WOW!

AD, WHAT A GREAT POST!!!

I agree with you, wholeheartedly.

Aw Mimi <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Your kind words really warm my heart.

I'm just now figuring Plan B out - in case I have to use it.

-AD

AD - Where have you been hiding all this time? Man, that is fantastic. Makes sense...

Now, on to the situation with the pastor. First, let me preface this by saying that I am a member of one of the largest churches in our city. We have several thousand members, and it is a very conservative church. Whenever there is a need for commentary from a local conversative pastor, the local newspaper ALWAYS comes to our pastor as the voice of conservatism.

As you may recall, the current situation is OM#2. I was quite surprised how much he (the pastor) already knew about what was going on, but I was even more surprised at some of the things he told me about the situation with OM #1 which I didn’t know. He told me that OM#1 came to him long before that fateful day when I, along with WW, was called into the assoc pastor’s office after OM#1 had gone to him. Seems that OM#1 had tried to end it with WW, but she wouldn’t let go. He had changed his cell #, somehow she got it and called him anyway. He changed his e-mail address, somehow she got it and kept e-mailing him. Seems that #1OM was beginning to fear her as he felt as though he was being stalked by WW. Pastor asked if I’d ever seen that movie “Fatal Attraction”. He said it was kind of like that, she just couldn’t let go and he was afraid of her.

Now, he also knew quite a bit about the current situation, probably through the conversations the rest of the GG gang has had with assoc pastor. He believes that WW needs some serious psychological help, but that she is also cognizant of her decisions and knows what she is doing. He considers her current actions to rise to the level of Biblical adultery, and feels that the only reason they haven’t slept together is lack of opportunity.

He said in his 32 years of ministry, when a couple in crisis has reached a point such as this, he sees 2 things that must happen: 1- The WS must first be brought to a point that they understand that the status quo is unacceptable and a choice must be made, and 2- that the wrong choice has dire consequences.

Then he said, even though I wouldn’t want everyone to know I said this, I think your only recourse is to file for a divorce. Sometimes, when served with papers, the WS will be shocked into realizing that they are throwing away their whole life for someone they don’t even know. And, he says...that is what your wife is doing. She is throwing away her whole life and family that has loved her very much for someone she doesn’t even know. (BTW - Both boys served as youth minister interns under this pastor while in H.S.).

Then, he said he would bring her into his office, along with the assoc pastor, and talk with her about the decision she is faced with, and he would give her counsel to consider that her M is part of God’s plan for her life. He would also tell her that OM is part of Satan’s trick that will look great until she has him, and then she will be left holding nothing but a bag of misery.

Furthermore, if she refuses his counsel and chooses to continue the relationship with OM, she will be advised that he, as the pastor, cannot condone such activity within the local church and tell her she will have to leave the church. I related to him my concern that she needed her circle of Christian influence, etc. He said he understands that, and that any action he takes will be slow and deliberate, but that he as the pastor must take into consideration her actions and his responsibility would be to have her removed should she choose to continue.

So...that is where that conversation stands. I have talked to both of the boys this morning after our conversation. I am going to get away for the weekend and probably go to their home Monday night for prayer and consultation. I may even see if I can stay with #2S Sunday and Monday nights to stay dark right now. I just don’t need any more WW contact / confrontations at this point.

Right now, this is what I am thinking. I am likely to talk to the attorney about filing for a divorce and protecting assets and the house in some way that I can move out without risk. Then, I would extend the period between filing and a court date that would serve as the final, ultimate I really, really mean it Plan B. (AD - All the holes in the wall are plugged, only one key to the door).

I know that this isn’t in total agreement with what some of you think I should do, but this is what I feel is time for me to do. I hope you will at least respect my decision during this period. If I do otherwise at this point, it will only be because I (the CA) will be allowing some of you (whom I trust and respect as much as is humanly possible) to sway me from doing what I know is the right thing for me right now. Again, it can’t be debated and won, but you just have to trust that I know what is the right thing for me.

Georgia

<small>[ January 21, 2005, 12:35 PM: Message edited by: Georgia Guy ]</small>

I agree with the need for LEGAL SEPARATION. That's why I've been encouraging you to speak with the attorney. I became legally separated from my FWH during PLAN B.

I just didn't understand your quick leap to thinking about divorce. In my state, the couple has to be separated for a year prior to divorce. I think there are good reasons for that.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">her M is part of God’s plan for her life. He would also tell her that OM is part of Satan’s trick that will look great until she has him, and then she will be left holding nothing but a bag of misery.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know that I certainly agree with your pastor's viewpoint here!!

Again, I think AD's post is wonderful!!!!

OH, GEORGIA:

The stuff about OM#1 is significant. It certainly must be hurtful to you to learn about this today. I'm supportive of any decision that you make. You certainly have done all that you can do. You have gone above and beyond what many folks would do. I admire you for your efforts. Believe it or not you have given me strength. Really....

GG,

You did not ask for a poll but I think your plan is sound especially given the circumstances AND her behavior even with OM#1. Her issues are far deeper than "meeting needs" can address.

I know you said you liked things quantitative so I thought I would offer you some simple probablistic thinking for you to consider.

It seems to me you have two choices right now: stay or go.

If you stay two things may happen.

1. Somehow she will turn around and seek help and become the woman you married lo all those years ago.

2. She will not change and your life will be miserable and your marriage in name only.

If you leave three things could happen.

1. You will be miserable for the rest of your life because you lost the "love of your life".

OR

2. You will find great sorrow coupled with great relief and your life will move on with new friends, less stress and perhaps a new relationship. In short you will be much happier than you are.

OR

3. You will leave her and it will catalyze her to seek help, receive it and in fact come back to you seeking to rebuild or begin a new marriage. If that happens the logic tree branchs.

You have the choice of going or staying. But, with respect to her you have no control as to the later branches. It seems to me you have assess a probability to option #1 on each branch as well as realize that of the 5 total options 2 offer the restoration of your marriage.

This is not a mathematical proof. But you will have to search your heart and determine if the chances of her coming back from this outway the chances that she will not.

Your W is actually pretty much beyond the capabilities of this site or plan. However, you have done your best to plant seeds of love and forgiveness and the value of that cannot be measured nor can the impact of that be predicted.

GG you come across as a good man, doing your best for you W, yourself, and your kids. In an odd way, you cannot make a bad decision with respect to your honor or love. Most of this is out of your control. So please step back and realize while you would love not to have to make this decision, you cannot make a wrong one. It is not in your power to fix this with either decision.

God Bless,

JL

Cool, JL, fault tree analysis (FTA) applied to the situation. Now you're getting really, really close to where I live. I work frequently with mathematically probabilities of catastrophic failures of transport category aircraft (which, by the way, must be on the order of <10E-9).

Okay, enough of that.

I am feeling that I just need to step back from this for a bit and take it all in. I would ask that any and all continue to post, and I will read and digest. I'm not sure that I want to enter into a lot of discussion at this point. I may respond from time to time from a wifi hotspot just to let folks know I am reading posts, but I may not respond too much right now.

Again, I sincerely ask for the prayers of each of you. I still harbor no anger or wish to seek vengence for WW, just sadness that she is electing such a tragic course of action.

I consider you all my friends, I thank you for taking the time to care what is going on here.

Mimi....as we think alike, you understand how much your words mean to me.

Georgia

GG,

I can almost surely guess the aircraft you are talking about given your location. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> But, you know in a way this is not a "fault" tree analysis. It is really a situation where you cannot control the outcome. That is why you have a no lose/ no win situation thus you cannot make the "wrong" decision and be at "fault".

I hope you see this as you step back. So relax, pray on it, and you will know what the right decision is, even if you don't like it or it's alternative much.

God Bless,

JL

PS: This is how I conduct my research with this same "fault" tree thinking. However, I think see how complicated I can make be considering even more and stranger options. However, that is counter productive in your situation.

GG:

I hope you have a good weekend with pleasant distractions from thoughts of "what it all means" and "what 2 do".

After reading the above dialog, I agree that it's best not 2 involve the BIL in this anymore than he's willing 2 get involved of his own volition. He's 2 close 2 the problem, and 2 wet behind the ears (ask JL, a PhD needs a good Post-doc period, like an MD needs an internship, 2 be "worthy" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ).

Keep it simple (which it really is, though it isn't easy).

best,
-ol' 2long

GG, no one is going to "second guess" you. You have all the information at your disposable and it is your marriage.

I, for one, know exactly how you feel. I remember quite well the day, and the minute, that I decided our marriage was hopeless and told my wife to move out. So simply accept that you will be in my prayers for God's comfort and peace.

Also, GG, don't "underestimate" God's capability. Your Pastor sounds like he is giving your good counsel and is one who is likely to follow biblical church discipline. As I have said all along, your wife IS a believer who needs a "reminder" of where her first love and first obedience belong. AFTER that you may well, as I did, begin to see a miracle beginning to unfold before your eyes.

God bless (((((Carl))))).

P.S. Carl, if you can, let us know the time that your wife would be meeting with the Pastor. That would be a good time for a few of us to be in prayer.

Good Morning to all –

I will keep this pretty simple and short this morning. I spent the weekend on Hilton Head Island and spent a lot of time reflecting on who I am (really), where I am, and where I need to go next. A lot of time walking the beach. I was up at 5:30 AM Sunday and sat on the beach drinking coffee while watching the sunrise. It was very peaceful and beautiful. I remembered that #2S took his first steps on the beach of HHI with WW helping him. I have a photo of that momentous event, the 2 of them together. Things were so different then.

I attended church on HHI, then headed back to my home town Sunday afternoon. Yesterday was #1DIL’s birthday (25 y.o.), so I took her and #1S out to dinner last night. I had stopped on the way home and bought her a scrapbook kit and some “school” themed supplies. She’s into scrapbooking and Wednesday she begins her semester of student teaching.

#1S took the initiative this weekend to call our very, very close friends (D&J) in south Florida and tell them what was going on. He said they were very surprised, but that J commented that when we visited last summer, she noticed that WW had changed. Also, J said she would call WW this weekend and talk to her. This may or may not be significant, but it sure can’t hurt anything. J is a crisis intervention counselor for the local sheriff’s department with an undergraduate degree in psychology.

We talked some during dinner about the current situation, but not a lot. #1S told me he already knew about the thing with WW “stalking” #1OM, that the assoc pastor had told him that when they met. Also (unknown to me), #1OM was printing WW’s e-mails and taking them to the church staff while he was trying to get away from her. The church has a file on her with all of those e-mails in it. I’ve never read them and don’t know what they say. Perhaps that will be good to know in court. Also, #1S told me that the day several weeks ago that WW came looking for me, that he thought she could have gotten violent that day and if he wasn’t so much bigger than her, he would have been afraid of her.

I spent the night with #1S/DIL last night, I just didn’t feel that I could go back home right now. #2S/DIL came over for awhile and we just enjoyed all being together. I’m going back there tonight and spend some time with them just talking and in prayer.

That’s about all for now. Please keep us all in your prayers, tomorrow 8:00 AM is my appt with SH and 3:00 PM with the attorney.

Georgia

<small>[ January 24, 2005, 07:48 AM: Message edited by: Georgia Guy ]</small>

Will keep you in my thoughts and prayers.

I will be looking forward to hearing about what you learn and gather tomorrow.

Thank you, Mimi.

Also, thanks to 2Long, JL, and FH for your comments.

Re: the BIL issue. He has been in practice with a community couseling center for years doing MC, so he's not a rookie at this. Also, he has a BSEE and does software evaluation for a major auto manufacturer in his home state. Point is...he's a smart guy who should notice obvious things about WW.

FH - I'm not sure that I will even know when she is summoned by the pastor, but if I find out I'll advise so those of you who wish may pray at that time. I thank you for your supportive comments.

I hope to be able to get all the balls in the air around here today so I can take tomorrow off. I would like to spend the middle part of the day looking for an apartment or condo to rent. I know there are some gated apartment communities around town and I'm thinking that might be a good thing.

Georgia

Georgia:

I'm not trying to complicate matters for you. I feel for how difficult this all must be. I'm making reference to your plans to look at apartments. I can understand your desire to get out of your house. That's certainly what I ended up doing. The house had too many memories for me.

I just want to throw in:

Don't be surprised if the lawyer advises you not to leave. This is only from the legal perspective not taking into regard your emotions regarding this.

Also, isn't there a case in Surviving an Affair in which the BH helps his WW find an apartment? Might be worth reading .....

Good evening to all -

I've had a great evening with the S/DIL's tonight. We've spent hours talking and spent time in prayer together, they are all so kind and supportive. They are obviously troubled, but still maybe in a state of disbelief that Mom is actually doing this.

I've looked in the paper for apartments in the old, historic section of town. At least I might as well make this an adventure if I'm going to move out. I've got some highlighted to check on tomorrow between SH and lawyer appts.

I'll post how tomorrow goes tomorrow night.

Georgia

NOTE - The boys think I should change my member name to make it less conspicuous as to my identity in case of WW lurking. So, tomorrow I will change my member name to something like FGG (Former Georgia Guy). However, you can still call me Georiga on the posts.

<small>[ January 24, 2005, 11:01 PM: Message edited by: Georgia Guy ]</small>

<small>[ January 26, 2005, 08:24 AM: Message edited by: Georgia Guy - FGG ]</small>

Good Morning –

Yesterday was certainly an eventful day. There are a number of significant developments to discuss.

First, I met with SH at 8:00 AM. I feel there could be a great deal of danger in others attempting to construe SH’s guidance to me as somehow fitting and/or justifying their actions. SH’s guidance to me should in no way be considered as part of MB philosophy to be used to fit other situations without his direct guidance. To that end, let me just say that SH has advised me to proceed as planned.

Skipping to the end of the day, I met with the attorney at 3:00 PM. Of course, we went over the background of what is going on, talked about property and finances, etc. I was very impressed with his demeanor and calmness. I did recognize him as a member of my church once I saw him, and he cognized me. Some specific issues:

1. There is no problem with me moving out as long as I continue to pay the normal household bills. I cannot stop OM from coming here.

2. I should be setting up my own checking account and credit card, and try to cancel our joint card ASAP. He says WW is likely to try to pay her attorney with the CC, thereby having me pay for her attorney as well as mine.

3. As her car is not yet paid for, I should sell it before filing and either give her a paid for car or let her have mine (long ago paid for). This is to avoid me having to finish paying for that car after the divorce. He says the judge isn’t interested in the type or value of the car, it’s just that he likely will tell me to finish paying for her car so she can continue work.

4. I can take anything from the house that I want for my own use, but once papers are filed I shouldn’t sell anything. I am beginning to think of what furniture I want to take.

5. I must complete the financial summary sheet listing incomes, assets, liabilities, etc.

I will meet with him again next week with all paperwork and likely file at that time. Time frame will be at least 2 months, most likely 5-6 months.

I spent the time between SH and attorney looking at apartments. I looked at some apartment complexes, and they were okay. However, I checked the paper for “unusual” apartments and must say that I am excited about this one that I have found. It is ½ of the downstairs of a house over 100 years old in the very old part of town. It is a beautiful old house with a wrap around front porch (complete with swing), 11 foot ceilings, 2 fire places (in the apartment area). It has lots of large “wavy” glass windows. The owner is still working on the renovation and he said that any improvements that I make (paint and such) can be deducted from the rent (materials costs only). The big disadvantage is that I think it has probably never seen any insulation, so he admits it is hard to heat and cool. It has been rewired and has C H/A. Also, he will let me bring my dog (mini schnauzer), which by the way, the attorney said I can take with me if I wish (I’ll leave the poodle).

So, early next week I plan to move into this place. I’ve been staying with #1S the last 2 nights and don’t plan on going back home to sleep. I haven’t been there since last Friday morning and I’ve heard nothing from WW.

Make no mistake about it, this whole thing is very, very hard. I'm glad I'm back on the Lexapro, but it is still very hard to be doing this after so many years. #1S did tell me (after I ask him if he had heard anything I should know) that MIL talked to WW this weekend. Apparently WW saw a credit card charge from my visit to IL's house last weekend and called them to find out why I was there, what I said, etc. Anywya, #1S says that MIL told him she had bit her tongue all she could and she got on the phone with WW. Told her that she was sinning against God and her H, and that was about to lose her entire family. I don't know how she responded, if at all.

Anyway, that's the update for now. Please continue to pray for me / us, as this is a very, very hard road to travel.

Georgia

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> feel there could be a great deal of danger in others attempting to construe SH’s guidance to me as somehow fitting and/or justifying their actions. SH’s guidance to me should in no way be considered as part of MB philosophy to be used to fit other situations without his direct guidance. To that end, let me just say that SH has advised me to proceed as planned.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Georgia:

I don't mean to come across negatively during this most difficult period for you. However, to be honest, I am feeling sort of shut out and confused. Are you really saying that Steve Harley would suggest actions that are not part of the MB Philsophy? How does he justify that? Are you sure of that? That would certainly be a letdown to me. Would you be willing to say more about WHY? he is recommending your PLAN? I certainly would respect his viewpoint. I would love to learn more about this.

Mimi -

I don't mean to shut out anyone, especially you.

I don't word my statement well, his actions do not violate MB principles at all.

Meeting at 10:00, I'll be back with details.

Georgia

Okay, let's try this again.

Please read the entire sentence:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> SH’s guidance to me should in no way be considered as part of MB philosophy to be used to fit other situations without his direct guidance. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What I was trying to say is that this is not a one-size fits all. I DO NOT want anyone here ever looking at this and casually applying it to their situation without the direct involvement of SH. Does that make sense?

To use SH's phraseology yesterday, the patient has not responded to the medication as he would have anticipated. He was quite surprised that she has accepted being left out of family birthdays (both #1S and #1DIL) as well as Christmas. He quizzed me quite a bit about what the family did for Christmas, what she did, etc.

SH's term that he applied to her was that her "operating system" is so defective that she is going to need to be re-educated by someone with a realistic "operating system". Germaine to this whole discussion was the new revelations about #1OM, and how she continues (3 years later) to perceive this as nothing more than her jealous H botching her "friendship". The "re-educators" that he spoke of can be him, our pastor, or someone who is a close friend AND strong Chrisitan.

Back to the metaphor, he says it is time for "electroshock" therapy as a last ditch attempt to get her attention. He has warned me that she will likely to respond with significant anger, as well as more "bathroom" advances simultaneously. Anything to try to re-direct my thinking to be more in sync with her thinking.

Futhermore, he thinks this is being exacerbated by her lack of direct, physical contact with OM. Thereby allowing the continuation of her fantasy as she is never having the opportunity to see him as he really is, only as this perfect fantasy.

To put your mind at ease, I very directly asked if there were other courses of action that he would recomend in place of this. He was very clear in saying that he believes this the best and most appropriate course of action at this time.

Mimi...I think that the truth is (and I'm sure EVERYONE thinks this about their situation), that the tenacity of the actions of WW make my case somewhat unique. SH asked if WW has always been a somewhat stubborn woman who thinks she is always right. I think he hit the nail on the head with that assessment.

So, again, I NEVER want anyone to read this and think that "gee, my situation is a lot like GG's, so this is what I need to do too". That is the reason I have withheld some info, and will likely delete this post after you read it.

Your comments, please.

Georgia

Hi GEORGIA:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What I was trying to say is that this is not a one-size fits all. I DO NOT want anyone here ever looking at this and casually applying it to their situation without the direct involvement of SH. Does that make sense?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK. This makes a lot of sense. This is standard Steve H. He also did this in my situation. That's what makes getting counseling with him so special. He directly applies the MB Principles to the individual situation. I hope you are hearing and feeling my sign of relief! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I was needing my Steve H. fix and jealously did not want to be left out from obtaining more of his wisdom. Don't you just love how he puts things? His analogies and word use are WONDERFUL!! Thanks so much for sharing this with us.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> SH asked if WW has always been a somewhat stubborn woman who thinks she is always right. I think he hit the nail on the head with that assessment.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's interesting how you stress your WW's uniqueness. I think this denotes Steve Harley's special gift, being able to really understand and then fine tune for you a person's character and personality type. I was so amazed at how he was able to sort of typecast my FWH. I still don't understand how he knew him so well with such brief telephone contact.

IMHO, I don't think you should withhold info. that might help us learn and grow. What you are sharing is a lot more valuable wisdom than some folks on here are following. Folks on here can take care of themselves. What you have decided to do does not depart from MB Philosophy. You are continuing with PLAN B.

Rather than holding back, I wish you would share even more that you think may be relevant regarding Steve H.'s wisdom. I am gaining strength from even the little piece that you have shared.

Thanks again!!!!