Mimi and all ....

I have much to consider, you have all stated your thoughts very well. This is not something that I take lightly. Each fine point could be debated ad nausuem...but in the end I am going to have to be convinced that I am doing the right thing, whatever that may be. And...I have to be prepared to live with myself with that decision.

I will go back and read over every post (as I normally do), and I will continue in prayer regarding my situation. Almost makes me seem like a hypocrite to say such at thing, doesn't it?

I wish that I could put on my analytical hat and put a milestone in place that says we have now reached Point X, then act upon Point X by a predefined plan. But...this isn't management science and I can't do that. I am so used to backing up my position with data to buttress my decisions (in a professional environment) that I wish I could do the same here. Perhaps that is how a CA such as myself makes very hard decisions in a work environment, then falls apart when faced with any conflict in personal relationships.

However, this again is a decision that I will have to make. No matter what I decide, there will be folks here who will disagree. Hence, my CA will have to take a beating on this one. But...this decision ranks in the tops that I've ever had to make.

Georgia

Edit - Gimble, I appreciate your input. I have really, really thought that WW has some serious issues that are affecting her behavior, but I've got as far as I know how in getting those acted upon. I've talked to BIL some and told him of her behavior so he would know all this stuff. As she still trusts him (he's not condemned her), surely he is the best resource to direct her to needed help, whatever that may be.

<small>[ January 20, 2005, 03:12 PM: Message edited by: Georgia Guy ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Georgia Guy:
<strong>
Edit - Gimble, I appreciate your input. I have really, really thought that WW has some serious issues that are affecting her behavior, but I've got as far as I know how in getting those acted upon. I've talked to BIL some and told him of her behavior so he would know all this stuff. As she still trusts him (he's not condemned her), surely he is the best resource to direct her to needed help, whatever that may be. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi, Georgia.

I wasn't pouting :-)

I was actually trying to loosen your load a bit, you are carrying a rather large one. As such, you can only do what you can do. I really meant that I think you have done a great job. Your sons have a lot to admire.

Do watch your back. If she is bipolar, or psychotic, her ability to reason an action, once started, back to safe levels, would be impaired.

All the best!
Gimble

Georgia:

You will be in my thoughts and prayers as usual.

BTW, I'm glad that you scheduled an appt. with Steve! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

dble post

<small>[ January 20, 2005, 03:50 PM: Message edited by: CSue ]</small>

dble post

<small>[ January 20, 2005, 03:50 PM: Message edited by: CSue ]</small>

GG:

I still think that, if it were me (and it might be any time), I'd not jump directly 2 DV before doing a real plan B.

Can you afford a small apartment, and let her stay in the house and trust her 2 not take financial advantage of you? I know I could, in my case, if I had 2 get out. And if I were in such a daily-drama trauma si2ation like you've been describing, I'd get out. Then, I'd do that for a few months 2 let my head clear (and maybe hers as well) before making the next decision.

This BIL. He's getting his PhD and he's a counselor? A M counselor, perhaps? Does he know of Dr Harley? Would it be useful for him 2 know?

I don't really know the answer, just bandying some thoughts about.

-ol' 2long

GG,

What I'm about to say I am NOT suggesting, because I don't have the credentials to do so - but something to think about...

Your BIL would be familiar with this, although whether it's appropriate in your wife's case would be best decided by a professional unrelated to your wife.

A some point in the future it might be worthy to consider holding an "intervention" for your wife. Led by a professional it's where your MIL,FIL, BIL, your parents, your adult children and their spouses, her physician and anyone else who has a stake in your wife's wellbeing get together and lovingly confront her with her issues.

Not for the feint of heart, it's what families of addicts do in order to try and convince their loved one to seek help. Picking the right professional is key - and I'm not sure you're the best one to lead the process. But it might be something to consider before divorce.

Since your wife has alienated so many people who love her it might be what it takes to really get her attention. Think about it.

Georgia,

Another thing we have in common. I think my wh is bipolar-- this past year he has done some pretty extreme things. I thought maybe the ws behavior just mirrored some on the behavior of a bipolar.

Just my little input. Got to go pick up the kids.

Tdr

All -

I don't want to spend too much time on the BIL subject, but I've about come to the conclusion that he (as well as many MC's) are just a little, well...peculiar.

In all my conversations with him, the subject always comes back to "unresolved grief". In other words, we've all never properly grieved for the various deaths in our family, and that is at the root of all this. I'm sure he's a smart guy, but I've got real problems accepting that this is where we need to take this.

Georgia

GG:

When I've heard Cs use the "unresolved grief" argument, it's put in2 context:

In dealing with an A, the unresolved grief, on the WS' part, is not having made the "either/or" choice of who 2 be exclusively intimate and grieved the lost alternative.

We all make choices like that in our lives: Choices of where 2 live, where 2 work, who 2 marry. And we may not like saying g'bye 2 the alternatives, but we still need 2 do that.

I'm hoping that the BIL understands the applicability of that concept in his own sister's life.

-ol' 2long

2Long -

It may well be me who doesn't understand the "unresolved grief" stand. But, when he and I have discussed this, his take is that various family members haven't allowed themselves to properly grieve various family deaths. In order to deal with these deaths, people try to find fulfillment in various other avenues, such as A's.

At least, that's what I've understood when he's talked to me about it.

Georgia

You know I'm awful in terms of my thinking at night.

However, remember he's her brother and can't help but be biased. Ethically, he should not be one to diagnose her current diffiiculties.

In many ways your WW is not unlike other WSes. Her issues and behaviors are much like my FWH's. I tried to convince Steve H. that my H had emotional problems. He attributed most of it to the addictiveness of the A.

Where you WW seems different to me is that I think that she is physically ill and is using the OM as her antidepressant to deal with her body issues.

I really don't see her as being bipolar for many different reasons.

<small>[ January 20, 2005, 09:43 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Thanks, Mimi....

I guess the point that I was trying to make was that if there are basic and fairly easily discernible problems, her B should at least be astute enough to convince her to seek proper care.

He isn't objective, but she still trusts him and he has the knowledge to(maybe) still be able to help her.

Georgia

<small>[ January 21, 2005, 06:51 AM: Message edited by: Georgia Guy ]</small>

2Long - a couple of responses for you:


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Can you afford a small apartment, and let her stay in the house and trust her 2 not take financial advantage of you? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I could probably handle the apartment thing okay, but I certainly don't trust her not to take advantage. The reason SH chose the in-house Plan B was to avoid OM moving in and me footing all the bills for the love nest.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Does he know of Dr Harley? Would it be useful for him 2 know? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He does not know of SH and hasn't shown any interest in getting to know any more about him.

Georgia

Georgia,

I've been thinking about your situation.

Your concern about OM moving in could be addressed by gradually reducing the time you spend in the house and making your appearances at random times. If you had a little appartment to go to, you could roll the dice every night to see where you are going to stay.

At first, you would have to roll (at least <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) 6 to sleep in the appt. You would gradually, week-by-week reduce that to the point where if you rolled 2 or more you sleep in the appt. That way, she never knows when you will be home - and if she in any way fears a confrontation between you and OM in your house, she will not bring him there.

My read on your wife is that she is very fearful right now and it would take a while for her to figure out that it is "safe" for OM to come there.

... just a suggestion...

-AD

Good Morning, Georgia:

In the light of day, I agree with you that WW's B can determine whether she is bipolar/psychotic. I really don't think she is, though. She seems more out of control because of her involvement in the A in conjunction with your modified PLAN B. Regarding your WW's A, the B seems clueless. I have never, ever heard of his theory stating that unresolved grief issues account for As. That's bull crap! I know that's extreme language for me, BUT REALLY,GIVE ME A BREAK... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Hope you are doing better today and looking forward to a meditative weekend. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ January 21, 2005, 07:39 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Good Morning, Mimi...

Not to hold BIL too accountable, understand that I am related what I THINK he believes...confusion could be on my part.

I am looking forward to meeting with my pastor in 45 minutes. This is the 1st time we have talked (about this), only the assoc pastor and I have talked to this point.

It will be interesting to get his view. He is, how shall I say...extremely conservative.

I'll let you know.

Georgia

Edit - I am now pretty convinced (myself) that I've got to get out of the house somehow.

<small>[ January 21, 2005, 07:54 AM: Message edited by: Georgia Guy ]</small>

I'll be looking forward to hearing about your meeting.

Take Care.

GG,

I feel like a mother hen...don't leave the home until you've consulted with your attorney!! I don't want her to be able to use it as a legal advantage in any way!

Glad you're talking with your pastor, I'm looking forward to hearing what he has to say.

Georgia,

I hope you'll forgive me thinking aloud on your thread - while you are contemplating one of the most important decisions of your life.

AD's view of Plan B.

It seems to me that the concept of plan B is to say to your WS "All the love I have for you - and that you have seen in me during our relationship is still there.... but, I am not willing to give it to you now while you maintain relationship with this OP. I'm going to lock it up for you and save it for you behind this wall. I'm going to be behind this wall. Here's the key to unlock my love : Get rid of OP."

In response to that, your WS will attempt to go around the wall, climb over it, dig under it, find holes in it. They will try all of those things until they are absolutely sure that the key that you have given them, is the only way through that wall - the only way to get back into your love. Once they come to that realization, they have to weigh the question : Is your love worth more than their relationship with OP? (and other Q's related to their own pride). At that point, they either say "I want your love more than I want my relationship with OP" - and commit to NC with the OP - or they say "No, OP is more important to me".

You force that choice.

Then, if they say "OK, I'll go to NC", you bring them over to your side of the wall - and give them all your love - and meanwhile they will lose something they got from OP. Once again, they will try to find a way around, over, under, through to get back whatever they were getting from OP - and you may have to reinstate "the wall" (plan B) to show them that they really do have to choose - that your love will be withdrawn if they reestablish contact with OP. It may take several cycles to convince them that they really must choose and stick with their choice.

There are several factors which affect the timing of this.

1) How quickly your WS comes to accept that they must chose - that there is no way over, under, around, through the wall - except by the key that you gave them - NC with OP.

2) After NC, how quickly your WS comes to accept that there is no way back to OP that will allow them to keep your love also.

3) Pride - which may lead them to make a choice which is not in their best interest because they resent being forced to choose - and want to punish you for forcing them to choose. In a way, they have yet another choice, in that one side of the wall has their pride on it - and the other side of the wall has your love. So they have to choose to leave behind both Pride and the relationship with OP.

In your case - in the case of the "in-house plan B", I think the first time factor takes longer than it would otherwise take in a full-out Plan B - because your WS sees more possible openings in the wall - and spends more time exhausting the search for a way to recover your love without losing the relationship with OP.

But... that process is going forward, and if you have been consistent, your WS will conclude over time that there is no way to have both.

You may be very near that point. She is trying all the last desparate measures. I suspect that is what SH will tell you.

If she breaks and agrees to NC, I suspect you may have to go back into Plan B again - because she is a very persistent lady and likely will want to test you again. Once she is back on your side of the wall - enjoying your love, she likely will check to see if she can sneak back over to the other side and get something from OM. To make it easier for her to choose you, you have to give her all your love - without reservation as soon as she comes over to your side. But, at that point you have to be firm (as you have been throughout) and put the wall back up as soon as she reestablishes contact with OM. Consistency in this speeds the process which leads your WS to the realization that they must choose.

Is that the way you see it?

I wish you success,

-AD

<small>[ January 21, 2005, 11:30 AM: Message edited by: AD ]</small>