Okay, here's the SH update from today.

Requisite warning ....this is for my situation, may not apply to all.

Actually, probably the only reason I made today's appointment was to clarify the "first step" requirements of WW should she decide she's ready for that. SH and I talked a long time, went over a lot of MB principles about what love is and isn't, etc. Not too much need to go over that here, unless requested to do so.

But, SH firmly feels the first step of WW needs to be to contact him directly. Main reason for this is that she believes she can never love me again, sees no hope for a future with me and nothing but misery. He needs an opportunity to present to her how indeed she can be happily married and in love, and why he can say that. In other words, he has to be the harbinger of hope for her to WANT to continue in the marriage, not just be FORCED to continue in the marriage.

So, we are in agreement, WW's first move does indeed need to be to contact him.

Also...(Mimi, this is for you)...it is expected and normal for the BS to "enjoy" their time in Plan B as the pain of the R has been removed. He even went so far as to say that I am likely not in love with her right now, but there is no doubt that my love can be rekindled upon her returning to "loving" actions, etc.

This is a quick summary, but captures the essence of all that was said. He is very pleased with my support structure (family), tells me that I am blessed (which I knew), and just basically to keep on as I am.

And...expect her to get nastier as time goes by and pressure builds.

Georgia

Contact HIM, meaning Steve Harley? Does Steve think that she is likely to do this?

Yes, he does. In due time, when the pain is all she can take.

He did clarify that it is acceptable that the pain comes from loss of sons instead of H. The result can still be the same, the introduction of MB principles to restore love in the marriage.

Now the goal is to stay in YOUR PLAN and to not try to step into relieve her pain, right? She is going to think of all the plays that she can.

I really value Steve Harley's opinion.

Yes, that is right. Stay DARK in Plan B. There is really no new "tricks" at this time, just patience.

I did ask about financial issues, should I still be meeting those needs. He said yes unless she does something drastic, like leave to go to Vancouver. In that case, a legal separation would be in order.

That's about all there is right now. There was such a diversity of opinions on whether or not contact with SH should be req'd, that was the main thing I wanted to clarify with him.

This post is it for me, getting tired again. Thanks for checking on me, I appreciate it.

Have a good evening.

Georgia

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If I heard "I just want you I would like to sleep with him, and if I do, it's because I love him and not that I lust for him". Would those words put an end to the argument about whether or not an EA exists? Good, because that's what I've been treated to along with her "Godly" concern for him. Mimi is more on track here, dictionary example of Satanic influence.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep, those words would indicate an EA in my mind.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Next, WW is indeed a believer and always will be (that's another theological debate that I'll not enter into here). However, I now see that the BEST chance I have of being a Godly husband and helping her is to allow her to experience the fruits of her choices, which she is now enjoying. Loss of those that truly love her, total dependence on a fantasy. Yes, this is love, it is tough love.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep, I'm a big believer in "Love Must Be Tough." I also would encourage separation following a discussion along the lines of "choose one or the other, but you can't have both," where she chose the OM. BUT, that separation would not be "in house," where all the "amenities" except for your conversation would be available. I know this one well, too. The old "been there, done that."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And lastly, I honestly believe that I had spent another week listening to all the stuff she spews I would hate her and have already filed for divorce. Plan B if for no other reason than to protect my own sanity, which, but the way, is the ONLY reason that SH gave to enter into Plan B.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Uh huh, perhaps. But if you are a strong Christian walking with Christ, your love would "endure" despite the pain. Again, BTDT. No, it is NOT fun and it is not easy, in fact it's downright painful.

Georgia, I'm going to go back to what I asked earlier....If not you, then who?

YOU may not be the right person right now to witness to your wife, but if not, then who will (or is) fulfilling that role?

I certainly have no problem with her "1st step" back being a session with SH. In fact, I think that would be a requirement, or at least counseling with qualified Christian Marriage Counselor. That was one of my requirements also because a independent "guide" is needed. But along with that is the need that the counseling be grounded in Biblical principles because we are talking about a Christian here.

But who is "leading her" in a review of Scripture? Surely if she thinks she is "doing God's work" she bases that upon "obedience" to the Great Commission. But she's "stepped over the line" and let her emotions cloud her judgment. So who is speaking to her about what the Scripture really says about what she is doing?

Georgia Guy, you have charted a course. You have all the "daily" information at your disposal. Whether or not a "course correction" is needed is also up to you. To me, the priority would seem to be on your wife's need for Christian counseling regarding God's commands as well as God's teaching regarding evangelism to others. In other words, her relationship with Christ comes before recovery of the marriage. With her, or without her, as your wife, I think you would agree that her position with Christ is the "most important" relationship. Without that in proper "balance," there is little hope for a successful recovery no matter what EN's are met.

God bless. May God continue to grant you wisdom and good counsel as you, too, struggle with how to deal with this situation and how to best reflect His love.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ForeverHers:
<strong> [QUOTE]
The scriptures are clear; that when one is participating in sinful behavior, they are confronted, by one or more witnesses, which has been done, by GG, and his children. She has not turned from her wicked behavior, instead, turning to manipulation to allow herself to continue in sin, AND have the benefits that righteous living would afford her. Shunning is the prescribed treatment for such a person. For if she is not shunned, she will harm the remaining body of believers, which she persists in trying to access to do.

Hence, GG's locking her out of his life, is exactly what the scriptures say he should do. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">KaylaAndy - I agree that if GG, or anyone for that matter, is utilizing the services of a good Counselor, Steve Harley or anyone else, they should generally restrict themselves to that counselor for the "duration." "Too many cooks can spoil the broth" sort of thing.

However, with all due respect, GG has chosen to continue posting and places a high value on many posters, like Mimi, and their opinions. I trust that GG is a "big guy" and can sift opinions and weight them against his belief structure, keeping and discarding opinions as he sees fit.

For me, and I suppose it's not much of a surprise to anyone, I put the Scripture at the top of the "advice" column. Do I disagree that there are benefits to Plan A and Plan B? No, of course not. But again the "tools" one uses also need to be appropriate to the situation. "The Tool" that is always "on target" is God's word. God does not say "no separation." What He says is "separation for a brief time," then come together again. We already KNOW that GG has been tempted. We already know that he is vulnerable. we already know that he has "latched onto" a chosen few posters for advice.

Yes, the MB principles HAVE been successful for many. They have also been unsuccessful for many. The ISSUE I am addressing is not the "method," it is the issue that they are both Christians and God's counsel and commands should, therefore, come before all others. Bottom line is that recovery is going to take BOTH spouses or it will not happen. Ending the "affair," if in this case one even exists, IS a valid goal. But attendant to that goal is also the issue of "what's left" to salvage if one is not careful about what is "cut out" in the process.


God first. Spouse second. Children third. Everyone else a very distant fourth.


Mimi - Okay. Let's put MB PRINCIPLES ahead of God's commands. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know, FH, that's just a little too close to a trigger for me. The OW in my life used to use scriptures to bash me for not "reconciling with her" and allowing her unfettered access to my husband again. VERY manipulative.

You conveniently left out the scriptures which supported the bold-faced reference above. GG IS doing his actions according to scripture. It just happens to coincide with the advice of his marriage counselor too.

He has witnessed to her that her actions are wrong. He has witnessed to her with others also witnessing to her. She has figuratively flown the 3rd finger salute in his face. He has removed himself from inflammatory behavior and sinful behavior, which is scripturally prescribed.

So how is MB principles being placed before God's Plan??? It's not. They work together.

BTW, there's a scripture in Deuteronomy about not adding to or taking away from the word. God has us follow the WHOLE bible, not just a piece or two that's convenient to punctuate an argument.

Okay, folks....let me intercede here a moment.

We need to conclude this portion of this debate. As FH as rightfully pointed out, I (GG) am the one ultimately responsible to choose my course. I have chosen it. None of the choices are easy.

I appreciate the input of all Christians. It would be nice if every circumstance was clearly covered with step-by-step instructions from the Bible, but that is not the case. We are left, as Christians, to interpret Godly principles as apply to our situation.

I will ask that we suspend this discussion as I sense that there is danger of a rift among fellow believers, which is to no one's benefit.

FH, I do highly respect your insight. Thank you for understanding mine.

KaylaAndy, I am so sorry to hear of the pain you endured. Thank you for the encouragement, I'm sure that you too have struggled with the right thing to do at times.

Mimi - We're on the same page, as usual.

It means a lot to me that each of you have taken such an intense interest in my situation. I think you all for caring, for posting, for offering your advice. You ALL mean much to me.

Georgia

GG,

Since we're returning to our regularly sceduled program....may I please ask for an update. What are your plans for Christmas?

Whew....thanks for changing subjects.

I also have an aunt & uncle in town. They have invited all of us (parents, me, both sons and DIL's) over Christmas afternoon for a big lunch. So I'm going there.

Georgia

And are you aware of what WW is doing? Will she be with the family too?

Her family is about 350 miles from here. She is going there, but I don't know what day.

#2S / DIL are going there on Sunday for a few days. I don't know if WW is waiting until Sunday or going ealier. #2S doesn't want to go togehter (with WW).

#1S / DIL is not going there. Reasons specified ealier.

GG,

That is great that you got one of Stormie's books. I could always send you the one I have, it's never been used <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Thanks, AIE-

I started reading it yesterday. First chapter during B'fast as a devotion, second chapter later in the day at a park.

That is nice of you to offer your copy, but there may be a time when you would need it again. I'm sure that I can pick one up locally somewhere.

Georgia

Whew!!

I got that other stuff off of my chest and now I am also "back to the regularly scheduled program". I'm glad that you are, too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

You've got to have your energy ready for the NEXT ROUND- whatever that may be. Remember, that she will be on the look out for encounters. Instead of a LONDON FOG, you will now need a MASK and CAPE.

Any idea where I can get some tight shirt with a "GG" on the chest?

Anyway, SH rightfully pointed out yesterday that Plan B should be a time to renew & refresh. The "next round" is just a continuation of this one. I know to expect WW to get more confrontational as time goes by. I'm really hurt that the #1S thing has gotten so out of hand, that is really bad. It is hard now to sometimes remember what a close family we've been. I recently told #1DIL that I felt very bad that this "safe, secure" family that she has married into is doing this to her. She has been through so much already. She is such a blessing to me, when she hugs me and tells me she loves me it just melts me. Like having my own daughter.

Georgia

Yep! I didn't appreciate PLAN B while I was in it! It really was the only time period, over many years, when I had lots of great time with only myself. Looking back, it provided me an opportunity for lots of personal growth. I learned that I could make it on my own.

Looking at it another way, maybe your family was not all that it seemed to be on the outside. Maybe it was time to take off the "rose-colored glasses" to see that "all that glitters is not gold". I've certainly learned that through all of this. Your #1DIL may be helpful to you in helping you and son deal with this adversity. She may have been brought into your life for this reason.(OK, we won't get on that track again but you know what I mean <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

One thing that SH did caution me about was to not start things that I would later have to give up. The need to be careful not to start such an independent life that activities wouldn't "fit" with M during recovery.

Without the glasses, I can see M issues didn't get resolved. Probably not enough H&O from me over the years.

But as far as the "family unit", we were indeed all very, very close. This wasn't a facade. Our relationship with the boys has always been deep and genuine, and their friendship with one another is as close as it can be. It is great to see them being such good friends with one another, and the DIL's love for each other, opposite S is just fantastic. I will even go down that theological road (no debate, please) that I don't think it a conincidence that they live next door to each other right now.

I will say this much on the rose-colored glass issue. WW always felt that #1DIL wasn't "good enough" for #1S, and this was already causing a strain between them (WW - #1DIL). This is going to be a tough relationship to genuinely heal.

Georgia

Georgia:

We are on the same page. I was referring to the rose-colored glasses regarding the M issues.

Your relationship with your sons is so wonderful!!I'm praying for DILs like yours.

Thanks, Mimi....No man could ever have been blessed with better DIL's than I have.

Let me ask your opinion on something. I've got a picture (2 years old) of all 6 of us going on vacation together. This was before #2S was married, but we got a hotel suite with mutiple bedrooms so we could all go and stay together. It was a wonderful week, after end of #1OM and before start of #2OM.

Anyway, do you think it would be appropriate for me to post this pix on that MB picture site that someone here has going?

Good thing or bad thing, IYO?

Georgia

<small>[ December 23, 2004, 09:01 AM: Message edited by: Georgia Guy ]</small>