GG,
Still here and folllowing your "saga." Sometimes this stuff is almost unbelieveable...you know?? It sounds like you are doing all the right things. Stay strong.

Thanks, TNbelle -

Hadn't heard from you in a while, thanks for your comments. Nice to hear from friends, especially right now.

Seems like we're going to hit the hottest part of Plan B right at Christmas. This is proving quite difficult on the whole family, as you can imagine.

Again, thanks for your encouraging words.

Georgia

Her comments are her justification so she doesn't have to feel SOOooo guilty. If she convinces herself she had an unhappy M, then her cheating won't seem so wrong. If she convinces herself you are controlling, then this latest development, and the kids turning against her can't be HER fault.

She KNOWS deep in her heart what she is doing is wrong, but love is a drug, and what she is feeling is Sooo powerful, it has a hold on her. The chemicals are similar to addiction. And if OM is feeling the same way, he is struggling and saying and doing ANYTHING to keep it going too.

When I gave FWH my Plan B letter he accused me of controlling him too. I explained I had no control over whether H CHOSE to do these things or not, and that the only thing I HAD control over was how I was going to deal with the outcome of HIS choice. If anything, HE was controlling the situation up till now, but I was not going to be controlled any longer. That up till now I wanted my life to be a certain way and HE had changed that. I was going to move on with him or without him, the choice was up to him, but I was not going to deal with things the way they were right now. I explained I had NO control over whether he continued contact with OW, but I could control whether I sat by any longer. If there was continued contact, I would remove myself so I wouldn't feel hurt any onger, had the A in my face, and could protect myself.

<small>[ December 20, 2004, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: StillHereMakingIt ]</small>

SHMI -

I've come to pretty much understand the reason for many of her comments, and they almost all have to do with her trying to mitigate her own guilt. I think it very unfortunate for her that she is now using these same comments to alleniate the rest of the family, many of whom might not attribute this to "fog" so readily should we ever get to that point.

Yes, I've heard a bit about my letter being controlling. Maybe in a way it is, it is my way of saying that I will not allow the marriage to continue "out of control" as it had been.

I went back last night and re-read my letter. Nothing there that I really wish to change. WW is going to have to decide if she can CONTROL herself, if not then there is nothing else to talk about. She keeps saying she wants to talk to me... but I'm not open to negotiation.

Thanks, SHMI, for your comments.

Georgia

<small>[ December 20, 2004, 10:35 AM: Message edited by: Georgia Guy ]</small>

Georgia,

She's also being controlling. Her behavior, suicide threat, etc are very controlling. She's hoping that her actions will cause YOU to change so that she doesn't have to feel her own pain.

How difficult this must be for your children and DILs. She will be needing to repair many relationships before this is over by the sound of it. Glad you're hanging tough, this time of year is so difficult on all who are in your circumstance. BLessings, CSue

Thanks, CSue -

Yes, that is part of the paradox of this whole thing. WW doesn't see anything she does as controlling, actually doesn't see anything she does as wrong in any way.

I am distraught to find out some of the things she is saying about me now. I know this goes with the territory, but it still hurts. I admited on this thread that one night I cursed her, first time I had ever done that in 28 years. Apologized to her the next day.

However, now I hear she's telling folks that I have gotten in the habit of cussin' her out all the time, it had become a way of life for me and she couldn't stand it any more.....argh....

Yes, there is going to be many, many relationships that will need much work if they can ever be restored. Right now, I would say that the chance of restoration of our marriage (based on current events) is somewhere down in the single digits (percentage wise).

Georgia

Oh, Georgia:

My heart was beating fast as I was reading through all the drama that you were going through over the past few days.

I always say that this is so "awful" for us. It is really a tragedy and affects so many lives, our sons, your DILs.

It's my guess that your WW freaked out when you left for the weekend. Oh, the CAKEEATER! She wants to do her thing while you sit at home waiting for her! Being OCD, like your WW, I understand that part of the domestic stuff is probably her trying to deal with her agony and pain. Remember, I had the cleanest house in the world during MY PLAN B. I can just envision her stomping around the house cleaning.

The GOOD NEWS is she is beginning to experience pain. She wants you to relieve her of the pain. Out of your love for her you want to rescue her. However, remember she has to really hit her bottom, just like an alcoholic, before she can really turn around. Hopefully, she will not have to get on the ROAD TO VANCOUVER.

I wouldn't even make it so drastic as having her to call STEVE HARLEY. Make it simple. You need a NO CONTACT LETTER, stating that she loves you and will not contact him ever again in her lifetime, get rid of her means of communication with him, etc., all of your life an open book, etc. Maybe she needs a short note reiterating the terms of PLAN B.

I remember doing this at some point. My terms were simple enough for my FWH to remember and he was able to repeat them back to me when we were leading towards reconciliation.


Your photography jaunt sounded wonderful, communing with GOD and nature.

Stay prayerful!!!!

Mimi -

How nice to hear from you, assumed you were gone today.

Yes, indeed it has been an eventful weekend. Saturday was wonderful. I know you can relate because we have discussed that you and I need a lot less personal interaction than our WS's. I loved being in that forest, watching wild deer, woodpeckers, etc. One of the best times I've had for personal prayer in a long time. Lots of peace and solitude.

To the point. It is obvious that WW is now careening at full speed out of control. Pain has set in, and it was her absence at #1S's birthday that has done it. She would be perfectly happy to see me go as long as she could replace me with OM, and continue with S's like nothing ever happened. Unfortunately for her, we're a package deal. She has made the VERY SERIOUS mistake of insulting #1DIL. That alone would be major problems for her, #1S will confront in moment whereas I will procrastinate to avoid conflict. So, she's now got major, major problems with #1S. He can forgive as good as anyone, but only after he perceives repentance. It ain't there right now. She has basically lost her #1S right now due to this thing with OM.

Georgia

and...hoping we chat for just a moment before we both disappear....some more food for thought:

You say: "I wouldn't even make it so drastic as having her to call STEVE HARLEY. Make it simple. You need a NO CONTACT LETTER, stating that she loves you and will not contact him ever again in her lifetime, get rid of her means of communication with him, etc., all of your life an open book, etc. Maybe she needs a short note reiterating the terms of PLAN B."

Allow me a friendly debate on this point a moment, please. If she could give me such a letter and state THAT SHE LOVES ME, that would be one thing, but I'm hearing that she's willing to surrender and have a miserable life with me. Told both boys she doesn't mind losing me, etc. Just wants them back. I don't see any movement toward any the terms of Plan B. Do you disagree?

Hence, I think it necessary to put her in touch with Steve to see if he can start sorting this all out with her, otherwise, I don't know what to do with an NC letter if I got one. All I would have is an angry, resentful wife - which isn't really what I want right now.

Comments?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> but I'm hearing that she's willing to surrender and have a miserable life with me. Told both boys she doesn't mind losing me, etc. Just wants them back.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Personally, this would not work for me. I am no one's warden ... with the possible exception of my teen under age 18.

Pep

IMHO, I wouldn't make the stakes too high. Talking to Steve Harley would be a huge step for her at this point.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She would be perfectly happy to see me go as long as she could replace me with OM, and continue with S's like nothing ever happened. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course, she is feeling this way. THIS IS FOG TALK! Even after reconciliation, they are not out of the fog until months of withdrawal. When my FWH came home, he talked about not being "in love" with me. He came home only because it was "the right thing to do". I told him that that was enough because I knew that it was only fog talk. I knew that he would "fall in love" with me again, which he has, ONCE THE FOG IS LIFTED. That may take months, particularly considering that your WW is ADDICTED and this is an EA or LOVE AFFAIR.

In my understanding of MB, the conditions are basically an agreement of NO CONTACT FOR LIFE. I don't think talking to Steve Harley should be held as a prerequisite. I know a lot of people here talk about the necessity for counseling. However, I don't believe it's for everybody. That is something that won't work if it is forced. A person has to be motivated to profit from counseling. Personal change can come from other motivations such as loss of a relationship with your children. That's what your WW is facing . That's real and important enough to bring her home. THEN COMES WITHDRAWAL, THEN LIFTING OF THE FOG... You see it's a process.... that has to go in steps.....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If she could give me such a letter and state THAT SHE LOVES ME, that would be one thing, but I'm hearing that </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes she does need to say this as well in the letter. H was able to state that he loved me but not "in love" with me.

What I'm saying is the important first step is for her to agree to NO CONTACT FOR LIFE. That is a huge step in itself for her. Agreeing to NO CONTACT is not just SURRENDER. If she does that, she will be feeling like she has given up her life line. For an addicted WS, NO CONTACT is a major loss. I'm being real with you. That is the reality of this for us. Tragic and painful, I know.

<small>[ December 20, 2004, 03:20 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

You're giving me a lot to think about, Mimi..

Tossing thoughts about....

Seems like one of the common themes I've heard on this board is BS's allowing to a cessation of Plan B way too soon, thereby accomplishing nothing. Re: Gibby's warning to me awhile back.

Also, in your case (sorry if this is painful), wasn't it only after the bubble of the OW was burst that FWH was able to see what he had in you? WW isn't there yet, despises me right now. But yet you seem to be saying that's okay, just get the NC letter?

I don't know Mimi....I'm feeling really uncomfortable about this. I've come this far, I don't want to blow it right here and now.

Plus....guilt...guilt...guilt....I am getting to where I like a little peace in my life and having to face a contentious woman right now doesn't appeal to me. (There's a Proverb there somewhere). Maybe I'm being selfish, but it would be nice if she WANTED to come back.

Forgive the random thoughts...just trying to process quickly as I know time draws nigh for the day.

Georgia

I posted again before you. I don't think she's ready to do the NO CONTACT letter. I'm not anticipating that it will be soon.

I was questioning encouraging her to talk to Steve Harley. I was suggesting reiterating to her the need for the NO CONTACT LETTER before you resume contact with her.

I think that you are too accessible to her. I think you should become as DARK as possible. You should not be accessible to her suicide ploys. You see what I mean? Change the cell phone number. Cut off the lines of communication.

Let her really feel the pain. I'm leaving. Will check back in a couple of hours.

<small>[ December 20, 2004, 03:26 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

And....

"Yes she does need to say this as well in the letter. H was able to state that he loved me but not "in love" with me."

WW is telling everyone that will listen that she never loved me, knew when she walked down the aisle that she didn't love me, worse mistake of her life, etc. Has told the boys this, my parents, her parents, best friends, etc.

I don't know how she can give me such a letter while continuing to say such things.

Perhaps another SH session is in order here.

FOG TALK!!! FOG TALK!!!!

You see, she remains too accessible to you. Why do you know what she is saying?? She has gotten to you and is trying to manipulate you.

TURN OUT THE LIGHTS, GEORGIA!!! DARK! DARK! DARK!

Put a lock on the door.

Yes, and not a bad idea for you to talk to Steve.

Okay, I'm assuming you're gone. So some more thoughts for you to toss around.

The cell # she has is my work cell. I can't easily just change that, tons of business contacts. However, I don't answer it when it's her and I delete any messages she leaves. The suicide thing came via #2DIL while she was on the phone with #2S.

I now have my own personal cell which she doesn't know about. Only closest family / friends have the number.

(I just saw your 4:29 PM post).

Okay, here is what I am getting out of our discussion. Even I don't clearly know what I am asking her to do. This is not good. This is the weakness of my Plan B.

"I was suggesting reiterating to her the need for the NO CONTACT LETTER before you resume contact with her." Okay, let's say I get the NC LETTER, then what? I resume contact with her, but what does that mean?

This is the simple terms of my PLAN B LETTER:

"...a life long commitment to never again contact OM and an open book policy with emails, cell phones, etc."

So...my own words say that if she will commit to this statement, then we are ready to resume communication.

This stinks...I've not done a good job here and I've not given her a clear path back home. However, I DO NOT think she is ready for that, but I do need to clarify this somehow.

Okay, I've managed to confuse myself. Help!!

I'll try to check in later. I'm still having problems at home with my wireless server. WW's computer is working fine, but my server (which is at her computer)isn't. This is difficult to go troubleshoot with her at home.

Thanks for the discussion. Off to the gym.

Georgia

Georgia,

Reason, I said that a coaching session with SH is a good idea is for your benefit. Plan B success is dependent on her motives for "giving in" to your demands (at least she's seeing NC as a demand).

She doesn't appear to be interested in healing her marriage, just lessening her own pain.

She may very well not be interested in coaching or talking with SH as a condition for ending Plan B. She would rather negotiate this on her own with you. Personally I don't think this is safe for you.

In my situation, coaching with SH was a condition I required in order to trust my husband enough to repair our marriage. I didn't think I had the ability to judge this for myself. My faith and trust was temporarily in SH, who was acting on behalf of my best interests.

Your wife is a loose cannon by the sound of it. You're no more safer emotionally than you were on d-day.

I would rather see you stay safer in Plan B, than risking taking on your fog-bound wife in her current state.

She's upped the stakes on the situation by taking on her DIL. She really needs to hit rock bottom without thought that anyone might rescue her from the consequences of her poor choices.

I'm starting to think she needs some IC sessions before she can begin to work on your marriage.

<small>[ December 20, 2004, 03:57 PM: Message edited by: CSue ]</small>

I agree with CSue. Sure, you have not clearly spelled out the path back, but a session with SH should give her some ideas. You will know if she is READY for a commitment if she agrees to talk with SH...it's not happening yet.

As far as the communicaiton with S and DIL's. You may want to ask them not to tell you ANYTHING about Mom right now...that if it is important, she will let me know, anything else is hurtful.
And suggest to them they don't have to hear it...can lay down that boundary if they'd like.

The number one rule about coparenting after a D is do NOT talk badly about the S with the kids. That means you too. I'm especially certain this holds true in a Plan B. This going back and forth between the kids still smacks of contact...

Hey Georgia Guy. I am just outside of Vancouver, Canada. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Can I check something out for you?