Well I read everything you have posted and I think you are right to start with the brother first especially seeing that he is a counselor. From what I have read...you wife won't do the SH counseling yet because thats what you want. Better to back door this with a trusted family member first. Maybe he can calm her down--it will be a start.
Its strange because a few months ago I thought your situation with no PA involved had a better chance of turnaround than others....but lately I am thinking you actually have it worse. Especially since this is the second time she had this type of EA.

<small>[ December 20, 2004, 06:51 PM: Message edited by: InLikeFlynn ]</small>

You said:

"Also, in your case (sorry if this is painful), wasn't it only after the bubble of the OW was burst that FWH was able to see what he had in you? WW isn't there yet, despises me right now. But yet you seem to be saying that's okay, just get the NC letter? "

My Response:

Sorry. Maybe I am not being clear. The NO CONTACT LETTER is a letter written to the OM, mailed by the WW, indicating that their relationship is over FOREVER AND EVER. This is a big thing for a WS to do. This is not a simple thing for a WS. Also, this has to be backed up with the NC precautions. I am a strict believer in MB's, remember. This is what MB recommends. Neithe MB nor Steve Harley himself requires a session with him or a counselor prior to MARITAL RECOVERY. IMHO, that's a big demand on a WS at this point. Just writing, sending and really being committed to what is stated in the NO CONTACT LETTER is a major step.

I admit to being biased. However, I am also speaking from my own experience in being in counseling with Steve Harley. My FWH did speak with him during my PLAN A and after his return home. However, I did not make this a requirement for RECOVERY. The important thing for me for his commitment to ceasing contact with the OW. THAT IS WHAT IS NECESSARY TO BREAK THE ADDICTION!!

I think the road to home needs to be specifically spelled out. Their foggy brains need concreteness and specifics. KEEP IT SIMPLE and MAKE WHATEVER YOU SAY INTO A BROKEN RECORD.
It's your choice though, Georgia. If you want counseling with Steve Harley to be one of your conditions, then add this to your plan. I just know that it would not have worked in my case.

You said:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've not done a good job here and I've not given her a clear path back home. However, I DO NOT think she is ready for that, but I do need to clarify this somehow </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My response:
I would suggest repeating your conditions SIMPLY AND SPECIFICALLY in another letter. However, I believe you are right that she is not ready. However, if she does meet your conditions, whatever they are, meet her with open arms. Until she does, if ever she does, STAY DARK!!!!!

When my FWH was ready to come home, he began talking specifically with me about what I wrote in my PLAN B LETTER. Yes, they need a road map home because their brains are not working at full capacity.

I agree about getting your children out of the middle of this. This is between you and your WW.
I think she has gotten to you, trying to get you off of your PLAN.

GET BACK UP ON YOUR HORSE, PULL DOWN THE SHADES AND TURN OFF THE LIGHTS!!!

<small>[ December 20, 2004, 07:01 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Mimi,

My experience doesn't compare to yours, I was never in Plan B. I see your point about not requiring Georgia's wife to talk to SH.

It's probably too much to ask. He probably needs to talk with SH to fill him in on what's happening and go from there.

It just seems to me that she's trying to manipulate him to lessen the consequences of her actions, not heal the marriage. There's a post by Cerri over on SYMC, I'll copy it here. It spells out what can happen when a BS hasn't protected themselves well enough in Plan B.

Here's the info -

As your emotions are bombarded day after day with the cruelty and thoughtlessness inherent in an addiction you begin to lose your love for your spouse. Worse, you find that you have moments of pure hatred when you see how he or she puts the lover ahead of the well being of your children and is willing to throw away your financial security for this interloper. The day will come, all too soon, when you decide that you’re done and that even if your spouse came to you begging for reconciliation you have lost all respect for him or her and would not consider the possibility. In the interest of your marriage, your children and yes, yourself, you need to be protected from getting to this place.

<small>[ December 20, 2004, 07:18 PM: Message edited by: CSue ]</small>

stby...posting shortly

<small>[ December 20, 2004, 07:49 PM: Message edited by: Georgia Guy ]</small>

I had almost finished my reply, wireless server working well tonight. I went to send it and found that I was off-line, no signal up here. I quietly went downstairs to investigate. My server was unplugged. Hum...wonder how that happened? Oh well...

FA-A: Thanks, but I can't think of anything you can do. I might say that is certainly a beautiful area you live in.

Okay, trusted advisers:

For those of you who are career G.G. followers, you will recall that WW seems to have a number of issues. She has been told my #1MC, as well as her own brother, that she needs IC. Couple this with the med stuff, the MLC stuff, the EA stuff...and I'm kinda overwhelmed on where to start. I really, really think I need SH to be her first point of contact to seek any kind of reconciliation. Otherwise, I think a quagmire is just a few steps away. We've got a pretty clean Plan-B going (with some exceptions), I don't want to mess it up now.

I don't wish to approach her for any discussion at all at this point. She is obviously not ready for any kind of serious commitment. She is only ready to absolve her pain, which is not my desire at this stage of the game. (I must say that it hurts me to know she is suffering).

But...Mimi, in your view. If she sent the NC letter to OM, followed by the "open book" precautions, then what happens next? I guess I need to read SAA as soon as it arrives, but would we then revert to something like Plan A again to assume she will fall in love with me in the absence of OM? Is that the idea?

Yes, I have again renewed my request for S's not to communicate with me about their mom. That is a tough one, kinda like breaking off an important aspect of communication with your own kids. An area that is off limits to discussion, so to speak. I've got to keep myself clean in this area also, and be careful not to talk with them about WW.

On the DIL issue. I'm not sure what was said, but I know that it is serious. Funny thing is, of all the people in our family, #1 DIL is probably the strongest personality. I can assure you that she will sorely rake WW over the coals if she needs to, but she'll do it with Christian love and mercy. #2DIL would curl up and cry. WW made a poor choice in offending #1 DIL. If that's not enough, #1S will confront ANYONE who is unkind to his wife....WW has chosen poorly with whatever she has done here.

Okay, Mimi....the lock is changed on the door. Now I've got to figure out how to get my pillows back from "our" bed, which is where they migrated to over the weekend. (I peeked as I went up the stairs).

BTW - Dinner with my parents tonight. Mom brought up laundry, sincerely (I think) asks that I drop it by on the way to work one morning and she'll gladly do it for me. Seems like that is working out good.

Thanks for the valuable input of all today.

Georgia

And, I'd like to address the following from CSue's post:

Quote:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As your emotions are bombarded day after day with the cruelty and thoughtlessness inherent in an addiction you begin to lose your love for your spouse. Worse, you find that you have moments of pure hatred when you see how he or she puts the lover ahead of the well being of your children and is willing to throw away your financial security for this interloper. The day will come, all too soon, when you decide that you’re done and that even if your spouse came to you begging for reconciliation you have lost all respect for him or her and would not consider the possibility. In the interest of your marriage, your children and yes, yourself, you need to be protected from getting to this place. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is it possible that I waited TOO long to go into Plan B? I have no real desire for an immediate reconciliation. I remember the constant taunting about OM and all those comments about him, while disparaging me, that I'll not repeat. But, the point is, I'm enjoying the peacefullness of Plan B, I am not anxious for it to end.

This may sound horrible, and non-MB like, but I'm going to have to see some REAL changes and commitments before I jump back into that briar patch. I have no desire to do that again.

Comments?

Georgia

Georgia:

So what are you saying? If she meets the conditions of your PLAN B tomorrow, you won't work on RECOVERY of your M?

You said:" would we then revert to something like Plan A again to assume she will fall in love with me in the absence of OM? Is that the idea? "

Yes, Georgia. You didn't forget that RECOVERY is the next step did you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

PLAN A FOR LIFE as stated by Worthatry!!

BTW, I was not at all suggesting any discussion with her. I was suggesting another letter since you stated that you may not have been clear in your initial PLAN B letter.

<small>[ December 20, 2004, 08:06 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

No Mimi...that's not what I'm saying.

I'm saying it has to be genuine...not a hoax.

I don't want more of the same. Seems that "false recovery" is something I see and hear on this board a lot. I want to know it's for real...

Okay, I'm not saying it well. Yesterday, the voice mail she left me said "okay, you win. now what?". Am I to interpret that to mean that if she will write the NC letter and agree to the principles of NC, then we're on our way and Plan B is over with? This is what I am struggling with. Earlier you said (in regards to saying she loves me):

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yes she does need to say this as well in the letter. H was able to state that he loved me but not "in love" with me.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So how does that fit in with NC, etc?

Georgia

<small>[ December 20, 2004, 08:12 PM: Message edited by: Georgia Guy ]</small>

GEORGIA:

Get clear about your plan!!

There will be no guarantees in this.

You've got to know what you want, tell her and then continually work on things in your marriage.

It takes awhile for them to break the addiction. There may or may not be false recoveries.

Are you ready for the hard work or not?

Okay Mimi...I don't know why I'm having such a hard time with this. Bear with me.

I am ready for the real work. See my edit on my last post.

Georgia

All right, I'm going to take another shot at this. My brain doesn't seem to be working tonight.

RECOVERY, next stage. Got it. However, if WW doesn't want M RECOVERY, only wants sons back, and will do what it takes including NC letter et al..then should I "honor" that?

I guess that is the best way to explain my confusion right now.

Yes.

She may initially say that she is coming back for the sons but that is part of the fog.

This is the way it goes.

Home. Withdrawal for 3 to 6 months THEN RECOVERY. When she meets your PLAN B Conditions, whatever those are, must include the NO CONTACT LETTER then you let her come home. YOU DO PLAN A AGAIN WILE SHE IS IN WITHDRAWAL. DURING WITHDRAWAL, THERE IS HIGH RISK OF FALSE RECOVERY IF THE WS RE-ESTABLISHES CONTACT.

Okay, Mimi...thanks for helping me get my thoughts straight.

I've got to go back and read over all of these posts and "ponder". As you may can tell, I ponder a lot.

I want to see what this all really means right now. One thing it means is that you are right that I need to do second letter, short, sweet, and to the point. I need to clarify conditions. As confused as I am, I know she must be.

I will do that and run it past you and others for comment.

However, tonight I'm tired and had all the heavy conversation I can stand right now.

<small>[ December 20, 2004, 09:01 PM: Message edited by: Georgia Guy ]</small>

Georgia,

When's your next appt with SH?

I think you should consult with him to find out what his thoughts are based on what's been happening. Even if your wife won't consult with him, he can give you specific advice on exactly what he wants you to do right now.

I haven't made one yet, but I think it is time to do so.

I will call tomorrow and set up my next appt.

Thanks, CSue.

Good Morning, All -

I have an appt. with Steve at 12:30 EST tomorrow (Wednesday).

Georgia

Great News!

Looking forward to learning about his input!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WW is telling everyone that will listen that she never loved me, knew when she walked down the aisle that she didn't love me, worse mistake of her life, etc. Has told the boys this, my parents, her parents, best friends, etc.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Georgia Guy - Reading all of this stuff is getting to be an illustration of what it's like to place ourselves ahead of God in the "in control" department.

GG, you've stated that both you and your wife are Christians. Has this changed? If so, then we need to talk about your (and your wife's) relationship with Christ BEFORE all of these other things that seem to have the forefront of your mind and thoughts.

Your wife's statement (in the above quotation) is all illustration in point. Nowhere in the Scripture is the wife commanded to love her husband. But a husband IS commanded to love his wife. However, let me also say that in the majority of cases, most women find it very difficult to make love to a man that they are NOT in love with. Your children are one testament to the fact that she did/does love you, no matter how she might try to twist things now. Your wife is merely trying to “rewrite history” to justify her adulterous actions. Unfortunately for her, even if it her statements were true, there is no justification for her behavior because it is direct opposition to God’s command to her as a wife in a covenant relationship with you and Him.

That does NOT mean that your wife "cannot," or "will not" love you. It means that her love for you grows from, and is a natural outcome of two equally essential things. First, you love her and behave towards her in a loving manner (not selfish, but sacrificial, with a posture of servanthood). Second, as you both surrender your lives, and marriage, to God through humble obedience to HIS will, not your own, you will begin to grow in "Christ-likeness." As you move closer to God in your individual walks, you WILL move closer to each other. That is God's promise to you, and God is faithful to all of His promises.

You, GG, on the other hand, have spent almost your entire time attempting to control events in your marriage WITHOUT God as the head of your marriage. Oh sure, I understand the desire to "do something." I also am not saying that you "just sit back and let God do everything." YOUR role is to be obedient to God's commands FIRST. YOUR role is to be certain that the things that you do ARE in accord with God's commands and not merely your human reason or emotions convincing you to do something that is at odds with God's commands. Even your Plan B needs to be consistent with God’s commands. And as far as I can tell, it is. Just remember that the primary “goal” is to reestablish her relationship with God, not to manipulate her into ending her affair. The ending of the affair and the recovery of your marriage will be a result of her decision to obey God first. If that commitment is made to God first, then all the rest will follow as you both continue to honor God through obedience to His commands for both of you. You see, we NEED to be active, especially during a crisis time. We cannot do nothing, but we do need to make sure that what we are doing is consistent with God’s direction in Scripture with the goal of restoration of our walk in obedience to our Lord and Savior.

You keep asking for a "roadmap," a set of "directions" for what to do next. This "recovery" is NOT an erector set. It is not, "do step 1, then step 2, then step 3, then..., and you will have the "finished product" you set out to build. Relationships are fluid and dynamic. They change and we react to various forms of input. THE input that you both need is God's will and God's direction for your lives and your marriage. Until you both arrive at the point of surrendering your will to His will, and letting God (through your trust in Him as both your Creator and your Father) direct your lives, you will forever be chasing after anything that "tickles your ears" and "sounds good" to your human reason.
GG, you’ve gotten a lot of good information about how a WS thinks and rationalizes their behavior. You’ve gotten a lot of good advice about what a BS has to deal with if they want to recover their marriage. You’ve gotten a lot of good advice on what a WS needs to do in order to begin the healing process (i.e., No Contact commitment). But the issue that seems to remain is whether or not you both, as Christians, are willing to surrender your “wills” to God’s will no matter how you are thinking or feeling at any given moment.

GG, THE issue that needs to be addressed, as children of God, purchased and owned by God with the cost of His Son, is whether or not you will surrender your lives to God as both Lord and Savior.

No one is saying that such a “surrender” is “easy.” It is necessary and it is required for Christians. You both (as do we all) continue to live in a “fallen body” and are going to have to constantly fight the battle against sin in it’s many forms. Adultery is just one form of sin. So is disobedience.

GG, there are many non-Christians who choose to live as moral a life as they can. They choose their own standards for that “morality,” but the basic state of their being has not changed. Only acceptance of Jesus Christ as both our Savior and our Lord can change our “basic nature.” Once having made that decision, we accept that God “knows best.” We surrender our “free will” to Him and follow his commands in humble submission, no matter how our “flesh” might be feeling. In Christ, we have someone who KNOWS intimately all that we are feeling and struggling with. And He has made promises to us that He WILL keep, if we obey Him. Sometimes we have to simply “endure” through the hard times that will surely be a part of the process, simply clinging to God’s promises. This is especially true in the arena of infidelity and marital relationships. Infidelity IS devastating….and it gives us a little understanding of just how much God loved us “while we were yet sinners” in sacrificing His only Son for us, knowing that some would never accept His total sacrifice, yet knowing that only through that sacrifice would some of us become His bride and find forgiveness and healing.

Then he said to them, “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me.” Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”

Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. “Could you men not keep watch with me for one hour?” he asked Peter. “Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak.”

He went away a second time and prayed, “My Father, if it is not possible for this cup for be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done.” (Matt.26:38-42 NIV)

Jesus went out as usual to the Mount of Olives, and his disciples followed him. On reaching the place, he said to them, “Pray that you will not fall into temptation.” He withdrew about a stone’s throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.” An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground. When he rose from prayer and went back to the disciples, he found them asleep, exhausted from sorrow. “Why are you sleeping?” he asked them. “Get up and pray so that you will not fall into temptation.” (Luke 22:39-46 NIV)

While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw as ghost. He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.” (Luke24:36-39)

GG, Christ is alive and KNOWS all that you are going through. He asks you the same question that He asked the disciples….Why are you troubled and why do doubts rise in your mind? Is it because you are trusting in God, or in your own abilities? Christ KNOWS about anguish and pain. Christ KNOWS about wanting the “cup to pass.” The example He laid down for us is the same as it was for Himself, “yet not my will, but yours be done.”

GG, God is NOT promising to be there for you only for today. He is promising to be there for you EVERY day along the way, no matter what is encountered or how severe the anguish, or the temptations that you might also have to face. Even in the face of an incalcitrant and unrepentant spouse, God WILL be there for you and will be “in control” of all things for those who love and trust in Him.

So what’s next? The growing realization for your wife that she cannot “have her cake and eat it too.” As the prodigal son seemed to think that he could have whatever he wanted and that everyone would love and accept him, he found out that it was an illusion. True love and security was, and is, found in humbly surrendering to the Father’s will. His “yoke” IS light and easy, no matter how our flesh screams at us that we are being “dummies” for not indulging our own emotional responses.

GG, the healing will begin when your wife surrenders to God, not to you or to your children. If she “justifies” a “surrender” without God, she will continue to withhold a true surrender and will “justify” it in her mind as being a “martyr.” SHE will retain the idea that “she” is in control, not God, and that she can choose to sin again when, and if, she thinks the circumstances are “right.”

So, since you are not communicating directly with your wife, you should be communicating daily with God. You should be praying daily for God to intervene in your wife’s life and lead her to repentance first to God and then to you. You must also be praying for your heart to be prepared to forgive as God forgives and to maintain a posture of loving servanthood from this day forward, as you fulfill your God-given role as husband to your wife.

GG, the consequences of sin will be around for quite a while. The “remedy” for those consequences is forgiveness and an ongoing commitment, daily, to walk with God in humble obedience.

GG, I have talked many times about God’s promises and the “triangle” of marriage. If you’d like another view of that triangle, just look at MB’s logo, with the two arrows pointing toward the peak of the central arrow. God’s promise is quite simple. As both partners in the marriage start out at the bottom of the triangle and move closer to Him, the distance between the husband and wife WILL get smaller and smaller. Stop moving toward him, or reversing the direction, or going off on your own direction, and you will move apart.

God bless.

WOW Forever Hers,
That was an awesome post

GG,
I was wondering if ww has ever met the ow? They just met online? If they have never met in person I just don't understand how anyone can throw away their life for someone who they have no clue about. I guess that is the fantasy talk.

Have you heard of the Power of a Praying Husband? it's by Stormie (forgot her last name) I have the power of a praying husband and that is something that has helped me through the last 5 yrs of different situations with my H.

AmiEnough - Yes, they have met for a few days. The book you are referring to is by Stormie Omartian. I have some of her music, but not read the book.

FH - See, I told you that were the chaplain of the MB boards.

Okay, I'm not going to attempt to address everything you've said.

First, yes indeed I do still maintain daily prayer / devotion. And she is very much a part of that everyday.

Perhaps I haven't said too much about it here, but just a little more background. WW also continues a daily devotion (as far as I know right now), and sees her mission as leading OM to Christ. As you may have caught earlier, he is a Muslim. She sees him as "searching", and if it wasn't for her no one would be there to point him to the right way. She has expressed great disappointment that I don't relate more concern for his soul, and that I should feel guilty because I don't have the same burning desire for his eternal security as she does.

Indeed, when we were in Vancouver we went to church together. I had found what seemed a pretty solid church by some web searches, and we all attended together. It was indeed an incredible church, obviously Spirit led. We were approached by a lady who leads a mission to Iranians and she latched onto OM real quickly. He was put off by the whole thing and never went back. (WW was upset that she didn't get to go to church with him alone...I was there too).

And yes, I am aware of the command of a husband to love his wife (unconditionally). I agree, and I understand.

The issue that I think clouds this whole discussion, and one which relates directly to sin, is that of free will. You have said in a number of places about what EACH of us should do. I would like to think that if a H performs his role (Biblically), the W would follow by submitting to her role. However, this is not necessarily the case. Each member of a marriage still maintains free will, and can choose rebellion even in the best of circumstances. And this is most likely to happen, IMO, when relational priorities are out of order. It can happen a number of ways, but one way it can happen is when the OM relationship is stronger than the relationship to either H or God. I think that is what has happened here. I think we have even seen, quite unfortunately, that the OM relationship is stronger than the bond between a mother and child. If this is true, and I say IF, then that relationship will have to be resolved (or dissolved) before the others can be restored to their rightful place. I think that is the attempt of Plan B right now. I think there is clear evidence that the OM relationship is stronger than all others.

And, it is so strong that it clouds the judgement (okay, fog) to the point that a Godly woman can say that her wedding vows are null and void because she was too young to know what she was saying.

All of these things combined indicate to me the necessitity of "cleaning the house", but then rightfully replacing what has left (OM) with what is right (God + H).

I guess what I am saying, FH, is that everything you say is correct...BUT....you have not adequately addressed the consequences of sin. This is what muddies the water to the point that it must be dealt with FIRST before ANY of the other relationships can be made right.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Just remember that the primary “goal” is to reestablish her relationship with God, not to manipulate her into ending her affair. The ending of the affair and the recovery of your marriage will be a result of her decision to obey God first. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is where we would possibly disagree. I DO NOT think that as long as the EA continues, she can reestablish the proper relationship with God (short of direct divine intervention).

Georgia