Mimi -

I think I understand why FGG feels "used".

His WW lost the support and closeness of FGG, their sons and daughters-in-law and parents on both sides, yet she continued in her affair.

She did not start to comply with FGG's terms until he withdrew financial support.

It's probably a hurtful thing to think that you and your family are less important than money.

Yes?

Okay, Mimi. I just wrapped up a meeting and I can talk. First, the F/S stuff.

Actually, I don't understand how you could expect me to feel anyway BUT used. I have provided for her needs, and provided well if I may say so. Since the birth of #1S, she has only worked part time (that is, she hasn't had to have a full-time job since 1979). I don't regret that at all, and I have never indicated that this was any issue at all, and I was glad that I could do this. However, with what has been going on for so long with #1OM and #2OM, I do indeed feel that she has taken advantage of this, that I would provide for her, and treat her like a queen, while she formed relationships with OM. And, it goes deeper than just financial provisions. Remember how I planted a rose garden and she complained about the weeds? Remember how I would bring her fresh roses and breakfast in bed? Then, there was one of the last times we had SF when I got out of the shower to find her laying in bed talking to OM immediately afterwards. Sorry... I don't know where you're coming from saying that you don't understand why I feel used.

Help me understand how you think I should feel. (And yes... a bit angry at this point). And then on top of all this, the willingness to lose EVERYTHING EXCEPT (and a BIG EXCEPT) "STUFF".

Yes, Mimi...I feel very used.

However, there are comments about my plan that I think are pertinent...next post while you chew on this one.

Georgia

<small>[ February 08, 2005, 09:57 AM: Message edited by: Formerly G.G. ]</small>

Morgaine,

I see your point, but it's usually "tangible" losses that finally "clear the air" of fog.

Loss of her car, some of her favorite pieces of furniture, etc are hard to ignore even in heavy fog.

Especially since she has a part time job and couldn't hold on to her home, car, lifestyle without support from GG. It's very common in her situation.

Okay, now to what I have learned about ME and my Plan:

First, I have learned that I am a struggling Christian, not the model of moral superiority that maybe I modeled in raising 2 sons. I feel like I've been able to be "me", which has indeed been somewhat liberating.

I have learned that I have been a conflict avoider (wonder where I learned that?). That has now come to an end. If we do get into MC with SH, you can bet that WW will know that I feel very used and that fact WILL NOT be hidden or swept under the rug. I think my CA days (as are yours, Mimi) in large part behind me.

I have learned that I can, if I must, still maintain my relationship with God as a single man and not rely on the "safety" of a marriage. It's okay to do that.

I have come to realize that I can't be all things to WW, something that I shouldn't have tried so hard to do. She needs to be her own person, make her own mistakes, and take her own lumps. I think I have been guilty of treating her like the child of an overprotective parent and in doing so have produced a proverbial spoiled brat. This isn't me... I don't like doing this and I can't do that anymore.

So....have I been guilty of not really communicating my feelings to her, you may ask. The things above are things that I have had to get in touch with on my own, I think I can communicate those to her now. I couldn't before because I wasn't there yet.....Plan B did that for me.

Does that make sense?

Georgia

I do see what Mimi means when she states that the FS need is a legitimate need and not just being used. However, in this context, it is clear to me that this was the very intent of the statement. ["Mr. ATM"] It was very mocking in tone and not used in a respectful context.

Imagine a male snickering to his guy friends that at least his W "puts out." If I heard such a statement, I would think that the H is simply using his W and not sincere in his committment to his marriage.

I understand what you are feeling now, Georgia.

It sounds like you are feeling angry.

Can you get into a MB mode or do you want to anymore?

That would be, WHAT ENS OF YOUR WW's WERE YOU NOT MEETING? Are you now saying that she is the only one that contributed to this situation? Of course, I am not saying that what she has done is OK. It is never OK to have As. However, I do believe that Steve is listening to what she has to say about her ENs and will be asking you the same sorts of questions that I am asking you now.

Do you not buy this POV any longer? The Georgia I used to know was introspective in this regard. You don't sound like the Georgia I used to know.

I've got to run out. Will respond more to your post later.

I'm sorry, Georgia. I do have a middle-aged brain but I am not getting it. We have a disconnect somewhere.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She has bragged to #1S how peaceful the house is without Dad. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bull. She misses you. She is not going to tell your son the truth. We know she is in the fog and are not supposed to listen to what she is saying. MB 101: This is a lesson from the beginning. It would have been best to not even get such reports back from your sons.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She lost the R with her own kids, went through Christmas without her family, missed #1S's 25th birthday, missed #1DIL's 25th birthday, and accepted the loss of my parents as well as pretty much her own parents, all for the sake of OM. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WHEW! You said a lot here. First of all, she has not lost her R with her kids. They are trying to convince her to change and she does not like it. She wants their respect. I know FOGGY THINKING!!! All of this stuff she is doing is standard behavior for someone involved in an EA/LOVE AFFAIR as indicated by FYR's POSTS! None of this should be surprising to you. Also MB 101 on As: fantasized R, self-destructively giving everything up for this R which you think will save your life, its the answer to all your problems, the OM is her antidepressant. Sound familiar from our previous discussions?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> However, one week after losing her car, most of her money, and some furniture, she's on the phone with SH </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course, maybe she hit her bottom. Did you want her to do this differently, call you crying, begging you to take her back. Wasn't this the condition that you gave in your PLAN B letter? I didn't think she would even ever call Steve H. given my initial understanding of her. Remember, I had thought that this request was unreasonable of you. I amazed that she called him so quickly.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> it kinda puts a big cloud over my head. So...we will see where this all goes. I heard her and OM refer to me once as "Mr. ATM". Well, I'm not really too interested in that role anymore.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What do you mean by a "big cloud"? The "ATM" remark is more "fog talk". I had missed the part where you mentioned that she stated this to the OM. My FWH tells me that much of his conversation with the OW was BS. It's all part of their fantasy world. She had to see you as a bad guy to justify maintaining the R with him.

Could it be your actions have caused her to break out of the fog and begin to FACE REALITY.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">gave her the letter 2 months and 1 day ago yesterday. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are you saying that you wished that she had remained in the fog longer because now you are wanting out of the marriage?

These are some of my thoughts.

Mimi...

Do I not recall way back in the dark ages that you told me that your C/A tendencies contributed to your FWH's A? Seems like I recall you saying that you now realized that being a C/A was unhealthy, that this was something you had to learn for yourself and that in order to keep your R healthy you had to embrace conflict, not avoid it. I think you said conflict could be a tool to a deeper R.

That is what I am saying that I don't seem to be communicating to you. I think that the EN's of WW's that I wasn't meeting was because I was afraid to confront her. That led to a kind of Chamberlinian (I just invented that word) appeasement that just invited her to see how much more of me she could conquer without having to endure any conflict at all. I guess an excellent example of that was my acquiescing to the trip to Vancouver with her, and then her bit**ing on the way back home about how I wasn't kind enough to OM and didn't show him "respect". In one regard, this wasn't demonstrating "Honesty and Openness" (remember that?) in that I just kept my mouth shut rather than being H&O about the whole thing. Perhaps what you see now (that I gather you find disdainful) is about 5 years of C/A coming out all at once.

Listening to that was the "old Georgia". However, this monster that you have helped create (He's alive!!!) would now take her return ticket and tear it up and tell her to stay and respect OM all she wants.

So my contribution to this whole mess? My C/A tendencies that didn't contribute H&O about her actions. My loving actions toward her were well unintentioned, but not what she (or I) needed.

Am I communicating yet? Does this not embody the MB principles? I don't understand why you say that I'm not "accepting" them, I believe I am.

Georgia

<small>[ February 08, 2005, 12:18 PM: Message edited by: Formerly G.G. ]</small>

Hummm....we did one of those "cross-post" things.

Again, you ask hard questions. So, let me ask you a hard one.

Do you think WW wants her M (or me) for any reason other than financial security?

EDIT - All right, that is an unfair question. I know your answer already, so I'll withdraw it.

Let me answer one of yours instead.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Did you want her to do this differently, call you crying, begging you to take her back. Wasn't this the condition that you gave in your PLAN B letter? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, Mimi...I didn't want her to beg her way back home. I am angry (and hurt) that it was the loss of "stuff" that got through to her. Surely this makes sense, doesn't it?

Georgia

<small>[ February 08, 2005, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: Formerly G.G. ]</small>

FGG:

Being a prototypical CAer, I thought I'd comment on something you said:

"That led to a kind of Chamberlinian (I just invented that word) appeasement that just invited her to see how much more of me she could conquer without having to endure any conflict at all. "

I do the chamberlinian appeasement all the time. Did 14 years ago, probably contributed 2 the state of our M that led 2 the A because of it, and I do it every single day even now. Piss myself off daily as a result.

But you also are making an assumption about what SHE's doing *with* your Chamerlinianism (see? I can make up words 2! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) that I have also made, many many times. You're seeing malice where there is probably only mindless, foggy s2pidity. Sure, it's manipulative, but it probably isn't conscious.

-ol' 2long

Just like FYR told you, it's not about the car or the umbrella or any other stuff. How come you are holding on to that thought?

FGG:

Okay, SS may be busy at work or something, and I don't think he'd mind if I quoted what he said 2 me the other day, and it's pertinent to your remark:

"I am angry (and hurt) that it was the loss of "stuff" that got through to her. Surely this makes sense, doesn't it?"

Yes, it does make "sense", but is that enough? (and thankfully, you didn't call *me*, ol' 2long, "Shirley" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

so, here's SS' metaphor about quitting smoking, for your perusal:

"I once knew an English professor that taught me that it doesn't matter if you do something for the wrong reason or not, you still get the benifit of doing it. Quitting smoking is one of those things. When you quit, your lungs start to recover, no matter why you quit."

-ol' 2long

And...while I'm on this mindless rampage around my office kicking things and banging my head into the wall (not really), I referred back to the MB pages on the stages of infidelity. There I find this as the final stage (stage 4):

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But an issue that I have left for last is one that can ruin an otherwise stunning recovery -- resentment.

This topic is one of the most difficult topics to address in marriage. On the one hand, resentment is a normal reaction to someone who has caused you to go through unbearable pain. It is your emotion's way of warning you to avoid people who have hurt you in the past -- they may hurt you again in the future! But, on the other hand, resentment can also be an irrational reaction to something that is no longer a real threat. In fact, resentment itself may become a greater threat to your happiness than what it is you fear.

Those who have written me understand how damaging their feeling of resentment is to their happiness and to the future of their marriage. But they seem unable to stop it. It's a great subject for a psychologist, who is supposed to know how to help people control their emotions. But, I must admit, this is a tough one.

I have answers to some parts of the problem, but not all of them. So to help you as much as I can, I will lay the problem out to you and give my advice wherever I can.

The more there is to resent, the more difficult it is to overcome resentment.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Perhaps I need to go back and re-read some of this part. I think that probably what you (Mimi & Co.) are seeing is some real resentment on my part.

Good to know that MB has already discovered this and there may be hope yet.

Georgia

WHEW! Georgia:

You are more than embracing conflict right now.

I see you as being extremely angry in a way that does not seem helpful to you.

Please calm down. You are calling yourself a monster.

What is wrong, Georgia? Is there anything that you are not telling me.

PLEASE CALM DOWN.

FGG:

You're human. most of us are.

What you are realizing is what we all need 2 revisit from time 2 time, and that is that, while walking that narrow road on the high ground, the slippery slope is all around us all the way. Left or right, even back.

We all slip up a little. Sadly, resentment is waiting for those moments 2 grab hold of our thinking and take over.

Remember the poison metaphor?...


-ol' 2long

2LONG:

I'm loving your comments and your analogy about smoking. I am following your train of thought.

GEORGIA:

Your response is what has always made me so fearful of conflict. In fact, I am getting anxious now. You are calling it "disdain".

I have been striving towards trying to practice the "middle ground" between avoidance of conflict/anger and rampages like when I was about to "go do serious harm" (put nicely) to the OW.

What has helped my resentment is LEARNING ACCEPTANCE-IT IS WHAT IT IS. No amount of my raging or beating my head against the wall will change the fact that my FWH is prideful, wants to do things his own way, had an A with a PYT ("pretty young thing") CLEAN-UP WOMAN,etc. You are not there with me on this, I know.

However, I do feel that it will be helpful for you to CHILL OUT AND CALM DOWN!! This certainly is not good for your blood pressure.

<small>[ February 08, 2005, 01:17 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Well..I'm probably given you more of an erroneous impression about the amount of my anxiety right now. I'm really not THAT upset, but within about a 2 hour window yesterday I:

1. intercepted funds from a bounced check to an attorney that WW paid to divorce me.

2. got a call from SH that WW is "talking to him".

I'm getting whiplash.

I don't know if this even makes any sense at all, but the UNKNOWN (and maybe the fear thereof) is hard to take. Yesterday I was pulled in 2 completely different directions almost simultaneously.

BTW - I do plan on going to pottery class tonight, no matter what. I would be REALLY surprised if WW shows up there tongiht.

Okay, I'm calm.

Georgia

Hi, Georgia.

Your resentment of your wife's actions is completely normal - in the short term.

Congratulations on the 'wake up'. Facing your own humanness and failures resulting therein, is a monumental event.

The thing to do now to deal with the resentment should your wife return, is to make plans.

The plans should address her entitlement and it's causes (at least your contributions to it), then provide for a work-around, a kind of long term fix.

Here is what I would suggest for your wife.

She must take and hold a full time job.

She must contribute (ratio wise, depending on her salary) 50 percent of the family debts (mortgage, maintenance, car, etc).

Both of you must maintain separate bank accounts and contribute bill money to a joint account in the ratio calculated above.

If she wants something, then she must buy it. All loans for everything except mortgage should be separate. All credit cards and debt should be separate.

You must agree to never avoid conflict again, and provide proof by practice.

She must provide ongoing proof of her understanding of selfishness (entitlement) demonstrated to you in practical terms.

I know this will sound harsh, but there are boundaries you must create and observe, for your relationship to recover and survive. You will have to define them precisely for your relationship.

If you want to get a handle on resentment now, then start planning for your recovery now.

All the best,
Gimble

I'm not worried about Georgia......


I'm not.

Just look at his track record. The best indicator of future performance is past history. I think he will process the feelings he is having, and will make the best of the situation.

Sorry for talking about you like you aren't here - but I do think you will get through these feelings.

Resentment is a by product of being treated badly. I think all of us have it at some times, for similar reasons. It takes time to understand our feelings and work through them.

May I ask you ........what do you want to happen now?
That may help you process more quickly, and to focus on your long term goal.

I like 2long's smoking analogy too. Lets expand it.

It doesn't matter why the WS goes to NC. If they stay in NC long enough, it gives a couple a chance to work on the marriage.

Now, I know you worry about other factors. Why in the world did she feel a need to have two OM? We don't know.

If she is willing to work with SH, and if she will hold to NC, there is a chance to find out about these things, and heal your marriage.

Remember it's not your fault, I don't think Mimi, or anyone is saying that. I do think there are lots of factors, and it is looking like you may get a chance to find out what they are.

Often we forget that we have choices, just like the WS does.

You are free to choose what you will do now. No one will make you reconcile - it will be your choice. I suspect you will be careful to insure that recovery is the real thing before you would get back together with her. You have time to do that, and an excellant support system.

Now, the whole thing stinks, we agree with that, but the question is, what do you do now?

Depends on what you want -

What do you want?

SS

<small>[ February 08, 2005, 01:57 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

GIMBLE:

I agree with all of your conditions except the following. These are not a good idea for someone who has been in an A. Finances need to be an OPEN BOOK. There needs to be POJA. Couple needs to be working as a MARITAL TEAM.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Both of you must maintain separate bank accounts and contribute bill money to a joint account in the ratio calculated above.

If she wants something, then she must buy it. All loans for everything except mortgage should be separate. All credit cards and debt should be separate.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">GEORGIA:

Hopefully, you can express some of that anger and resentment in pottery class. Is there time allotted for throwing clay up against the wall?

<small>[ February 08, 2005, 01:55 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>