GG,

I too had enormous resentment...felt that my husband felt he could just waltz back into my life and I HAD to just be all smiles because he chose me!

Whew, I have vivid memories of particular times when I had angry outbursts, and disrespectful judgments....

Probably sound like a broken record, but SH helped me with resentment, and also with knowing that I had a personal recovery to heal, as well as the marital one.

At times I had to drop the focus of my marital recovery and put my head into personal recovery. SH supported me in this every time.

Point is...your feelings are normal, and you have much more to get over than I did.

Ah...last issue is CAing! The reason Mimi asked you about your plan is because she's giving you preview of coming attractions in your work with SH. One issue SH finds common is that one or both spouses is a CA. CSue here raising her hand as the CA in this family.

SH will deal with this head on. And whether or not you stay in this marriage, I know you know you need to work on this. SH had a warning for my husband that being married to a former CA is a little rocky in the beginning. Especially learning to not CA and not LB at the same time.

Now CAing is like lying on a bed of nails to me, becuase I know it was a huge factor in the decline of my marriage. I refuse to sink back into the subtle dishonesty of CAing anymore. Not me, paid the price already - hopefully won't have to keep learning that lesson.

Wow, I just checked the board again and there you all are.....I feel important!!

CSue, you have captured what I am trying to say:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now CAing is like lying on a bed of nails to me, becuase I know it was a huge factor in the decline of my marriage. I refuse to sink back into the subtle dishonesty of CAing anymore. Not me, paid the price already - hopefully won't have to keep learning that lesson.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are taking the words out of my mouth. I don't know yet how to find that middle ground between LB'ing and CA'ing, and perhaps my scales have tipped the other way right now. Know when I drove the stake through the heart of the CA'er? It was when I stood on that upstairs landing facing WW with that hammer in her hand and COMMANDING her to leave and take it back to the garage. I was looking her straight in the eyes when I did that, then I went into my room, locked the door, and cried. But...that was the first time I had really stood up to her. I think I could have held a funeral service for C.A. Georiga after that moment.

IF we get into serious reconciliation, I think she is going to be surprised. Many of the messages that she has left me on voice mails (that I've quickly deleted) were obviously manipulative and attempting to appeal to the CA'er who formerly lived in my body.

I suspect she doesn't know he has died. She should have suspected that when her nice car disappeared from the school parking lot.

And....as I continue on this tome of way too much analyzing, she may not WANT to live with a non-CA'er. She is well known to be opinionated, strong-willed, and stubborn. How will we fare together now? Remains to be seen.

Okay, I ramble. Mimi - we throw the clay against the table to remove air pockets and such. Tonight, I will throw it with vigor.

Whew...I feel mentally exhausted.

Georgia

FGG - In true conflict avoidance fashion, I'd like to respond to you at length, but I'm not going to. So let me just throw out some bullet points for you to ponder and mediate upon.

1. You have been used and abused. It's not fatal and we all "use" others from time too. It's part of our human nature.

2. You have a right to feel resentment, and THAT will actually the hardest hurdle to overcome should you and you wife eventually attempt to reconcile.

3. God commands YOU to love your wife, not her to love you. Mutual love will grow, as He promises, when you are both walking closer to Him in Christ-likeness and serving each other out of love and obedience.

4. If your "objective" is reconciliation, it's time you stop "bad mouthing" your wife.

5. Understand that the road you have chosen, separation and Plan B, MAY NOT result in her choosing to reconcile. A lot of "bad feelings" are going to accumulate on both sides. So WHO is going to humble themselves enough to LOVE despite the pain and abuse IF reconciliation presents as an option? Understand that it will begin like someone dipping their toe into the water before jumping in and getting acclimated.

6. As Christians, FGG, there is going to come a time when the two of you are going to NEED to be in joint Christian Marital Counseling, IF you are going to have a Christian marriage and recover from grievous wounds. Her starting with SH is a positive step, but ultimately her "obedience to God" despite anything that she might "feel" is going to be a primary issue that must be addressed.

7. Long ago I asked WHO was going to witness to her about God and His commands for her and for marriage. To date, I have seen little in other Christians coming alongside of her to help her study and understand God's teaching and her own position with God. They may be and you may simply not be writing much about it.

8. (((((FGG))))) I KNOW the things you are feeling and the thoughts that run through your head. It's NOT easy, FGG. To thine own self, and to God, be true. He will be with you.

God bless.

<small>[ February 08, 2005, 02:35 PM: Message edited by: ForeverHers ]</small>

hey SS, it was YOUR smoking analogy!

I just robbed you blind! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

FGG – I am sorry for the pain and anguish you are feeling right now. Let me hit a few things that I think are important..just from my viewpoint, mind you.

About this comment: “She has bragged to #1S how peaceful the house is without Dad”

Of course, it is more ‘peaceful’, but she actually used the wrong word – it was peaceful BEFORE you left. Heck, you were practically a prisoner in your own room although I understood why you were doing it. You weren’t making noises, yelling, going to see her. How much more peaceful could it get when it was already peaceful on the surface?? What she is saying is this “it is such a relief not to have to see your Dad or think about him being in his room with the door locked because now I don’t have to feel that ‘in-your-face’ guilt. I can continue my bad behavior without feeling pangs of remorse or have him around as a visual reminder that I shouldn’t be doing this”.

I was sooo relieved when my BS moved out. I could then do what I wanted, when I wanted without feeling guilty, right? I had let years and years of resentment build up until I had a full fledged raging case of entitlement going. By gosh, I was entitled to a little bit of happiness for a change. I had always been wife and Mommy…and what about me? For a change…something felt really good..and everyone was wanting to take it away! Well, h*ll no to that is how I used to feel. After my H left…I can’t tell you how ‘good’ I thought it felt. FGG – after time wore on, nothing felt good anymore. My OM was sometimes busy…so I couldn’t distract myself with getting into fights with my H. My H then got busy carving out a life for himself (which really made me mad by the way)…and when my kids started wanting to be with him rather than me…it began to get my attention. Man, I remember using that same word of 'peaceful' to describe how I felt after H moved out. I also used the word 'relieved'.

Keep in mind that this is in a situation where my #1 need is Financial Support and my H has almost never met this need and is unwilling to. So, besides the kids…which in one sick month I was ready to just ‘sign them over to him’ rather than be married to him one moment longer, there was no other big issue that would have made me even spend a second moment in considering staying with him…but at least there was an issue…one issue..and that was enough. I was so resentful and had such a huge list of issues against my H, that I was like a wild animal with a paw caught in a trap. That is the image that was often in my head. I would have gnawed that paw off just to get away from my H. Can you imagine, what a woman who has ALWAYS lived her life in large part for her kids…dedicated to her kids…how deep I had sunken into my addiction to the feelings the A was giving me to even contemplate for one second giving them up????

Time passed…H was no longer around to ‘blame’. OM and the fantasy bubble I had created started to dim and tarnish as all ill-gotten gains do at some point. Reality intruded. I started to feel lonely at night. I started to not feel comfortable about some things OM said and did. I started…to finally visualize what life might be without my H. I had no other big attractors pulling me back to my H besides the kids. I am the primary breadwinner, so financial support..or lack of it did not motivate me, but just think about how that would have added more consequences to the pile if he had been the financial support for me?

I was able to hold out/fight for my fantasy even longer because I needed no financial support, so I think it will only be good that Financial Support is one of her top EN’s. I think it is awful what she said and if she were the woman that you initially met and married, I don’t think she would have said it. This alien..she will stop at nothing right now to try to protect the fantasy you are endangering. It is like expecting rational behavior from someone on a high from drugs or drunk from alcohol. You can’t and shouldn’t. Does what she said hurt? Sure! It is wrong..and unfair…but you don’t have to condone or feel good about what she is doing. You have permission to hate the behavior. No one is saying that you shouldn’t feel bad about it. I would be furious….and then…move on. It is the moving on part that is important. It is ok to grieve…..My absolute favorite saying in the world (and I use it over and over again with my H) is that “Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die”. I used to chant that to myself and that verse about “I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me” (although I seriously think God has me confused with someone much stronger sometimes!).

The ironic thing is…I can soooo relate to the indignation (my word?) you may be feeling over the Mr. ATM and other associated references to just being needed for ‘financial support’. That is the ONLY reason I think my H is with me today! Sadly, I make about 3 times what he makes and I sometimes regret every single dollar of it because the start of me making more money was the start of the demise of our M. When I think about it too much, I become so very resentful, hurt, upset, angry..you name it, I’ve felt it. I want someone who wants to be with me and not because of my money. I want to be loved for me..not what I make. That is what I hear you saying? Is this close?

FGG – you deserve to be wanted for you..and the other things about you besides what you provide financially. The flip side is this – financial support…and in most typical situations it is the male who makes more than the female although this is changing to some degree – it is a KEY emotional need for almost any woman that I know. It usually ranks very close to the top if not at the very top. I have noticed that the more a woman ages, the more she has either been out of the work force (or is working part time), and/or how she feels about what she contributes to the M financially only increases the need for this EN to be met. My H never hears my EN for ‘financial support’ without taking it as an insult to him..and I never think about my H ‘using’ me as his financial support..and only staying with me because of that without feeling insulted. The funny thing is, this is just one EN out of many. What about the need for admiration. If we simply substituted one of the other EN words for ‘financial support’…then it takes a different slant. Are you with me on this one?

Think of it this way…what if she called you Mr. Admiration (meaning that you met her need for admiration..and you did it well). Sure, she and OM could sneeringly twist it into something negative by talking like you are a chump as in “yeah..Mr. Admiration…he keeps admiring you and saying nice things…but boy, are we pulling a fast one over on him or what?” Yes, being taken for a chump..or considered gullible is what would irritate me and hurt. But don’t let the ‘name’ of an EN be the thing that repels you totally. Let their attempts to pervert or twist you meeting this need be the thing that repels you.

I’m telling you now, at your wife’s age…the financial thing will be a HUGE attractor. Let it be the thing that leads/motivates her. I know it hurts – only time, distance, and refocusing yourself will help with that. Remember – we are just looking to break through the fog and see if we can eventually find your original W underneath all of it. No one would advocate you staying in an M, meeting her needs for financial support…even if she does initiate NC, if she doesn’t make some changes in herself.

We want an M for you that is radically different from the one you had before! Unfortunately, the burden is often unfairly placed on the BS to get a couple to recovery and for an unfair proportion of the early work (of course, they are also the only ones thinking rationally during these times). You are allowed and expected to have needs…and to be valued for yourself, but it will take a while to get her to that point. She values other things besides the money thing, she just cannot and will not think of that. Even if she does, she sure as heck isn’t going to tell you that right now. No one is advocating an M in which you are used just for financial support, please remember that. What we are trying to help you with is that you don’t get ‘stuck’ on a word..or even a feeling. Feelings are misleading even for BS’s..not just WS’s! Don’t let sick, addicted words uttered by a druggie (your wife in symbolic sense) keep a hold on you.

Go ahead and grieve, heck…hit your pillow with a tennis racket. Go run a few miles..and while you are at it, can you run some for me?? Don’t forget to repeat “it is not about the umbrella, or the car, or even just the money…it is about WW not like the consequences of her behavior…I will not let her take my power or divert me from my goal…I will keep my eyes focused on the prize”

(((FGG)))

Regards,

FYR

FYR:

YOU ARE SO WONDERFUL! I HANG ON EVERY WORD THAT YOU SAY!

When you finish up, my mouth is hanging wide open.......

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR POSTING HERE!!!

FGG

I am SOO understanding your feelings, in a way I feel that the only reason my WW stayed till she did was until she got a job after retiring from the military. I think at times that the $14K I paid for her to have cosmetic surgery in April was just a sham for OM. and at times I feel used for $ as well. But then I have to look back at the times when we didn't have so much, and I see that the W I fell in love with wasn't using me. I may have actually been using her, and conditioning her to be that way.

Regardless there was NEVER a valid reason for her to have the As. So I sit here, a few weeks behind you I think in the process, waiting for the custody to be settled so that I can go into Plan B, and save what little love I have left in case WW ever does wake up.

Hosea

FYR

I would love to have you give me your insight into my sitch. But not here, I don't want to threadjack. my story is in my signature.

Mimi,

You are so very sweet. You actually made me blush...

I almost laughed too...because I am always waiting for you to post to see what you have to say because I love how you get to the heart of the matter and how you stick with the people you post with through even the rough and confusing times.

What also impresses me is that you made it through that small novel I wrote!

Hosea - I would be happy to take a look at your situation. I may have to do it a little later today because I had a server go down so I am logged on from home trying to fix it. When I take a lunch break later today, I will try to read up on your sitch.

Regards,

FYR

Good Morning, All –

I must say, FYR that you have put into words some of the most insightful posts that I have ever seen. It is so obvious that you have been where WW is right now. I wonder if I could sit you on a couch next to her if you could break through to her? You said a lot of things that made a lot sense to me, I’ll go back and re-read many times.

Now, I know you all are going to be surprised at what I have to say next. I got back to the apartment about 4:45 yesterday, and I had just gone inside when I saw WW pull into the driveway. I don’t know how she found me. She came to the front door and I let her in (the dog was very glad to see her). We sat on the couch and talked for well over an hour.

I’m not sure where to start. She told me that on Monday she thought that SH was going to be the man who could save her M, but yesterday she spent about 2 ½ hours with him and now realizes that he has a scam going. His approach is a “canned” approach that he tells everyone and we need to see a therapist, as he is only a “coach”. I ask her if she had a follow-up with SH and she said that she was supposed to send me e-mail, but she decided to come in person instead. She said she doesn’t like communicating by e-mail and doesn’t like to be told what to say. However, she is supposed to ask me my plan for meeting her EN’s. I told her that I knew that I had not met all of her EN’s, and that if she and I could work with SH he could help me learn how to meet her needs. She said that if the MB plan works, then she should fall in love with SH as he is the one who would know how to meet her EN’s.

She said that since I had not been able to meet her EN’s for 28 years, why should she give up OM without be sure that I could meet her EN’s? I told her that as long as there was 3rd party involved, we would never be able to meet each others EN’s. I asked if she had discussed OM with SH. She said she had discussed it with him, but that SH is a Christian counselor so of course he is going to tell her that the OM relationship is inappropriate. Then she started in again about how OM can be my friend too, etc.

We talked quite a bit more about various things, but there was no change whatsoever in anything that I heard. She said that my moving out of the house was a LB’er and not part of the MB philosophy. She further said that she had asked SH if my actions were in keeping with MB principles and he said “no”. Something I find highly suspicious as he and I have discussed every step that I have taken.

Likewise, she said that #1S is in disagreement with my actions and I am endangering the entire family. Later last night I asked #1S about that and he was quite unhappy that Mom would say such a thing, that she knows that he is indeed in agreement with what I have done.

I asked her if she wasn’t troubled that EVERYONE is telling her that what she is doing is wrong. She said that we happen to live in a very culturally conservative part of the world and people here have been raised to believe such a relationship is wrong. However, that is not how God views it as He is accepting and loving and doesn’t condemn her the way her family has. Again, she stated how disappointed she is that she has raised such “judgmental” children.

Again, she says she wants to work on our M, but she will not give up OM. I told her that I had no intention of continuing in a marriage with OM involved. She is obviously very distraught and depressed, I feel very sorry for her and it hurts me to see her this way. However, I’m being invited back home for more of the same, which isn’t appealing to me right now. She brought up the thing about the cake, how she brought me my favorite cake and I wouldn’t even eat it. Also, she wanted to keep doing my laundry and I wouldn’t let her do that either.

So....I told her that it was time for me to go to pottery class and I didn’t want to miss it again this week. She asked why I wasn’t there last week and I told her that I knew she was there waiting on me. She said she went in and talked to my pottery teacher and told him what was going on. So...last night I went to him and told him that I understood that he had a visitor and just that there was more to the story than what he heard. He said he understood and I just left it at that.

There were other snippets from her that seem almost too trivial to talk about. My car doesn’t fit her as well as her car did, so her hands have been hurting this week. She’s been stressed by this whole thing so she’s having a lot of pain. Etc, etc, etc.....

Okay, nice folks....I’m awaiting input on what this all means.

I’m bruised and battered....but I’m still....

Georgia (and not nearly as angry today).

FYR - I just went back and re-read your posts. Man, that is so insightful. Seems to me like just a week or so ago I thought I was going to try to help you in your sitch, and now here you are for me.

Thank you so much for taking the time to write that posts. You and Mimi are a real tag-team blessing.

Georgia

I am sorry FGG

I think I underestimate the fog of WS's this even leaves me battered never mind you.

I have no input only HUGS

Georgia:

Do you know why you need to be hit with a zillion 2X4s?

Just wanted to ask you this before I post to you?

Who gave you permission to break PLAN B?

Edit:

BTW, she's one up on you now in the battle. You see, been there-done that.

THIS IS A LENGTHY FIGHT......

<small>[ February 09, 2005, 08:14 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

All right, normally I would just take the 2X4's and be done with it, however...

knowing that she counseled with SH yesterday, it seemed to me reasonable that she might be there for some legitimate reason.

I now know that she is just trying to stick her toe back into the door, so I have to shut it again. She asked me to join her for dinner after pottery, which I declined. She called my cell about 9:30 last night, and I deleted the message.

Okay, hit me if you wish...but I think under the circumstances it was a logical thing to do to talk to her.

Georgia

Hi GG, do you know when your pastor intended to speak with your W? It seems to me that about now would be an opportune time. No one else seems to be able to get through to her and she has strangely rationalized adultery as an acceptable Christian practice. [all on the basis that her "needs" were not being met]

I wonder if the pastor would have any influence in disabusing her of this notion or at least planting a seed? He can get away with saying things to her that you can't. Nor can she as easily dismiss him as she did SH.

I'm busy for awhile this morning.

Stop being so sensitive. I still luv ya. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Melody -

The pastor was to call her in for a conference after I had filed for the D. He had asked that I call him when I signed the papers.

All papers were completed last Friday, and I think the official filing is to be today. I go back to the lawyers office this afternoon at 4:00.

I'll call my pastor today and update him on the status.

Georgia

Georgia:

Actually, I so see myself in you and my FWH in your wife. It's interesting to consider why this is so. Is it because of our stages in life? Is it because we have had longterm marriages? Is it because our FWSes suffered from depression and used the OPs as their antidepressant? Is it because you and I are such CAs?

You are taking the same steps and making the same mistakes that I made and I wish I could step in and rescue you. I wish I could warn you. I find myself getting frustrated with you as the folks on here got frustrated with me. How can I talk, Georgia? I can go down in history as the ultimate PLAN B failure. SF with my WH in the middle of PLAN B. It was quite a memorable, steamy session, BTW. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

All of this said:

I was thinking of quoting her, making reference to her comments. However, in reconsidering, I think it's ALL JUST FOG TALK. Fog is so thick and so real, Georgia. My H continues to slip into it every now and then. I can see it happening. He starts to look and sound a bit crazy. It's almost laughable to me now.

She's is continuing to want to justify continuing in her A. FYR has captured this. Listen to FYR's words. The A is so addictive. Your WW does not want to give up that feeling and will go to any lengths to hold onto the feeling. That's what she is wanting, the high, not the OM. He is a non-person ( making reference to a previous conversation that I had with FYR).

I like it that you know that you need to GO DARK, COMPLETELY DARK, PITCH BLACK again. She now thinks that she can continue to cake-eat a bit more. She knows that you continue to care about her. You had almost convinced even me that you are finished with her. She knows and we all know that you are not.

It is important for her to think that you are ready to go on without her. That is one of the important keys to breaking the fog and causing her to feel pain. Unfortunately, she got relief from her pain yesterday. You probably feel better yourself by providing relief for her. MORTARMAN GOT SO FRUSTRATED WITH ME ABOUT THIS!!

Isn't it about ridding ourselves of conflict? Isn't it about trying to tie things up in pretty little packages? It was for me. I had to learn that sometimes it has to be messy and ugly and unpleasant for our loved ones. Your WW knows that you struggle with this. Just like my family knows that I struggle with this....

This will take TIME, PATIENCE AND STICKING TO THE PLAN!!

Am I making sense here?

GG, that is great! How do you think she will react to him?

Sheesh!

Talk about being in the dark!!! Who broke the website???

GG, I hope you have an appt with SH soon, or did you already? He needs to decode her for you, and you need a clarification to some of the things they discussed during their coaching.

Sounds to me like she's putting her spin on their conversation; for instance - seeing you in person vs. e-mailing you.

I wish she hadn't found where you live, and she had NO business talking to your pottery teacher. Where are her boundaries here? It's almost as if she's stalking you, willing to do anything to keep her fantasy alive.

I can understand why you met with her last night, but I agree with Mimi - the only thing left to say is "read the Plan B letter". NCNCNCNCNCNC or no marriage.

Peace to you

FGG – I wish I could sit next to your WW on a couch and thump her sometimes. Just kidding. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Your WW is persistent and determined. How in the world did she track you down? Is your town a very small one? I’m figuring your sons wouldn’t have said anything either so she potentially followed you, had you followed, or someone who knew told her. I am kind of disgruntled about that because I was wanting your place to be your shelter from her (which it still is) so I didn’t want her to know how to ‘find’ you. Oh well, that is just what it is right now so I'll stop grumbling about that.

My first thought when I read that you had let her in was “why, why, why is he doing this to himself?” Then I figured you were probably wanting to see if anything had changed (willingness to do NC, etc.) in light of the fact she had met with SH. I can understand this, and I’m sure you realize that the main mistake was in letting her get one little selfish, addicted toe over your threshold without clarifying whether she was agreeing to your conditions. She needed to wait outside like the visiting alien she is. Next time..and trust me, there will be a next time – have a Plan B letter handy to give to her. Open the door a crack and if she doesn’t indicate with the first few sentences out of her mouth that she DESERVES to be listened to further, then the door gets shut again. Remember, while it is logical to have a conversation with a non-alien (or someone who is willing to look at not being an alien anymore) at this point, it is not logical to have a convo with someone who is not willing to meet your conditions and this needs to be established BEFORE she comes in the door and not after.

She was testing you, FGG. She wanted to take some power back and she did. Not saying this to beat you up, but as Mortarman used to compare it to…it is like fighting a battle. Don’t invite the enemy in to make itself comfortable on your couch and tell you why you deserve to be beaten and just how many people think they are justified in beating you. I take it you work in the corporate world and you know as well as I do that there are many game playing/power struggle tactics people take with each other – invading personal space, ignoring requests, standing while someone is sitting, etc. You need to view your wife as the ‘opposite’ side of the battle. Her addiction is your enemy, but unfortunately that addiction is within your wife. The alien in your wife’s body is your ENEMY.

She is doing what many WS’s do and that is boundary testing (testing your Plan B)…to see if the BS really does mean this? Even though you may think that “well, I didn’t give in..I didn’t tell her I would accept the OM in our marriage…so I didn’t give her what she wanted”…she did get what she wanted and that is confirmation that you will still be ‘nice’ to her and let her in after you have done such a wonderful job of establishing protection for yourself. She verified she still has some power plus she was able to launch some pain your way with her statements. She is playing on your kindness and your memories of the old her. You need to confuse her some more so that she doesn’t receive the reaction she expects even if you feel it within you. The enemy invaded the perimeter of your camp and came away with key bits of info and also introduced chaos into your world (which was her goal).

There is something else I want to touch on and it is not something you really do to any extreme, but I have seen others do this..and I want to warn everyone about something that I think pertains to all WS’s – no one is going to respect or be attracted to anyone who doesn’t stand up to what a WS does to them! I’m not talking about being mean, ugly, disrespectful, or abusive – which thank the good Lord, you are NOT. However, part of the respect/attraction quotient is the fact that the BS’s NEED/MUST/HAVE TO stand firm behind their boundaries. Trust me, if you had opened that door just a crack and when you found out that she was still fog-bound, you had gently referred her back to Plan B and shut the door – she would have been sooooo mad…but better than that…she would have had a little part deep inside of her that respected that you stood up to her. People are attracted to people who are strong and who value themselves enough to say “I’m not going to take this anymore”. Trust me, a part of her she may not even be aware of is ATTRACTED to your show of strength (NOT your money) so of course she has to sabotage that feeling. I realize your motive for letting her in the door, you just weren’t aware of her motive for being there and you forgot momentarily that you can’t trust her motives or guess at them any more without consequences for yourself.

OK – WS fog deciphering time

1) WW – “I thought that SH was going to be the man who could save her M, but yesterday she spent about 2 ½ hours with him and now realizes that he has a scam going. His approach is a “canned” approach that he tells everyone and we need to see a therapist, as he is only a “coach”. I ask her if she had a follow-up with SH and she said that she was supposed to send me e-mail, but she decided to come in person instead. She said she doesn’t like communicating by e-mail and doesn’t like to be told what to say.”

Your WW is sadly mistaken, but all WS’ s are at the point where she is at. SH can’t ‘save’ her M if she is not willing for it to be saved, but he can help YOU notch up her exposure to her own consequences and work on plans so that maybe you can both help her get willing faster. I still see her crying out here for help – notice she said she THOUGHT that SH was going to be the MAN who could SAVE her M. Hhhmm…interesting that she wants her M saved. Now, we still have a MAJOR disconnect about the whole ‘open marriage’ thing, but she is on the cusp, and yes…I KNOW she is stubborn – she is going to fight tooth and nail to get back to her cake eating. She is STILL putting the burden for her behavior and for the salvation of the marriage on other people. She is still deep in her addiction and unfortunately, she is showing you that she still has NOT hit bottom..she has not suffered enough pain to become willing to do something different. As long as she hasn’t, she won’t. That is the bottom line. Your wife is also trying to jerk back control here – she showed up to re-establish not only power, but also control. One is not much good without the other.

2)“She said that if the MB plan works, then she should fall in love with SH as he is the one who would know how to meet her EN’s”

I have to tell you, this one made me bust out laughing. Someone KNOWING how to MEET EN’s doesn’t make anyone fall in love with someone – heck, the OM is playing her like a fiddle and she is trying to play you like one also. It is someone ACTUALLY meeting those EN’s that starts to engender those feelings of love. Shoot, my H knows how to meet my EN’s, but he doesn’t – so the knowledge doesn’t do me or him one bit of good. She is just messing with you with this statement. She is being sarcastic and also toying with you with that reply. This one wouldn’t have even merited a reply because her statement was a gauntlet and should be ignored. (hehe..you could have even babbled back that then you, FGG, should also be in love with SH by now if that holds true) Other interesting thing is that she is proving the reality of the whole EN theory - she has feelings of "love" (albeit based on no real thing) for OM PRECISELY because she has let him meet her EN's. If she were to let Steve meet her EN's, she would develop a crush on him to say the least. She intentionally skipped the point that it would be YOU meeting these EN's, not SH. The only reason she feels anything for OM is precisely because she is letting him do that which she is scoffing at here.


3)”She said that since I had not been able to meet her EN’s for 28 years, why should she give up OM without be sure that I could meet her EN’s? I told her that as long as there was 3rd party involved, we would never be able to meet each others EN’s. I asked if she had discussed OM with SH. She said she had discussed it with him, but that SH is a Christian counselor so of course he is going to tell her that the OM relationship is inappropriate. Then she started in again about how OM can be my friend too, etc.”

OK, maybe I need some input from Mimi or one of the other Plan B vets because I think in Plan B we are not supposed to focus on your wife too much, but I am wondering…and I can’t remember if you posted this before – has she EVER said what those EN’s were that you did not meet? This is just a point of curiosity here. The other hysterical point was her comment that "since Steve is a ‘Christian’ counselor, of course he wasn’t going to say it was appropriate." So, a few things here –

If she has the presence of mind to understand that ‘Christians’ would agree that her behavior is wrong – what is she saying she believes in anymore? Has she decided to ‘stop’ being a Christian? Has she embraced some sort of new age relativistic beliefs (as in “if it feels good, it is not wrong – no personal disrespect to anyone who holds New Age beliefs..I just am not one of them and FGG’s WW calls herself a Christian so that is why I am taking issue with it)? WS’s are good at taking their person belief system, religious/spiritual beliefs…or what have you, and broadening their definitions to miraculously include exemptions for their bad behavior. Again, to debate this would have been a no win situation. It will take your pastor at the old church or someone else calling her on this for her to even hear them even if she viciously fights them.

That comment about having raised “judgmental children”..HAH! Upright and moral children is what they are and she is recoiling from that like a possessed demon…or like a vampire when it sees a cross. I would LOVE to hear the pastor say “Mrs. FGG, if one of your daughter-in-laws (use DIL name who is married to son that Mrs. FGG has the most tender spot in her heart for right now) was doing this to your son..and saying that she wanted your son to accept another man into his marriage…and she wants him to be ok with it and your son came to you and said “Mom, this hurts so bad…I’m broken-hearted about XXX wanting to be with another man, but she won’t give him up..and she wants to be with us both..and have sex with us both and she says that it is biblically ok” LOL..your wife’s head would spin! She would be, in my opinion, heaping foul comments upon the offending DIL’s head and offering to drive son to nearest divorce attorney. Why is that? Why is it different? Because it puts the behavior she is embracing in a different context..and might get her attention even if she doesn’t show you that initially.

I’d be VERY interested in SH’s take on the whole thing. Heck, don’t know if it is appropriate – but I’m wondering if some sort of intervention would possibly be of benefit? She keeps pulling the family (and everyone else it appears) back into this thing – ask SH what he thinks about whole family (since your kids are adults) AND pastor meeting with her and sending a clear, concise message that “this is NOT about us taking Dad’s side, this is about our fundamental belief that what you are doing is WRONG. Nothing in the Bible and the beliefs you say you have allow for this in any form, shape, or fashion. We love you, but we will NOT support you in this”. Maybe interventions aren’t really used with marriages, but I’ve seen them successfully used with drug addicts and alcoholics and in a way – it is like a verbal Plan B. The family and some sort of 3rd party gets together and they get their beloved ‘addict’ in a room and let them know they love them…they care, but they are not going to sit by and watch any longer as they destroy themselves and hurt the family. Maybe it is totally inappropriate in this situation and should be run past SH because this is his area. While I wouldn’t call it Plan B, I would be interested in seeing your sons start protecting themselves from their Mom’s hurtful behaviors and conversation attempts also. Perhaps their boundaries could be established at an intervention or maybe SH has some other words of wisdom/plans for how to help them with this?

I’m just thinking that this might address this other fog bound comment from your WW – “She said that #1S is in disagreement with my actions and I am endangering the entire family. Later last night I asked #1S about that and he was quite unhappy that Mom would say such a thing, that she knows that he is indeed in agreement with what I have done”

We all know this is utter bull. Your son probably said something like “I am unhappy that Dad has been forced to have to do what he’s had to do and how this is hurting our entire family” along with other comments directly relating this to HER behavior, but do you notice how INCREDIBLY hard she is working at trying to justify this and make it ok with everyone? Why in the heck is she going to such lengths to talk to everyone…and babble this stuff? It is because deep inside, she KNOWS it is wrong. She keeps trying to shore up her own doubts by engaging all of you in right vs. wrong..or actually..what is ‘right’ for Mrs. FGG vs. wrong. If she’s so darn ok with it, why in the world work so hard to convince everyone else? Notice how she even tracked down and talked to your pottery teacher?? She is spinning out of control so so so fast! Let her keep going..but stay the heck away or you will be sucked into the pull of her gravitational black hole (she is a supermassive black hole right now..and will progress on from there).

4) “She said that my moving out of the house was a LB’er and not part of the MB philosophy. She further said that she had asked SH if my actions were in keeping with MB principles and he said “no”. “

Nope – she is twisting and perverting MB concepts to again, justify what she is doing. She doesn’t get it and even if she does, she is slyly twisting the concepts as another way to get at you. If it is so very right – then she should be dancing in the streets. Why talk to Steve, or pottery teacher…or the baker on the corner? She is a frantic little girl racing around to try and find someone who will agree with her. Notice that the agreement of herself and OM is not magically enough? Wonder why that is? And no, it is not just about the financial support. She doesn’t have to track down your pottery teacher and keep messing with sons – none of them support her fanny! Her happy fantasy is crumbling and she is frantic, frantic, frantic.

FGG – I know it hurts you to see her this way. It almost killed my parents to watch me during my teen years when I was in the grips of my addiction. I can’t imagine how hard it was for them to finally have to let go..and let me finish choosing my path which literally included DEATH! A parent’s worst nightmare!! They did everything they could possibly do, but almost everything they did only unknowingly ENABLED me to continue along my destructive path. Would it have been their fault if I died? Absolutely NOT! Can you imagine what they felt when I would disappear for days on end and they didn’t know if I was dead or alive? If they would ever see me come back home again? When I did come home – I raged and blamed, especially when they started setting boundaries!! Finally, they knew they could do no more to save me from myself.

You can do no more than you have done except for ONE MAJOR HUGE THING – don’t help her alleviate her suffering or her consequences even when you do it unknowingly. Talk to SH, perhaps he can think about considering an intermediary that your wife might be comfortable with approaching WHEN she is ready to agree to the Plan B conditions. I think your wife will try and keep engaging you, but like Mortarman says, when she comes out of her fog and is willing to try, there needs to be a clear path back. Conditions for contact may need to be clarified. Plan B letter may need to be resent.

5)”There were other snippets from her that seem almost too trivial to talk about. My car doesn’t fit her as well as her car did, so her hands have been hurting this week. She’s been stressed by this whole thing so she’s having a lot of pain.”

Good – any maybe now or eventually she will manage to make the incredible leap in thought that perhaps she might have something to do with where she is at right now. It can take a while..and in the case of very stubborn WS’s – it probably will. I don’t rejoice in her suffering, I rejoice that the suffering will eventually lead to a crossroads for her…a bottom..and a eventual decision.

In closing, I want to clarify something real quick…none of us expect you to get Plan B “right”..or “perfect”. I think this is an unrealistic expectation in light of the pain that BS’s are in, we just want to help you minimize the pain you are going through so that is why we keep giving you the gentle 2 x 4’s. We also want to see if we can help you minimize the length of your wife’s suffering in a healthy/good way and that is by not letting her continue to engage you in conversation. It is a no win situation for you both until she is ready.

Best Regards,

FYR

<small>[ February 09, 2005, 05:33 PM: Message edited by: FYR ]</small>