Overall, I really loved Forever's post. However, there's a part that I question.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The ending of the affair and the recovery of your marriage will be a result of her decision to obey God first. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How can we know this? I believe that God works in mysterious ways as I have indicated to you, Georgia, in other posts. I don't believe that we can apply our logic to God. I believe that we have to TRUST in HIM and HAVE FAITH. I believe that it is important for you to do, Georgia. However, your WW may need to come home BEFORE SHE IS RIGHT WITH GOD. That might be PART OF GOD'S PLAN. This is hard for me to put into words. What I am saying is that I did sit back and LET GO AND LET GOD. However, HIS WORK IN MY LIFE HAS NOT FOLLOWED A LOGICAL PLAN THAT I COULD HAVE COMPREHENDED. A lot of time when I tried to get into the middle of it, I messed things up.

Hang on in here with me. For example, I think the FALSE RECOVERIES were for a reason. I even think the A was for a reason. Maybe I needed this to shake me up, to change my life....

Also in another point of view,I do believe that my H was being influenced by EVIL FORCES and GOD brought him out of that. However, I am not sure that my FWH is right with GOD yet. But who am I to question his relationship with GOD. That is between him and GOD. I just have to stay righteous and have my own TRUST, FAITH AND BELIEF.

Just some thoughts of mine.

I think FH's post is great, I hope that isn't misunderstood.

My point is / was that the OP relationship can so cloud one's judgement that the need for repentance can't be seen. Right now, WW sees me and the rest of the family as out of God's will because we're not all actively proselytizing (sp?) OM. She thinks we will discover the error of our ways some day.

Onto your subject. I actively debate that point with myself a lot. There is a fine distinction between the ideas that:

1. All that happens is part of God's plan.
2. God can use all that happens to the ultimate good.

To illustrate: If we can all choose to sin (we agree on that, right?), then does that mean that our choice to sin is within God's will? I don't think so (IMO). But, can God use that sin for good? I do think so. Ex.: The sin of an A can ultimately be used for good, but it wasn't part of God's will that WS chose this path. Do we agree on that?

I think there is no doubt WW is being influenced by evil forces. She see herself as in God's will and all the rest of the family as wrong. The Sunday afternoon in the bonus room with all 6 of us about a month ago, we couldn't all believe what was coming out of Mom's mouth. (i.e. - I know what the Bible says, but that doesn't apply to me), etc. She did everything but spin her head around and puke split pea soup. Okay, I know this is serious, but the point is that the words I heard weren't representative of the woman I know and love.

Can God use this for good in my life as well as her's? Yes. Does this mean her actions of part of God's will? No (again, IMO).

I do believe the story of the house being cleaned of evil spirits, but nothing replacing them, has bearing here. Those spirits (the OM) must be gone, then the vacancy properly filled. I don't believe there is "room" for God, in WW's life, until that happens. This was the point I was trying to make with FH.

BTW - Sorry I was having such trouble communicating my thoughts last night. I think I was just tired and shouldn't have attempted that conversation.

Georgia

<small>[ December 21, 2004, 12:55 PM: Message edited by: Georgia Guy ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My point is / was that the OP relationship can so cloud one's judgement that the need for repentance can't be seen. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with you. This is THE FOG!


This is deep discussion for a Tuesday afternoon!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The sin of an A can ultimately be used for good, but it wasn't part of God's will that WS chose this path. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not buying that sinful actions are ALWAYS A CONSCIOUS CHOICE. I believe that we will be SINFUL BY NATURE if we YIELD TO TEMPTATION. That's why I think that it is important that we put up safeguards like not crossing boundaries in relationships with the opposite sex, not having secret friendships, etc. So agreed it is not GOD'S WILL THAT WSes CHOOSE THIS PATH. However, given our human, sinful nature, such a path is likely to happen if we do not maintain our safeguards. A strong safeguard is STAYING IN THE WORD OF GOD. However, many a strong man/woman has fallen....especially in the hands of addictions, which like cocaine, include adulterous relationships.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Does this mean her actions of part of God's will? No (again, IMO).
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I believe, in general, that your WW and mine FWH were mainly under the influence of Satan. However, in their process of working their way back home, how will you know when GOD is not working with her? Who are we to understand or explain what GOD is doing in a another person's walk with HIM?

I guess I am saying that the most important thing is to focus on what is going on within our own spiritual life? I'm having a problem with BSes being the judge and getting involved in evaluating GOD's work with another person?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> don't believe there is "room" for God, in WW's life </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't like to hear you saying this. GOD COULD BE WORKING IN HER LIFE RIGHT NOW. How can we know? She may have to reach her very bottom to find Him. She maybe working her way back to Him. She may not let you onto this. THIS IS BETWEEN HER AND GOD.

BTW, my mind stops functioning well around 6:00 PM. My best time is between 11 and 5 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ December 21, 2004, 01:25 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

If you do get the book GG it has some wonderful prayers in it, maybe see if your library has it and if you like it buy it. I can really understand that ww wants to help om because of being muslim THAT DOES NOT MEAN YOU RUIN YOUR MARRIAGE OVER IT. Where is a 2x4? I would love to use it on ww!!!

I guess that is what is meant by fog talk it sure is baffling!

Okay, Mimi...we've got this going, so I'm going to have to dive into this deeper and explore with you a moment.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm not buying that sinful actions are ALWAYS A CONSCIOUS CHOICE. I believe that we will be SINFUL BY NATURE if we YIELD TO TEMPTATION. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Isn't the yielding to temptation always a conscious choice? If it's true (and it is) that with each temptation comes a way of escape, then don't we make a concious choice if we yield? Not to split hairs, but can you give me a specific example of a sin that is not by concious choice?

I hope you understand that I am "bantering" and not arguing. Hard to express this with written words.

And while I'm bantering...okay, I'll concede that God can be working in WW's right now. Strike my comments from the record.

Now, I'm going to again stick my nose where it may not belong (but you gave the opening). This comment about FWH maybe not being right with God yet, and the rhetorical "who am I to question his relationship with God?". I'm going to ignore the rhetorical a minute. I suggest that if you think you FWH still MAY have a spiritual issue there, it would behoove you to take this seriously and "kindly, gently, lovingly" encourage him in this area. I suggest that all of the Plan A'ing you can do will not keep the "cleaning woman" (or her cousin) from showing up at your house again if this issue isn't dealt with properly. You don't have to judge, you just have to use Godly wisdom. Make sense?

Now, if I may, I'd like to turn some thoughts toward AmIenough.

First, thanks for the reference. I've enjoyed the music ministry of Michael and Stormie for years, but not read their books. I'll consider your recommendation.

I took a few minutes to review your situtation. Let me say that I know this is very difficult on you, and I wish I could offer some words of wisdom that could help, but I'm afraid I'm void of thoughts in that area. My only comment would reflect your choice of a moniker. Are you enough? I suggest that the issue isn't with you, but your H. Please don't think of your self in that way. If you do, then each of us here, myself and my friend Mimi all have to ask ourselves that question, because in some way our WS's have treated us as though we "aren't enough". But we know otherwise, and the same is true for you. However, your H obviously has issues that are way beyond anything I would attempt to understand, so I'll not even try.

Let me encourage you in your faith. As we've been talking here as fellow Christians, that is where our strength comes to make it through these difficult times. Stay strong in your faith, you will be a blessing to your kids.

Post anytime here.

Georgia

Georgia:

I'm realizing that this whole issue is part of my personal growth area in all of this. Do you know anything about CODEPENDENCE and the ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS literature. It speaks to the addicted person and their loved ones, LETTING GO AND LETTING GOD. It also talks about how we are POWERLESS over our addictions. I don't think yielding to temptation is a conscious choice if it is caused by an addiction or, in other words, some sort of temporary insanity that takes us out of our right mind.

You remember how I referred to myself as being CONTROLLING? That also comes out of this literature. I am CODEPENDENT according to this viewpoint, having grown up as a child of an alcoholic. I have always tried to FIX things. It can come across as me feeling like I am superior and a know-it-all. I had to do this to cope in growing up, trying to hold my family together even as a child. A part of me tried to make my FWH into the person that I wanted him to be. We talked about this before, didn't we? He felt that he had to live up to my standards.

What I am saying is that I it is important in my personal growth to back off and stop trying to make my FWH who I want him to be, even at a spiritual level. He is not right with God, IN MY EYES. However, I know that I have issues of thinking that I have all the right answers for everybody. This may sometimes come through here.

I have trust and faith and really know that my FWH is now WITH GOD. GOD brought him home. He is led by GOD. However, it does not look the way I MAY WANT IT TO LOOK. I am certain, because he tells me and shows me everyday that he knows what he did was WRONG. Is he continually tempted, YES ? I actively see him guarding himself against this. It's just important that I learn to step back. I want to fix everything into neat, pretty packages. I can do my house that way but not people and relationships. I have to guard against a sense of superiority and an expectation of perfection.

It was so weird last night. I cut my finger and my FWH wanted to tend to it for me. I realized how hard it was for me to let him take care of me. I DID NOT LIKE BEING OUT OF CONTROL OF THE SITUATION. I had to make myself completely vulnerable to him and he loved being my knight in shining armor. I used to think that all of my caretaking was out of love. Some of it was out of my need to maintain control of the situation.

Enough bantering....I know that's what we are doing.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Okay, Mimi. I see your point on the addictions. I concede.

I have had no first hand experience with AA or alcoholic family history. I am quite aware of the issues that many,if not most, families deal with. I'm not going into details as this isn't mine to divulge, but #1 DIL comes from one of the most dysfunctional families that you can image. Yet, she's a strong, mature Chritian woman that is such a blessing to our family. She has come through fire that has purified her. I still don't know why some people, in the same circumstances, take the completely opposite direction. #2 S, in his role as youth minister, is seeing things that cause him to come home and thank us for raising him in a Christian home. His eyes have been opened.

I respect what you are saying about your H and his spiritual growth. As you've rightfully pointed out, I too want to fix everything "right now". This is one of my (many) issues, too. As you noted, we have spoken about my putting WW on a pedestal and expected perfection, the way you 've done with FWH.

I'm glad you understand your husband and his needs. That is me, I understand that. I want to be the knight in shining armor, just hasn't worked out that way.

It is good that you realize that you may come across as superior (we mentioned that also, didn't we). I don't know what "real world" is for both of you, but I can see how this could be threatening to H if you are in fact "above" him in some ways (occupation?) while he's wanting to be the knight. This was an issue with airplane physician (remember her?). FH was a factory manager, she a successful physician. I got the impression that it had never hit her that this was an issue, I don't think she had reached that level of understanding yet.

Okay...I'm not bantering but rambling.

Georgia

Just a couple of more ramblings <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

You are now in the addictive world. Your WW is struggling with an addiction.

In term of my sitch, FWH owned his own business and continues to be a successful businessman, the major breadwinner, well-off. Very attractive to the CLEAN-UP WOMAN, right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I always worked part-time up until the A. I won't fill in details in order to not divulge his confidentiality, in case anyone lurks here.. So it was my SPIRITUAL SUPERIORITY that has threatened him, I think. I have been goody, goody. Does that may sense? Not like the woman on the plane with the factory worker husband...more like your WW in terms of my role in the family......

Okay, thanks for sharing that. Seems like sometimes one partner can be more "intellectual" as well, and that can be threatening. Probably doesn't apply here, I suppose.

Thanks for taking the time for this today, I needed that.

Nothing tonight (this Plan B stuff does get lonesome at times). Tomorrow night dinner with #1S at a Wi Fi Hotspot restaurant to try to figure out why my wireless PDA doesn't work. He's challenged to figure this out now, and I can use his help.

Also, I'm taking time off from work to burn last 3 days before end of year. Normally, WW and I would be reveling in these days we could antique shop and dine out, enjoy each others company.

All right, I'm going to quit this before my mood changes.

EDIT - I'm home now. WW saw me come in, told me that she went upstairs to get my clothes and saw that I had put a lock on the door. Told me to sit them outside if I wanted her to do my laundry. Then said "hasn't this gone on long enough? You know, you had a chance to win my heart back Sunday when I was so upset". No other comments, I didn't respond.

In the sanctity of my room with door closed. I stopped by the library and got a movie that I'm going to watch while eating dinner.

Georgia

<small>[ December 21, 2004, 05:17 PM: Message edited by: Georgia Guy ]</small>

Good Morning to all -

I'm heading off to the gym, then b'fast.

If AmIenough is still here-

I stopped by the library yesterday and got Stormie Omartian's book "Praying God's Will for your Life". I'm going to read some during b'fast this morning. They didn't have the one you recommended.

Thanks -

Georgia

GG - Some interesting questions from both you and Mimi. I will try to make time to respond them.

For now, let me simply address the following quotation wherein I think there may be danger in what you are doing. While I understand your objective of ending her relationship with the OM, it is your method of achieving that objective that I have serious reservations about.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Then said "hasn't this gone on long enough? You know, you had a chance to win my heart back Sunday when I was so upset". No other comments, I didn't respond.

In the sanctity of my room with door closed. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. (1Cor.7:5 NIV)

Who is speaking to your wife about God and His commands and teaching?

YOU are the "head of your household," and if not you, then who?

GG, this treating of your wife as an infidel must stop. Christ does NOT close and lock the door on a believer who has strayed from the "sheep pen" and gotten temporarily lost. Christ leaves the flock and goes off in search of the lost sheep, and once finding it, gently leads it back to the safety of the flock.

Please do not confuse the "church discipline" with you, as part of the "one flesh" relationship with your wife, and how you are to treat your wife.

Christ's pain and anguish over the "lost" did not stop him from reaching out to those who would come to him, did not stop him from dealing with those who had trouble accepting him without "direct proof" or who misunderstood his teaching and needed further clarification.

Yes, GG, I DO understand the pain that you are feeling and the anguish your wife's actions are causing you. So does Christ. If for no other reason than being a "Good Samaritan," will you who are "stronger in the faith" pass by someone who is in dire need and "leave it up to someone else?" Though the "price" may be high, don't you trust God's promise to provide ALL that you will need? I KNOW that sounds perhaps a bit simplistic. But believe me when I tell you that I have struggled many times with myself. "To do what my human emotions are screaming at me, or to simply submit to God, obey His commands, and wait on the Lord and His timing, not my timing?"

Interaction with fellow believers is different from interaction with non-believers. This is part of what I want to respond to in another post, because it has direct bearing upon your revelation of what is are the root of your wife's problem. I have to admit that I am a bit stunned that it took this long to finally get to the root cause of the problem, but now, once knowing what it is, it is time to have the walls come down and to recover your marriage and your (you and your wife) walking as the bride of Christ.

God bless.

FH, You have some great insights. There are a couple of things I take exception to:

1. In this situation, GG is under the guidance of Steve Harley, a believer who has a proven method for recovering marriages from sinful behavior on the part of one or both spouses.

2. In this situation, GG is no longer living with a believer. She is a psuedo-believer, who believes that she can convert a non-believer to Christ by violating Christ's laws. She sees any action on GG's part to "enlighten" her as "control", rebels, and moves herself further from the fold of Christ.

The scriptures are clear; that when one is participating in sinful behavior, they are confronted, by one or more witnesses, which has been done, by GG, and his children. She has not turned from her wicked behavior, instead, turning to manipulation to allow herself to continue in sin, AND have the benefits that righteous living would afford her. Shunning is the prescribed treatment for such a person. For if she is not shunned, she will harm the remaining body of believers, which she persists in trying to access to do.

Hence, GG's locking her out of his life, is exactly what the scriptures say he should do.

I agree wholeheartedly with KAYLA.

We need to continue to follow MB PRINCIPLES here.

It just amazes me how much the WS will try to throw it back at the BS...like it is ALL your fault.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Then said "hasn't this gone on long enough? You know, you had a chance to win my heart back Sunday when I was so upset". No other comments, I didn't respond.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, Sunday was the window of opportunity...it was all going to happen then...or rather, she was desperate enough to promise anything only to convince you it wasn't the best...

Wow, I didn't know I was going to start some controversy here.

FH - I will respond in more detail later. I'm in Circuit City again shopping and just thought I would check updates as I walked by a computer.

Suffice it to say, FH, that I respect your stand, but I firmly disagree in this case. WW still has a free will, and for over a year she's chosen to exercise that will to stray for both God's commands and her H's guidance and warnings. This started with my gentle admonitioning that she was forming an inappropriate relationship that was getting out of control, much to no avail.

Again, more later. But I am secure that I am in the right place right now.

Keep the faith.

Georgia

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> First, yes indeed I do still maintain daily prayer / devotion. And she is very much a part of that everyday. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Excellent!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Perhaps I haven't said too much about it here, but just a little more background. WW also continues a daily devotion (as far as I know right now), and sees her mission as leading OM to Christ. As you may have caught earlier, he is a Muslim. She sees him as "searching", and if it wasn't for her no one would be there to point him to the right way. She has expressed great disappointment that I don't relate more concern for his soul, and that I should feel guilty because I don't have the same burning desire for his eternal security as she does.

Indeed, when we were in Vancouver we went to church together. I had found what seemed a pretty solid church by some web searches, and we all attended together. It was indeed an incredible church, obviously Spirit led. We were approached by a lady who leads a mission to Iranians and she latched onto OM real quickly. He was put off by the whole thing and never went back. (WW was upset that she didn't get to go to church with him alone...I was there too). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Georgia Guy – This is the information that I have been looking for. This is the root cause, it would appear, of your marital difficulty and it lends credence to your wife’s contention that she is NOT in an affair with the OM and is, rather, dealing with a zealousness to “convert” someone and “save his soul.” It sheds a lot of light on why the OM’s wife is “uncomfortable” with her husband’s communications with your wife and why she will not take a more active role in “confronting” her husband and demanding fidelity from him.

This also explains a lot of why there has been such lengthy communications with the OM. Discussing the topic of Jesus Christ and salvation is NOT something that can be done briefly, in most cases. Add to that the possibility that there are two things possibly going on simultaneously, and I’m not surprised at the length of the conversations and the “getting nowhere” result.

If I may be permitted to go out on a limb here, I think that your wife may have a misunderstanding of her “role” in spreading the gospel. First is the issue of “gifts” from God. Not all people are “gifted” to be missionaries or evangelists or any of the other “offices.” Attempting to “fulfill” a role that one might “want” for oneself, without God’s gifting in that area, is putting one’s own “reason” above God’s. It is tantamount to telling God, “I know better than you.” All Christians are commanded to spread the Good News to a “lost world,” but it is fundamentally a process of three things. One, living a life whereby others can see Christ’s love reflected in your life. Two, by being obedient to God’s commands regardless of “personal desire” or “emotions.” Three, standing ready to give a “defense,” or “reason,” for WHY you believe what you believe (Christ as the only way to salvation).

Let me emphasize this point as clearly as I know how. It is the height of hubris and self-centeredness to PRESUME that what we do can save anyone. It cannot. ONLY God can draw someone unto Himself and save them. It is NOT our role to save anyone. It is merely our role to witness for Christ and to commit their salvation to God, if it is His will, not our will. If someone is sincerely questioning and open to making a decision for Christ, then our role is to provide the reason(s) why WE believe. But after that is done, no amount of time or involvement by us will “convince” them. God must act on their hearts to draw them to Him. If you want “proof” of this truth, then look no farther than when Christ was crucified. There were two lost souls crucified along with Jesus. No better “witness” can be found than Christ himself. One of the thieves, faced with the reality of who Jesus was, surrendered to Him and was saved. The other, just as close and privy to all the same information, refused to accept Christ. Unless the Father draws them, they will harden their hearts and refuse. NO amount of witness will change that.

But is very easy, especially when someone has a zealous desire to “help” someone find Christ, to get lost in the “process.” I know this, too, because there was a time in my life when I did much the same thing. I worked with a particular JW for a year. At the end of the time, we were no farther along that we were at the beginning, save for a greater understanding on my part as to how blinding a false religion can be and how twisted one can make Scripture. During that time I felt it was my “duty” to not “give up,” to “fight for his soul.” But God taught me through that time that it is God’s prerogative to save someone, not mine. My “job” is to plant seeds. It is the job of another to “water.” It is the job of still another to “harvest.” And through it all, it is in God’s timing and according to God’s will, not mine….no matter how “noble” the endeavor seemed at the time.

“Oh ye of little faith.” It is God who is always in control, not me. There ARE many who will not accept Christ and who will not be in Heaven. “Fair or unfair” is up to God, not to me. I am His servant. He commands, I obey….whether I like it or not.

It is equally possible that, as in the case of the JW that I worked with, that your wife’s OM may be trying to “convert” her to Islam. I am not at all certain from what she has been doing that she is equipped with the “full armor of God” to be able to withstand the fiery arrows and twisting that is fundamental to Islam. Hence my concern for WHO is talking to your wife and supporting her from a Christian standpoint.

Why do I think this is a real possibility? Consider what you wrote; He was put off by the whole thing and never went back. Granted that the woman may have been overbearing, but it does indicate a great reluctance, perhaps rejection, of the Good News. I don’t see him as “questioning” or “open” at this time, and possibly like the lost thief on the cross, never will be.

As much as we, and God, would love to see every come to acceptance of Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior, we know from Scripture that this is NOT going to happen. Satan is alive and well and IS the “ruler of the earth” for now. He does deceive and he does “blind” people to the truth. “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me.” God has given us the only way to salvation for our souls. There IS such a thing as the “Elect” and our “free will” is involved in choosing to open the door and invite Christ in. And “hardening of our hearts” is also a choice. The Parable of the Sower (Seeds) is Christ’s illustration that not all WILL come to Him, and an admonition to examine ourselves. Your wife can sow all the seeds she wishes, and that is good. But it is NOT up to her to save anyone. That is up to God and the individual and their responsiveness or hardness of heart.

If your wife truly has a heart for missions work, there are many avenues available to her. But the FIRST avenue is to be obedient to God and submissive to God’s commands. “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” Pride is “another god.” It is the one that gets us into trouble most often. “No one but ME can save this person.” In perhaps some very rare instances that might be true, but not in most circumstances. If your wife has a burden for missions, then she needs to get training in missions work, in apologetics, and in the “team” approach to reaching out to others.

Her actions in putting this “work” above your marriage is prima facia proof that her priorities and understanding of God’s commands are NOT in order. Her “witness” will be seen more for how SHE values obedience to God than all the thousands of words she might utter or profess. “This is love, if you love Me, keep my commands.”

God puts obedience at the “top of the list.” He does not “suggest” obedience anymore than He gave us the “Ten Suggestions.”

Remember that marriage is the first covenant that God established with man. He blessed it and called it “very good.” Satan corrupted it and put forth the lie that “God didn’t REALLY mean what He said,” and that the individual can place their “reason and desire” ahead of God because they know more than God.

That is precisely what your wife appears to be doing. That is also what you, GG, appear to be doing with your treating your wife as an infidel. Your wife, whether you like it or not, is “one flesh” with you. Will you “cut off your nose to spite your faith?” If you continue to refuse to discuss anything with her, how do you think that she will respond when she see YOUR actions as being in opposition to God’s commands to you?

GG, you and your wife are both Christians. You are not “unevenly yoked.” You are the God appointed spiritual head of your household. If not you, then who?

And now I will show you the most excellent way. If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails. (1Cor. 12:31b – 13:8a NIV)

Therefore, since through God’s mercy we have this ministry, we do no lose heart. Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ. (2Cor.4:1-6 NIV)

Be very careful, then, how you live – not as unwise but as wise, making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord’s will is. (Eph.5:15-16 NIV)

Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

Husbands, love your wives, jut as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no on ever hated his own body, but feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church – for we are members of his body.

For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh. This is a profound mystery – but I am talking about Christ and the church. However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband. (Eph.5:22-33 NIV)

GG, read also Ephesians 6: 10-18.

The battle you are engaged in is a battle with the schemes of the devil. Your wife is being enticed by Satan into sin in much the same way that Satan tempted Christ. “Didn’t God say…..” and then twisting it so that is “sounds good” to faulty human reason. Your wife needs you to help her understand God’s will and God’s commands. YOU are Christ’s “stand in” in your marriage. So put on the full armor and lead.

“I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.” (Phil. 4: 13)

God teaches us all. When we listen and obey, His power is seen through us. When we ask, according to HIS will, not our will, He will answer us. Whether that answer is “yes, no, or not now,” we submit to His perfect will and trust in Him. Yes, it can be “uncomfortable” to our human nature to “wait on the Lord.” But God doesn’t ask for us to obey only when we are comfortable. He simply says, “If you love me, obey my commands.”

God bless.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">FH, You have some great insights. There are a couple of things I take exception to:

1. In this situation, GG is under the guidance of Steve Harley, a believer who has a proven method for recovering marriages from sinful behavior on the part of one or both spouses.

2. In this situation, GG is no longer living with a believer. She is a psuedo-believer, who believes that she can convert a non-believer to Christ by violating Christ's laws. She sees any action on GG's part to "enlighten" her as "control", rebels, and moves herself further from the fold of Christ.

The scriptures are clear; that when one is participating in sinful behavior, they are confronted, by one or more witnesses, which has been done, by GG, and his children. She has not turned from her wicked behavior, instead, turning to manipulation to allow herself to continue in sin, AND have the benefits that righteous living would afford her. Shunning is the prescribed treatment for such a person. For if she is not shunned, she will harm the remaining body of believers, which she persists in trying to access to do.

Hence, GG's locking her out of his life, is exactly what the scriptures say he should do. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">KaylaAndy - I agree that if GG, or anyone for that matter, is utilizing the services of a good Counselor, Steve Harley or anyone else, they should generally restrict themselves to that counselor for the "duration." "Too many cooks can spoil the broth" sort of thing.

However, with all due respect, GG has chosen to continue posting and places a high value on many posters, like Mimi, and their opinions. I trust that GG is a "big guy" and can sift opinions and weight them against his belief structure, keeping and discarding opinions as he sees fit.

For me, and I suppose it's not much of a surprise to anyone, I put the Scripture at the top of the "advice" column. Do I disagree that there are benefits to Plan A and Plan B? No, of course not. But again the "tools" one uses also need to be appropriate to the situation. "The Tool" that is always "on target" is God's word. God does not say "no separation." What He says is "separation for a brief time," then come together again. We already KNOW that GG has been tempted. We already know that he is vulnerable. we already know that he has "latched onto" a chosen few posters for advice.

Yes, the MB principles HAVE been successful for many. They have also been unsuccessful for many. The ISSUE I am addressing is not the "method," it is the issue that they are both Christians and God's counsel and commands should, therefore, come before all others. Bottom line is that recovery is going to take BOTH spouses or it will not happen. Ending the "affair," if in this case one even exists, IS a valid goal. But attendant to that goal is also the issue of "what's left" to salvage if one is not careful about what is "cut out" in the process.

Once again I am going to state that GG has given NO proof of an affair. He suspects an EA because of the continuing contact. He finally reveals that his wife sees this Islamic man as her personal "mission field" and is quite probably thinking that she is doing "God's work." That attitude, that lack of balance, that lack of prioritizing "God's work" has gotten many a Christian marriage in trouble.

God first. Spouse second. Children third. Everyone else a very distant fourth.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree wholeheartedly with KAYLA.

We need to continue to follow MB PRINCIPLES here.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mimi - Okay. Let's put MB PRINCIPLES ahead of God's commands. Let's make those "principles" written in concrete and NOT adaptable to any given situation. Let's see, where do we begin? Let's say.....in ALL cases, 6 months of Plan A, followed by 6 months of Plan B. If the WS has not responded within that timeframe, then Plan D. If the spouse responds, then 3 months for withdrawal, followed by a year or two of recovery, then we are RECOVERED and no longer need anything.

However, let me make it perfectly clear, if GG does not want me "chiming in" all he needs to do is to say so and I WILL "butt out." I post out of concern for him and his marriage, especially as a brother in Christ. But as in the rest of things, it is God's plan that will be most important whether I say anything or not.

I AM going to say that not one of us is "innocent." God is talking to WS and BS alike. The things that may need changing may be different, but change is what God is directing us to. It IS part of the sanctification process. And a lot of those lessons are learned the hard way, unfortunately. At least they have been for me.

EA's are real and they dangerous as we all know. Male/female overdependence on one another is how a lot of it gets started. There MAY be some EA in GG's wife's relationship, but it seems far more likely that it's an over zealousness for "doing God's work." She may well see it as a "failure" of her own if the OM does not accept Christ and that spurs on to "keep trying." I also watch other relationships here on MB and wonder how close to an EA line they might become. One of the MB "principles" is "male/male" and "female/female" relationships only, especially when discussing sensitive and emotional topics.

IF one were to fully "buy into" your statement of "MB principles here," then I would suggest that you change our posting to something like "only males can respond to males and only females can respond to females and never male to female or female to male."

Priciples are "guidelines." They are like an "outline." They give structure and guidance, but they are not a step-by-step manual that results in a "finished product" just like you wanted at the beginning. The guidelines do NOT apply in ALL siutations, and not in the same sequence or duration. They allow for divergence and the ability to "get back on track" if one strays too far and starts to flounder.

So anyway, I'll just step back into the shadows and deal with my own marriage for a while.

God bless.

Wow, FH, I think we've hit your hot button. (And I thought I did some long posts).

Okay, first let's put to rest the idea that this MAY or MAY NOT be an EA. If I heard "I just want you to know that I would like to sleep with him, and if I do, it's because I love him and not that I lust for him". Would those words put an end to the argument about whether or not an EA exists? Good, because that's what I've been treated to along with her "Godly" concern for him. Mimi is more on track here, dictionary example of Satanic influence.

Next, WW is indeed a believer and always will be (that's another theological debate that I'll not enter into here). However, I now see that the BEST chance I have of being a Godly husband and helping her is to allow her to experience the fruits of her choices, which she is now enjoying. Loss of those that truly love her, total dependence on a fantasy. Yes, this is love, it is tough love.

And lastly, I honestly believe that I had spent another week listening to all the stuff she spews I would hate her and have already filed for divorce. Plan B if for no other reason than to protect my own sanity, which, but the way, is the ONLY reason that SH gave to enter into Plan B.

She is actively destroying herself in the eyes of her family. #1S told me tonight that Mom has really gotten nasty in the last week, but we were careful not to discuss details. We spent 22 years raising him in a Christian home, spent countless hours in prayer, read all the books, spent a 6 figure sum to educate him in the best Christian school available to us, and loved him all the way through and were united in everything we did. Now, WW is tossing that down the toilet for an unemployed, already married guy who isn't even a Christian.

My choice, very clearly, was to side with her and lose my family along with her and someday enjoy the company of her mission project possibly sleeping in my bed with my wife in my house....or to say "enough is enough", I'm going with the winning team. I've made my choice, I'm clear before God, and that's that. If she continues down this road, she is history. I am powerless to stop it EXCEPT to say...you need a small taste of the milk before you buy the cow, and that's exactly what Plan B is doing right now.

Stay tuned for a SH update from today.

Georgia

<small>[ December 22, 2004, 08:56 PM: Message edited by: Georgia Guy ]</small>

I've been patiently waiting for the SH update!!!

<small>[ December 22, 2004, 09:31 PM: Message edited by: Georgia Guy ]</small>