GG!!

We continue to lend our support, and prayers. Aa much support as we can over a fiber optics line - but I hope you can feel the care, and concern. It's real.

SS

<small>[ November 22, 2004, 04:23 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

GG,
Sounds like you're getting excellent advice. Did you speak to SH re exposure at church? I know you were very hesitant to "go there." Please know that I, as well as many others I'm sure, are praying for your entire family.

You know GG....

I'm convinced that although my husband showed remorse and immediately went NC right after d-day; my marriage might not have made it through recovery without SH's coaching.

I learned how to be a safe, non-LBing person for my husband to recover with. I would have driven both of us crazy. To this day we still use the questionnaires, and rules for a safe marriage.

I'm so pleased for you. You sound more peaceful already!

Thank you all for the kind words of encouragement. Yes, I do think that talking to Steve has helped me start down the right path.

However, I must be careful not to allow myself to be lulled into a false sense of security. Tonight has been really tough.. no LB'ing, it's just that I'm lonely while keeping up a happy face.

TNbelle - Steve didn't bring up exposure at church and neither did I. He only asked about school exposure (her place of employment), but he said the time is not right for that yet.

I did bring up to her tonight how much "different" Steve is than the former IC that I'd seen, how Steve is so intuitive and right to the point, etc. Made him sound even better than he is. I kept talking about how he was going to help me with my need to change "no matter where our relationship goes". Seem to catch her attention (Steve's suggestion). Also, I said, "Oh, by the way, he said he'd like to talk with you if possible to help him understand my issues better". I didn't ask for a yes or no, just planted the seed. We'll water and harvest it later. She asked about the cost, I just told her I didn't want to talk about it...thought it worth the money if it would help me. She didn't ask any more.

As far as the status of what has happened. I guess it is obvious to all by now that his ruse of "leaving her" was just a manipulative ploy to play on her emotions, which I knew all along.

Also, she has decided not to leave me this week afterall. She was going to her brothers house, but her parents will be there for Thanksgiving and she doesn't want to see her father right now. He apparently gave her a pretty good wringing out over the phone Saturday night. So...she's stuck with just me for the time being.

Thanks again to all. I'll update more as there is more to update.

Georgia

<small>[ November 22, 2004, 10:18 PM: Message edited by: Georgia Guy ]</small>

Good Morning to all -

Last night was the roughest night I've had yet. When WW walked out of the bedroom and told me good night, the pain was almost unbearable.

Using some of SH's philosophy, I said "you sleeping in another room is causing me a lot of pain". She said that because I had been so disrespectful as to tell her parents, that she can't stand to sleep with me right now. I didn't LB, didn't argue, just listened.

Depression looms large today. I'm back at work and going to try to throw myself into work and forget about it all for a while.

Georgia

GG,

As you already know, one of the big WS ploys is blame shifting....she is going to try her best to make this about you. Your failure. Your problem. It's just another effort to manipulate you so she can justify getting her drug. Understanding this doesn't take away the pain...but at least on an intellectual level it helps to make some sense of things. Is she still in contact with this guy?

Thanks, star*fish..I needed to hear a familiar voice.

Yea, I know what she's doing and how she's blame shifting. Of course, she doesn't see that.

She went on a long tirade Sunday night and said she knows that she is wrong, she is having an affair, she has violated our marital vows, etc. But...then went on to justify her actions.

While I'm rambling...on Sunday morning she called the #1 IC that I saw several months ago. She told him she was concerned about me and my well being, etc. I still don't understand why she called him, I may never figure that one out. However, after he and I talked a bit, he said it sounded like it was time for WW to decide who she wanted as she couldn't have it both ways. I asked if he would talk to her, and he said sure. They talked about 20 minutes, I left the room. Later that night, she referred (2x) to Dr. X as an 'idiot' and a 'jerk'. (I think he may have told her something she didn't want to hear). I told SH about this episode.

Now, to your question. I ASSUME she is still in contact with OM. She hasn't mentioned him since Saturday night, when I picked up the phone and they were talking. There is no reason to believe they are not in contact, especially as she is now sleeping in another room.

Georgia

GG, I understand your feeling of depression, of a dark and heavy load weighting you down. You are right that activity at work will help to relieve some of that feeling, but it will be there nonetheless. But I also don't think it's really depression, per se, as much as it is a combination of two other factors.

One is that you are probably feeling tired of the constant "watching what you say and do and not giving voice to your feelings of anger and outrage." The second is fear/uncertainty of the future. You are trying to do what others are saying to you because you "hope they know what they are talking about." BUT, you don't (and can't) see the future so the uncertainness of whether or not what you are doing will result in the future you are hoping for remains. (Now would be a good time to read Luke 8: 22-25. "Let's go over to the other side of the lake.") You can't see the "far shore" right now, but someone is in the "boat" with you. Read and think about that brief passage of Scripture, perhaps even read those 4 verses at the start of each day.

None of us can see tomorrow. All that we can see is TODAY. That IS the big lesson that God gives us when HE tells us that the future belongs to Him and that we have "enough" troubles to deal with for TODAY.

So, one thing that you may well find to be extremely helpful during this time when you are feeling so "beaten down and uncertain" is to set aside some time each day (each TODAY) to read some relevant parts of your Scripture. It is important that as YOU do the things that are within your control, that you make sure that they are in concert with God's will.

Trust is hard at this time. You are "trusting" others, but I'm also betting that you don't "trust" yourself or your wife completely because you CAN'T see the "finished product" that will be in the future as a result of what you do TODAY. It is important that you "refresh" your mind with God's promises. God IS faithful and trustworthy. HE has not only told you what and how you should be His "stand-in" in your marriage as the spiritual head of your marriage, He also provides ALL the resources you need to do what is needed and to uphold you in His strength and love.

Now, is the time to really spend some quality time with you and God, alone. Now is the time to "discover" the resources that have, for many of us, been languishing in a book seldom opened or read regularly. GG, this time of uncertainty is painful and stressful. "God renews my spirit, he lifts me up on wings of eagles, he restoreth my soul" is the well-spring of cool and refreshing promise that I hope you will avail yourself of from your Father's hand.

No, we can't pick up the phone and put in a call to Abba, but we can talk with Him and it's free. Christ already paid in advance for all your "counseling" with God and stands ready to give you that counsel. He has already given you the great Counselor to be with you every day. Not to direct you and force you, but to guide you when you seek an "audience" with God. Think of Him like the great "cell phone" with unlimited calling and no "dead zones" that you carry around with you every day. All you have to do is reach down, use the cell phone, and "place the call."

No matter the distance, no matter how dark the valley or the hole seems, no matter how long the call lasts....you have an unlimited calling area and the total bill has been paid in advance. He will even call you, but He won't force you to answer. He will wait patiently on you.

GG, God REALLY DID mean what He said. Believe it and trust God right now. His lifeline is unbreakable. There are times when all you seem capable of doing is to hold onto that lifeline. But you will find Him faithful. You will find Him capable. You will find Him to KNOW the future and to be a trustworthy guide. He is the omnipotent arm that you can hold onto, that will hold you fast, even on the days when you are dangling over the bottomless pit. He will hold you fast until you are able to begin to help in getting you onto solid ground again.

Some days you just "hold on" and let Him pull you along and some days you gather your strength to "go on" from Him. One thing you will certainly learn from all of this mess is just how limited are our own resources and how incredible it is that God provides His unlimited strength to us and for us. He does NOT abandon us and because of Christ, He KNOWS exactly what you are feeling and what you need. And you will begin to KNOW God, not merely acknowledge His existance.

The days may seem long right now. But you WILL be able to look back at this time and see it for what it really was....a brief period of time in the length of your marriage and in eternity with Christ.

God bless and uphold you in His strength.

Good Morning, FH...

More reason that you're the clergy of the MB boards.

What you are saying is indeed true. I continue to be forced to come face to face with how much of my faith is real, verses what I was able to talk about when all was well ("church talk").
More than once recently (including this morning), I have had to pray to God that it now just He and I, and my relationship will be seen for what it really is. And that is the ONLY relationship that I currently have in which I can find comfort. Perhaps, if there can ever for a reason for the current insanity, this is the reason. It was when the Israelites had all comfort that they strayed the furthest from God, and it was when their back was to the wall that they turned to God because they had exhausted all possible other options.

Having become a Christian later in life (just before M, at age 20), I have never thought of myself as a "cultural Christian" and have never really "played church". I've led Bible studies in juvenile detention facilites as a Prison Fellowship volunteer, and been able to relate to the bad boys because I've been a bad boy.

But...now the rubber meets the road. Did I really mean all those things I said? Has my comfort been in God, or in the relationship that has so quickly dissipated? Do I really believe all that stuff that I've been able to pass along to my kids?

Self reflection is forced...not desired.

FH - I'm not applying for your job as MB clergy, but I do, indeed, understand where you're coming from.

Georgia

Brief update -

#2 Son just called to check on Dad and see how things went last night.

What a timely call...

Everyone should be so fortunate as to have the kids that I've got. I realize that I am indeed blessed far beyond what I deserve.

Georgia

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Having become a Christian later in life (just before M, at age 20), I have never thought of myself as a "cultural Christian" and have never really "played church". I've led Bible studies in juvenile detention facilites as a Prison Fellowship volunteer, and been able to relate to the bad boys because I've been a bad boy.

But...now the rubber meets the road. Did I really mean all those things I said? Has my comfort been in God, or in the relationship that has so quickly dissipated? Do I really believe all that stuff that I've been able to pass along to my kids? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ya, well...join the "later" club. I didn't accept Christ until I was almost 24. I was an agnostic when I met my wife and when we became engaged. She was the "committed Christian" and I am convinced that God called me because HE knew what was waiting in our future and *I* would be needed for my wife at that time.

Leading Bible studies, serving in positions in the church, etc.... been there, done that, know what you are talking about.

The FIRE. The CRUCIBLE. The difference between dross and refined precious metal. The INFIDELITY. The loss of all the "appearance." The "rubber" does hit the road. Strip away all of it and all that is left is God, or self. Only ONE can be on the throne and "in charge" of our lives. Only one can drive the car at a time. Two horses pulling in one direction can haul heavy loads, but two horses pulling in opposite directions is a sad comedy of how most of us go through life.

"Head knowledge" versus "Heart knowledge." Love the Lord thy God with all thy mind and all thy heart and all thy soul. HE is LORD. The throne is His and we ARE His servants, as well as His loved children. And we are a stubborn lot most of the time, even prodigal at times.

He is a patient, loving Father. Thank God.

God bless.

GG,
I guess that you found your counseling with SH to be an interesting experience, but then I suspected that you would. Reading between the lines, I also get the impression that you found him to be far more pragmatic then you thought he would be. That is, his focus is basically on results, not on methodology.

And I think this is where a lot of folks that post on this board miss out. People tend to think that because his books espouse a certain philosophy and lay out certain guidelines in general term, that these guidelines are written in stone. As if there is no flexibility as to interpretation or the actions required given each specific case on which he consults. And that is just crazy!

Take Plan A for example. We read posts all the time from well meaning contributors advising a BS to continue to Plan A no matter what the situation is; for at least 6 months if you’re a man! As if nothing less represents an honest effort. Or that some one continue to Plan A until they get it perfect! As if each of us wasn’t influenced in our efforts by our individual personalities.

SH on the other hand would never give this kind off hand advice! I always felt that what this man was about was defining terms so that all involved would understand the problem and then coming up with practical solutions to solve the problem. In fact I always felt that Plan A was never anything more then a set up for Plan B and that it is Plan B that plays the major winning role in actually braking up the affair for good.

But you know, in my opinion, (and I have always said this) the real genius in the MB method isn’t in the strategies used to used to end the affair. There are many methods that can be used to end the affair and if one doesn’t work all it means is that another should be tried. The genius is in the MB plan is in the recommended plan for reconciliation and implementation of the policy of joint agreement. This provides just a brilliant blue print on how to make a marriage work. That’s why it’s always so sad to me when I read posts from people who do so well in breaking up the affair and then fall short trying to execute the most important element of the process, the reconciliation and the rebuilding of the marriage.

GG, sorry if I got off on a tangent. So really the major difference in what he advices you to do is in the way he wants you to communicate your values? Make it understood that this is persona and painful to you rather then you profiling the image of a man making demands of righteousness from your imaginary pulpit so to speak, to change your delivery if you will? Yet, he hasn’t asked you to back off on your principles has he? He hasn’t asked you be accepting of your WW’s attitudes and inappropriate activity, has he?

It sounds like he just wants you to work on being viewed from a more human perspective and failing the success of that very simple strategy, he is going to advise you to implement Plan B. Is this essentially correct?

Very interesting but not unexpected. He is a very smart man. Please listen to him.
Coach

Georgia,

My heart continues to go out to you. I recall those really dark days even when the sun was shining. Given the length of our relationships, our spouses are so much a part of us.

I hope my experience can offer you the comfort of knowing that MIRACLES CAN HAPPEN. Recovery of my M seemed impossible. I had more than one D-Day, more than one false recovery. My H moved in with the OW, in the ghetto. I was moving out of the dream house we built together and on and on. I trusted in the LORD and kept my faith. I believed that HE would not forsake me. Church members, family and friends told me to give up and move on. I found comfort in Psalms such as Psalms 46: "God is our refuge and strength, an ever-present help in time of trouble. Therefore, we will not fear... I'm no MB clergy like FOREVER by no means but I here to tell you how MY FAITH held me together.... I believed that my H was overtaken by evil forces and I had to put wage a battle against the DEVIL HIMSELF.

Look at my life today. My H and I are happier than ever. Yes, we were happy when we first met and were falling in love. However, we don't have the wisdom that we have now. I am stronger in my faith. I am a much stronger person. I have gotten to the other side.

I want you to know, too, that my husband really is back to being himself. It really can happen when they come out of the fog. Unfortunately, though, I had to go through the fire to get to the other side. I had to build up the strength to go through this arduous process. I've envisioned it like those hoops of fire that animals jump through in the circus. To me, it was worth it because I kept believing
that GOD BROUGHT US TOGETHER. I almost began to feel like it was a test of my faith to keep going. So hang in there, Georgia.

In terms of your WW, it seems that she is continuing to try to push you to her way of thinking. I didn't think she was going anywhere. She remains desperate to get her way. The walls are caving in on her. She's finding out the OM is certainly not going to help her. It continues to be almost comical that she is looking to you for support in helping her to be with him because you are the one that has always come to her rescue in times of need. She wants something special that is offering. Steve is right about needing to understand more about what this OM is providing. It is not SIMPLY CONVERSATION.

Take Care.

Coach –

Yes, I quickly noticed that maybe I had been thinking of the MB “principles” too much as “plans”. By that I mean that each Plan A / B is custom to the situation, guided by the PRINCIPLES of MB. I think that some of the guidance Steve gave (mildly) modifies what I was doing based on some of the excellent advice received here. In other words, the principle remains the same...but the plan is not “one size fits all”. Being a guy of “analytical thinking”, I am always wanting a step 1, step 2...etc guidance. Obviously, I have to continue this retraining of my brain to work differently.

I was surprised that so quickly Steve asked if I was ready for Plan B. I was, really, caught a bit off guard. However, I told him that I am prepared to do whatever he thinks best for the situation, and if that is Plan B, I am ready for Plan B. After our discussion, he doesn’t want to pull that trigger yet, but I get the impression that it’s not going to be 6 months. I avoided my propensity to start asking Plan B questions during this call (such as when? how?). There will be time for the conversation if / when we get there.

I, too, see little encouragement that if I will just do an excellent Plan A, that WW will see just how great I am (tongue in cheek) and come to her senses while running to me with open arms. It is, as you say, almost a “set-up” for Plan B. (This is my words, not Steve’s). In fact, when I saw the first IC, and he asked me what I wanted to do, I told him I wanted to learn to adequately meet my W’s needs. Then he responded, somewhat rhetorically, “so then she’ll just come running back to you, right?.” I see now that there was wisdom in his comment, but he didn’t have a Plan B philosophy to “make the sale”. His only plan B was to try to show WW the error of her ways, which we here all know is futile.

Coach, you’re not on a tangent at all. This is the heart of what we’re talking about. Yes, you are exactly right in the philosophical shift that I have to put into place. The premise of all “requests” (not demands) is to note how badly it hurts me when you call OM from our home, when you talk to me about OM, etc.

The groundwork being laid in this is one in which, at the “right” time, I can say...”I am in such unbearable pain that I cannot continue to be reminded daily of this. For my own good, I am going to need to have a time of separation to allow me to removed myself from that pain”. And then implementing with nothing but the sound of crickets in the background. No LB’s, no crying, no begging...just “I must do this because of the pain I am experiencing”. The focus is to shifted from WW’s actions to my pain. Period. (When I watch my W, in her nightgown, walk out of our bedroom and close the door behind her, it is not too hard to talk about the pain).

Thanks for your insight...obviously you know the drill well. I appreciate what you are saying.

Georgia

Good Morning, Mimi –

Thanks for much for those kind words.

I know, because of people like you and others who have so openly shared their stories, that there is indeed real hope for a happy ending. I, too, have had several well-intentioned comments that there are other women out there. In all honesty, those thoughts have toyed with my mind. However, there is only ONE woman in the whole world with whom I have 30 years of shared memories.

I too, have been reading the Psalms. It means much to me that you have referenced that Psalm in particular. Also, I Corinthians 13 (Greatest of these is love...) is of great encouragement as that is the verses read at our wedding, and imprinted on the cover of both of our Bibles.

What I am about to tell you (and the world) I have really considered whether or not I should say. But, it is too bizarre, and I’ll let you (and all others) make of it what they wish. I promise, I am not making this up.

Sunday afternoon, after the family get-together will all 6 of us for intense conversation, we all adjourned downstairs for some lighter moments. One of the DIL’s started a light-hearted conversation about what WW & I would be called by the grandkids (when they come). I think she was just trying to get the mood a little less tense.

Various names were suggested for me, with the family favorite seeming to be “Poopoo”. Not what I really want to be called, but it was good for a laugh. The name of Moomoo was suggested for WW, but she said that sounded like a milk cow.

So, (drum roll, please) WW says, with no input from anyone...”I want to be called Mimi”.

There, I said it. I will make no speculations; just tell you that it is fact and that it did happen.

Georgia.

I couldn't stop laughing when I read your post! My colleague said to me "WHAT IS SO FUNNY?"

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

BELIEVE IN MIRACLES!!!!

<small>[ November 23, 2004, 11:52 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

OH NO!!!

He's been MIMIIZED!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Well....my first testimony to the success of the Harley principles.

For the last 3 days, things have been really cold between us. Today when I got home, I could tell she was ready to talk. So, we talked. She wanted to hear about the session with SH, so I told her that he said that I needed to really be careful not to be controlling. You'd have thought she won the lottery. AT LAST, she says, A COUNSELOR WHO KNOWS WHAT HE'S DOING!!! I went on to tell her that the reason I had made the request that she not call OM from our home is because it hurts me so much, and I was trying to find ways to avoid the pain. She seemed to understand...told me that her R with OM was to help her control her pain.

We had some really good, non-LB'ing discussion. We were able to talk about not only R, but her day at school, her talks with the boys, got into some issues that were on her mind from when they were still kids....just a lot of stuff. It was wonderful to talk to her again.

However, I kinda had to sit through the part about OM & WW know God brought us together, there's nothing wrong with what we're doing, etc.

But, I made it through, no LB'ing, related to WW that my "requests" are because of my pain...a lot of ground covered. I tried to wedge in that SH wants to talk to WW also to help him understand my issues better. Didn't fly..."I don't want to talk to him". I didn't press the issue, will try again later.

I got to the part about how I know that we could have a better M than ever, one with no guilt and no regrets. She rolled her eyes in her head. (okay, I lost that one..didn't pursue it any further).

You know what would be scarey? What if, through my discourse with SH, I really did change? And, in that change, I was able to show WW that marriage to me could be great. I might never even get to do Plan B!!!

Oh well, I know it's wishful thinking, but it sure was nice to talk to W for a few minutes instead of WW. Every once in a while, the wonder of life shines through. She's showering, we're going to go get dinner.

Georgia