GG, Who's Carl?

The reason I suggested you call SH is for your peace of mind. SH doesn't believe all marriages should be saved. We have a term here on MB that refers to "earning your divorce". Everyone has different criteria for what that means, but really it is up to each one individually. We tend to give people a hard time when they give up without trying.

No one could say that in your case. I am in my 2nd marriage. My first one was to an alcoholic - and it took me 7 years to feel like I'd earned my divorce. I did the best I could with what I knew; and achieved my goal - which was to let go with love after I did everything I could to try and make that marriage work.

When it was time to move on I knew it - felt at peace then, and still do now many years later. That's what I wish for you - recovery of your marriage if possible, but if not that you can move forward in your life with peace, knowing you did the very best you could. SH supports that as well.

You may not be able to put your wife out of your house, I think that's understandable - but there is probably a way to leave her there so it doesn't come back to haunt you. In my case I stayed in our house, it was an emotional decision - and would have been better off selling it and both of us moving on - a fresh start due to too many memories.

You sound like you have your head on straight for what you're facing, glad you have the appt with the attorney, although others may disagree - I think it's wise.

GG,

After all of this time you have missed the point of this site. It is not to prevent divorce. It is to give the marriage the best chance to survive. You have not failed. You have given your marriage the very best chance it had to survive, that is all that ANYONE can ask. It is all you can ask of yourself.

This is not a marriage at all costs site. You have done a marvelous job of trying to give your marriage a chance, but ultimately you must realize it takes two to make the marriage. Your W has not chosen to participate in the marriage for a long time now. It is her choice. You have yours to make as well.

But please above all else don't think you have let anyone down here or even yourself down. You have earned the right to make the best decision for yourself.

God Bless,

JL

GG, I have something to add. You said:

As I read the threads of some of you and what you are going through, I almost feel guilty making my case seem so significant. I know that many of you have suffered more than I, especially those of you with small children.

This is not a contest, GG. Your pain is as real, as significant, as anybody else's. The wrong that's been done to you is serious. This is big, big stuff. Don't deny yourself the right to suffer because you think you may have had it easier than some others. Honor your suffering, and give yourself permission to make as big a deal out of it as your heart tells you to. Allow yourself to suffer like a child, who places no yardstick on his pain and doesn't judge whether or not it's worthy of attention. It is.

Good luck, GG. I don't post to you much, but I'm on top of your story.

GC

Words cannot express my appreciation for the kind posts from each of you this evening.

Tonight took a much different turn than I had planned. I had invited #2S/DIL to meet me at a local coffee shop after church. I hadn't really planned to discuss this whole thing tonight. However, it was very obvious that the time was right, so I told them all about last night. Then,I told them that I felt like the time was at hand for me to move on, and that I was very likely going to divorce Mom. I told them that I had an appointment with an attorney Tuesday afternoon.

I couldn't have asked for a more supportive conversation from my son. He told me that it was obvious that I had done everything I could to save this marriage, and that he would support me 100%. He says that I have done nothing to hurt him or #1S, and that they loved me and will do whatever it takes to help me through this.

He said "do you remember how Mom used to tell us you could tell what was in somebody's heart by looking in their eyes? Well, when I look in Mom's eyes now, that is not my Mom that I see in there".

I don't know where those d**n aliens have taken my wife, but I would give everything I own to just have 5 minutes with her again. This is so, so very hard. Whatever became of that wonderful, loving, smart, Godly woman that I was once married to? I must assume her to be dead and move on now. If she shows up someday (like a long lost soldier from war), well that would be a wonderful thing. But, I can't go on with life hoping that she will walk in someday and announce that's she's still alive. Life goes on, and I'm ready for Part II.

Obviously, a long road ahead. I'm going to give this a "waiting period" (kinda like buying a handgun), that is the reason that I've not scheduled the attorney until next Tuesday.

The consideration of each of you fills a void that I need to have filled right now. Thank you all.

Where is my most trusted advisor?

Georgia

Okay folks, you're not going to believe this one.

I was in the shower and I could hear some banging around somewhere. I got out quickly and opened the door to the bathroom to see what was going on. WW was there and pushed her way in. I was standing there naked and she gently, kindly attempted to seduce me. Said "I'm not doing this because I have to, I'm doing the because I want to". I pushed away and said "no thank you, I'm not interested". I said the letter makes it clear what you must do to show me love, and this is not it. She started her stuff again about "you aren't showing me any Christian love, etc.". I told her the letter tells her what she must do to show me love.

She turned and left and said "you will regret this someday".

Big SIGH.....

Georgia

Georgia

I took a watercolor class and plan on taking another. It is a great outlet (stress and no R thinking) and it came in handy for Christmas. My brother from CA came to visit last weekend and I whipped up a sailboat watercolor for him -- it was pretty good for an accountant <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I have retained an attorney and have not used him yet. You need to know what your options are whether you go through a D or Separation - so meeting with an attorney does not set anything in stone. My SIL told me Georgia is looking into passing some new D laws - one is if there is an A the WS forfeits all property and the other is there will me a 4-6 month waiting period --much longer than the handgun waiting period <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

GG (or is it Carl?),

I've been following your story for awhile - really didn't have anything to say to you. You are far ahead of me in every way.

I just wanted to say...

Well, I still don't know what to say - except that I very much hope that your W comes back someday - long lost soldier indeed! I know you love her. If she does come back, I know you will give her an amazing welcome.

If it doesn't happen that way, I'm sure your going to have a fine life all the same.

I'm sorry that you have come to the point. I understand. You are a strong, intellegent man. You're only 2 years older than me, but I feel like a boy in comparison. I don't know how you have had the strength to do what you have done.

My best wishes to you,

-AD (mid-forties guy)

GEORGIA:

That's who you are to me....

I'm sorry. I do not believe for one minute that you are ready to divorce your WW. Why, Georgia? The breakthrough is just around the corner. She is coming around. She is missing you and wanting you and feeling pain. Why in the world do you think that she came to you in the shower? She is not there yet but she is working on it.

You have been diagnosed with cancer. You have to go through chemotherapy and perhaps even radiation. The side effects of the chemotherapy are awful...nausea, hair loss, etc. The chemotherapy might not even work. You might eventually die of cancer. So what do you do? Stop chemotherapy midstream. Just give up and die because it's too hard, after living such a great life, with hopes of living a better life.

You know I'm not a strong believer in giving up. I don't really actually believe in divorce to be honest. I believe that GOD brought you and your WW together and evil forces are keeping you apart. I believe that the Devil wants you to no longer have faith in what the LORD can do.

I think what you need to do is a REAL PLAN B with no contact with your WW whatsoever. I would recommend that you figure out a way to pull this off. I think counsel with Steve Harley regarding this is as essential as your appointment with the attorney. The continued contact with your WW is depleting your LOVE BANK.

You may be giving up because you think your real wife will never return. She can. I know this because my H really is back. I look at him with amazement because I didn't think it could happen either. However, I had to give him up for awhile. I gave him over to the alien world, went about my life as if he did not exist (at least I tried to. I only had to do this for a brief period of time. Yet it seemed like an eternity.

I don't think that you have actually had the opportunity to really distance yourself from her or she from you. The inhouse PLAN B did not work.

PLAN B is what you need. Not PLAN D. At least, give PLAN B a try....

Your grandchildren need you and your wife together. At least give it more of a chance. You know you want this. Unless there is something that you are not telling me. You are not keeping any secrets are you, GEORGIA......

P.S. Didn't I tell you about the LOVE IN THE AFTERNOON in my FWH's office right in the middle of MY PLAN B. MM remembers. Your WW is following the standard script. She is getting up on the fence, no longer just eating cake.....

<small>[ January 20, 2005, 09:04 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Mimi...I knew that you would be the one to show up and say the things you said. That is good...I am going to have to be really, really convinced before I do anything.

This isn't something I can debate and win and/or lose. You (as always) make many valid points. You might wish to keep in mind that this has been going on a long, long time when #1OM is included.

Yes...it does play on my mind there are other women out there who MIGHT like to get to know me. I'm lonely and tired of all this. I didn't tell you this, but even the night that I talked to my SS teahers wife (a physician also, remember?), she excitedly said "Oh, I know a lady who would just love to meet you". I don't know who she means, I didn't ask.

Perhaps I am being selfish here. But I'm ready to have my very own real life again. I want to come home to someone who actually cares that I came home ....not someone who will "use" me for companionship and financial support whenever OM isn't handy. Does that make sense, Mimi? As far back as five years ago, I was coming home to a wife that would be sitting at the computer e-mailing #1 OM when I came home from work. I would take her on a date and we would come back home, I would take a shower and go to bed "hoping", but she would go the computer for hours and hours. What was going on in your life 5 years ago, Mimi? That's what was going on in mine.

Add to all that....WW has become so preoccupied with OM that she has virtually shut down all contact with my parents as well as her own parents. This has hurt them a lot. As she would get mad when I went to visit my own parents without her, I (being a CA doormat) basically followed along and turned my back on my own parents. I pass within one mile of their house every day going to/from work. They moved here about 5 years ago (a conincidence?) when my Dad was diagnosed with Alzheimers. Turns out the diagnosis was wrong, but they still need me from time to time. However, if I stopped on the way home to see them, she would get mad.

Likewise, she has ceased all phone contact with her own family (except BIL). Again, her parents are in their late 70's. Her dad told me he just assumed she was going through menopause or something - he wondered why she never called or e-mailed any more.

Okay, now I'm debating you like I said I wouldn't. Sorry.

If you just roll over and say "fine, go get a divorce", I will be disappointed in you. I knew you would be the naysayer, I'm glad you are.

I am, in fact, Georgia

<small>[ January 20, 2005, 10:16 AM: Message edited by: Georgia Guy ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">FH - I, as well as the rest of the GG gang, have met with one of the assoc pastors of our church. He is the one we trust, the one who can be compassionate and resolute at the same time. He has appraised the Sr. Pastor and asked that I meet with him, which I have up until now avoided. However, I will be meeting with him this Friday. He (IMO) is long on resolute and short on compassion. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But you have not, and apparantly your pastor has not, implemented Matthew 18:15-20 yet. Understand that this is a form of "confrontation" in love that is intended to help the sinner realize what they are doing and repent. Sometimes repentance takes place immediately and sometimes it takes time and a process of "getting there" has to occur first. Taken to the end, in the case of an incalcitrant sinner, it is the church equivalent of "No Contact, Plan B".

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know where those d**n aliens have taken my wife, but I would give everything I own to just have 5 minutes with her again. This is so, so very hard. Whatever became of that wonderful, loving, smart, Godly woman that I was once married to? I must assume her to be dead and move on now. If she shows up someday (like a long lost soldier from war), well that would be a wonderful thing. But, I can't go on with life hoping that she will walk in someday and announce that's she's still alive. Life goes on, and I'm ready for Part II. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course you can "go on with life hoping that she will walk in someday and announce that's she's still alive." It's not an issue of "can't," it's simply that you see "won't" as the "easier" choice right now. Here is where I ask you a question Carl, do YOU believe in your marriage vows and the covenant that you entered into with your wife and God? If so, how long is "too long" when you have not exhausted all options (which you have NOT)?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was in the shower and I could hear some banging around somewhere. I got out quickly and opened the door to the bathroom to see what was going on. WW was there and pushed her way in. I was standing there naked and she gently, kindly attempted to seduce me. Said "I'm not doing this because I have to, I'm doing the because I want to". I pushed away and said "no thank you, I'm not interested". I said the letter makes it clear what you must do to show me love, and this is not it. She started her stuff again about "you aren't showing me any Christian love, etc.". I told her the letter tells her what she must do to show me love.

She turned and left and said "you will regret this someday". </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">GG, the "root" again is her walk with Christ. Nevermind that she can be pigheaded and stubborn. Walking with Christ is about surrendering that pigheadedness that we all have and submitting to God's will, not our own will.

But, here's the "ray of hope," she still places some value on being a Christian and is attempting to focus on "one part" of what being a Christian is all about. That can't be done, as we know, but it IS an opening to discussion of Christian beliefs and what obedience to God MEANS, what marital vows of "forsaking all others" means, etc.

GG, your body is not your own anymore than your wife's body is her own when you are married. Think about it.

I'm going back to what I asked you previously, to which you never responded....WHO is going to talk to your wife about Christ and submission and obedience IF NOT YOU? Your sole answer is to "Plan B" as if that is the answer. The answer is NOT solely Plan B for Christians. That may be one tool that is used, but the answer is Christ and obedience to God's commands...all of them.

No discussion, no talking, no searching for the "lost soul," and just HOW do you expect her to repent of her sin. Your Plan B is beginning to look more like manipulation instead of loving concern, or at least that is how she is likely to be perceiving it.

Now with your plans to see an attorney and telling your son that you plan to divorce, it seems that you are "tired of waiting on the Lord."

Carl, I fully understand the feelings of "throw in the towel." I've been there many times and each time I simply(ya, right, it was anything but "simple) "rested in the Lord," endured the feelings, and waited on His timing. We all want things done NOW! But God usually has His timetable for BOTH of us, and HIS focus is on eternity, not just our present marriage. His focus is on teaching both of us how to walk closer to Him.

Carl, you are the spiritual head of your household. You are faced with an extremely difficult task right now, but you are still required by God to be the spritual leader AS Christ representative in your home. IF you want to take over control from God, He will let you. Is that what you want?

Praying for God's wisdom to be showered upon you.

GG,

For reasons unknown to me I took the time last night to read the first 30 pages of this thread. Much later that night or perhaps it was early this morning a few thoughts came to me and I decided to share them with you.

GG, please understand you don't have accept or believe a thing I am saying, but listen to me. If I were running your life and was in MY present frame of mind, I would issue a new plan B letter and on the very top of the list of requirements would NOT be NC with OM. It would be that she see the very best endocrinologist you could find.

Emory is clearly the best in your state and one of the best in the south if not the best. Call there and talk to someone.

As I reread those posts I note the following.

1. She has pain in various places that seems to move around.

2. She has numbness in various places that seems to move around.

3. She is going through the BIG M as Mimi (I believe) refers to it.

4. She is NOT getting near enough sleep. You think she is waking up to call OM, I wonder if she is waking up and THEN decides to call OM.

Now, my degrees are not in medicine or any of the psych fields. But, I do know from military training that sleep deprivation can lead to very very psychotic people. Your W seems to me in that class right now.

Let's review this a bit from this odd perspective.

If she is sleep deprived, going through the "big M", AND she refuses to see doctors, seek counseling, talk with family, I am thinking she is in a state of fear, deep fear.

She knows she is hurting you, she is driving you away. She may have fears of you leaving her even before all of this started. So what is the constant, some OM, that she has an EA with. Someone, who is close, but NOT too close. Someone, she has come to depend on in the middle of the night. She cannot let him go because of her fears. She does not want to let you go either.

I think what trigger my thinking on this was your Sons' comment about her eyes being dead coupled with the getting up and talking on the phone all night.

GG, I may be way way off base here, and I realize you cannot get her to do anything, because she is the one in control, not you. Ironic isn't it? She accuses you of being controling but she has controled this whole thing.

Nevertheless, I think she has medical issues that have led to sleep issues, that have led to her seeking something very constant in her life and a fantasy OM living 3000 miles away who will talk with her all night is just the crutch she needs.

I don't think her friendship will end until she addresses whatever her medical issues are. She is afraid GG, very very afraid. That is what I sense in all of this. She is even afraid of losing you.

Just something to think about in your deliberations. I don't think the MB material will really work on her side of the equation if I am right, but it will help you.

I am torn. In someways I hope I am right because it would offer an explanation. In someways I hope I am wrong because the resolution is probably very difficult.

God Bless,

JL

GEORGIA:

I never got to the place where you are so I can't relate to it. I think if I had not gone into PLAN B I would have gotten there. That's why I am saying to you to PLAN on going that route first rather than thinking of D and just giving up.

I'm more of the mind of FOREVER on this. I coped by WAITING ON THE LORD and I had FAITH that HE WOULD PULL US THROUGH and HE did. So I LEANED ON THE EVERLASTING ARMS... You know how this goes with me.....

Also I'm noticing that your WW definitely is following the TYPICAL SCRIPT. Her PATTERN is NOT AT ALL different than my WH's. It seems that it is hard for you and others to believe me on this. All that you are saying he did. If I get too specific, folks might be able to figure out who we are. I will just generally say that he distanced himself from extremely important people in our lives during the A and since then. There are folks that we no longer interact with because of his isolation. I'm thinking that he will come around eventually...

I never came to the point of wanting a life without him regardless of all this. My marriage was not good for longer than 5 years. Looking back I would say we have lived unhappily for 10 years. I don't think he had another A but I'm not even sure.

I know now that through all of this that my M is better than before. Well, my R is as great as it was during our early years, the first 10 years that we were together. I feel a special closeness with my H that I have never felt with anyone else. I held on and followed these principles and trusted in the LORD...

What can I say?

Thank you all for your comemnts. I am listening.

I'm going to lunch (at parents house).

I'll be back.

Georgia

GG,

For your peace of mind, call SH just one more time and discuss all of this with him.

He's the pro, and you'll be able to look back years later regardless of the outcome and know you did all you could.

I agree with JL that your WW has major medical problems which should be part of your decision-making in all of this. I'm not sure what you can do about that though. It's part of the waiting game. Eventually, unfortunately, she will crash.

I also agree about the importance of talking to STEVE. He will put you on track. Are you concerned that he may say things that you don't want to hear, GEORGIA?

Sorry. You won't be able to slam the door on all of this and just walk away and start a new life. I'm sorry. It's just not going to happen. You will have to get some closure with WW one way or the other....

Are you trying to outrun your PAIN? It will catch up with you.

<small>[ January 20, 2005, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Just Learning:
<strong>

......Now, my degrees are not in medicine or any of the psych fields. But, I do know from military training that sleep deprivation can lead to very very psychotic people. Your W seems to me in that class right now......

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi, JL.

You probably came across my post to GG early on in the thread regarding similar concerns.

I had been debating posting additional concerns in regards to some of GG's recent posts.

Since you have posted this, I want to reiterate my concern.

I am in a close relationship with a person who suffers from severe bipolar disorder. GG's wife exhibits many characteristics that are observable in persons suffering from bipolar disorder.

It is no surprise that her behaviors are similar to any other person who is a recipient of 'PLAN B', however, there is the matter of 'amplitude' and some other observable differences.

I won't make a long post here, but I also believe that she needs immediate medical attention.

GG had mentioned that his father in law was willing to work with him on having her committed for observation. I would recommend that he strongly consider this option if she won't willingly commit to medical aid.

All the best,
Gimble

I'm for GEORGIA asking Steve about her medical condition.

GEORGIA:

It's me, being a BROKEN RECORD along with CSUE.

PLEASE SCHEDULE AN APPT. WITH STEVE HARLEY!!!!

Okay folks, appointment with SH Tuesday morning at 8:00 AM EST.

I have an appointment with my pastor at 9:30 AM tomorrow.

On the med issues, I know that she saw her OB/GYN within the past 2 weeks. Again, findings of that were only related from FIL. It has been my understanding that her actions do not rise to the level of "committable acts". Additionally, I know she spent considerable time right after Christmas with her BIL who is a counselor about to be granted his PhD. I would hope that he would be able to recognize first-hand these serious issues we are discussing. However, the only thing WW has relayed was that BIL said was she shouldn't call SH. I seriously doubt he said that, but that's what she heard.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You will have to get some closure with WW one way or the other.... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mimi - What do you mean by this? What is the "one way or the other"?

Thank you all for taking the time to share your thoughts.

Georgia

<small>[ January 20, 2005, 01:08 PM: Message edited by: Georgia Guy ]</small>

I thought you just might focus on my "one way or the other" comment.

In that entire communication, I was trying to stress my sense that you are trying to run from your pain. Running won't allow you to have closure. You have to go through the fire before you will be finished. Am I making sense?

It's the weirdest thing. You asked me about my M 5 years ago. A colleague of mine asked me to look around my office for something. I found my 2001 calendar that I must have hidden away for some reason, wanted to throw it away but decided to keep it.

I found record of a beach trip in MARCH 2001 which started me to wondering if my H was having an A. He had turned his cell off, didn't call me, supposedly was with his male friend. I immediately told myself, "of course not"... It's been a long hard road since then... but we've come out on the other side.

Somehow you have encouraged me to focus on the baby steps in the R between my H and YS. I also have had faith again in terms of their R. Guess what? They are home together today as our YS had to be brought home sick from school. My H is taking care of him. What do you say about this, Georgia? Do things happen for a reason? Do we have to sit back and let GOD take care of things? Do we sometimes need to get out of the way so that HE can do HIS work?

<small>[ January 20, 2005, 01:51 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Hi, Georgia.

I will leave you alone about the potential bipolar issue.

I think you have done a very commendable job with your wife.

All the best,
Gimble