</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Edited to add - It's SH's job to explain to her and I'm sure he has, that your marriage has a chance only if she starts with NC of OM. He's quite clear with this from the start; however she seems to "spin" what is said by others when it doesn't meet her fogese! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">FGG, allow me to humbly disagree with this statement. Both you and your wife are Christians, though not acting like one. The "only" chance your marriage has IS for you both to be obedient to God's commands. AFTER that, other things like NC will result. Still too much attempting to "do things my way" and not enough simple surrender to our Lord and Savior.

FGG, marriage, and recovery of a marriage rocked by infidelity, BEGINS with humble obedience to God's commands, not somewhere else on the "To Do" list of "good things to do."

You need a caution too. YOU are beginning to like the "single life." Temptation comes in many forms, most usually "dressed up to look pretty." I'm going to caution you to remember YOUR marriage vows and the covenant you made with your wife and your Lord.

God bless.

<small>[ February 14, 2005, 05:36 AM: Message edited by: ForeverHers ]</small>

Good Morning, All -

Sorry I wasn't able to post anymore last night. I met #1S/DIL at a coffee shop after church and that is where I was when I posted.

I didn't get my dog back. I went by the house on the way back to the apartment and WW wasn't home yet. Yes, I could break in but I don't want to get into this confrontational mode.

It is incredible how bad WW looks. I know it hurt #1S to see his Mom this way. The only way I know how to describe it as that she looks like a drug addict. Her deameanor is one of a broken woman, but incredibly she still will not commit to NC with OM. Rather, she started this thing again with how he can be my friend, too. I told her that I never need to hear that phrase again, that I considering that sickening.

It is very, very hard seeing WW like this. DIL told me that #1S asked for prayer for his mom in church last night then broke down crying. I feel so sorry for him. I just don't understand the power that OM has over her, and why she can't see that he is destroying her life. I asked her that last night, and she said that it wasn't him that is destroying her life, it was her own decisions. Yet, she will not make the decision to end the R with OM.

Also, she says (which I don't believe) that SH told her that ending the R with OM would be a "process" and take time. I asked her if she was still working with SH, and she didn't give me a direct answer but rather launched into her critique of SH again.

SH told me that WW would do anything she could to knock me off my track. I'm now attempting to get back on track and get some peace back into my life (again). It was a pretty good weekend up until that point. Saturday was wonderful, I woke to the sun shining in those big windows and enjoyed just staying "home" all day and hanging mirrors and stuff like that. Washed the car...did "domestic" stuff.

Thanks, FH, for your input as well.

Georgia

Good Morning, Georgia:

I guess I can't refer to you as Ninja this morning. Where is your cape, Georgia? Oh, Georgia. What's going on?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ww came byagain tonight, again I was stupid enough to let her in. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You say this in such an offhand manner, calling yourself "stupid" but ask yourself "Why, oh why, are you doing this?" This is serious business, this PLAN B stuff. This is a war. You seem so blase about this. It is important for you to make a PLAN to insure that she does not do this again and that your remain DARK. We have had this conversation before too recently. WhAT IS GOING ON? Are you wanting to lose this battle for yourself, your sanity? She has now tainted your sanctuary. That would bother me. No emotion regarding this?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">but incredibly she still will not commit to NC with OM. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Georgia, WHAT IS GOING ON? Have you not been listening to us? MB 101 again with you? She is an alien, in the fog, addicted to the OM, therefore she will look like a drug addict, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, broken record here......

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i think that we can consider this over with </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have got to be kidding, Georgia! This has only begun.

I've got to go do some work stuff. I'll be back with you.

Don't get defensive on me. I still luv ya....

Okay, I promise not to get defensive on you. I know that I shouldn't have let her in, and I know that I shouldn't sit down and talk to her. I know all those things, it is just so hard to turn my back on her when she walks up and looks so terrible and sad.

It seems like #1S/DIL are better at this than I am. When she walked up, they both hugged her and told her that love her, then turned around and left. Why can't I do that? Perhaps my CA'er is still alive and well after all.

Yes, Mimi..it does both me that she has invaded my peaceful sanctuary. This time she took her time and went over ever corner of the place. Asked some general questions ("How old is this house") and some probing questions like she was trying to say "gotcha" ("Where did you get the curtains?"). The last visit she didn't even pay any attention to the place, this time it was almost like a cat trying to put her scent on every square inch of the place. Went to my closet and looked in the closet, looked in the bathroom, etc.

I don't know what kind of emotion you think I should have, but "numb" is the best one I can offer today. Not angry, not defensive, not hurt...just numb.

If I let her in again, please, please hit me with something bigger than a 2X4, maybe that big hammer that I confiscated.

Georgia

Speaking from a CAT-WOMAN's perspective, she knows that she still has her "hooks in you".

She has set you back IN YOUR PLAN even further. It certainly is not over. She has given herself some more time to play with the OM, knowing that you still care, that you are concerned about her, she has put her SCENT on your place, keeping OW away. WOW!!!!

Can this motivate you to stay DARK?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">she says (which I don't believe) that SH told her that ending the R with OM would be a "process" and take time </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ending the R will not take time but getting her to the point where she will do it will take time.

<small>[ February 14, 2005, 09:11 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Whew...thanks for not being too hard on me, I thought for sure I was going to get the Mimi big-stick beating again.

I don't say this to be defensive or trying to explain myself. I do still care about WW, I have loved her for a long, long time. It hurts ME so much to see her this way. But...I remember all those nights with her on the phone all night with OM. I remember leaving for work in the morning while she was on the phone, and coming home in the afternoon to find her on the phone. I know that as long as she can't commit to NC with OM, there is nothing I can do except be "Ninja" again.

Did it hurt you to see FWH's pain with the clean-up woman? Is the only way to protect yourself from the pain to have NC with WS while it is ongoing? (I guess I already know the answer to that, don't I?).

Georgia

<small>[ February 14, 2005, 09:38 AM: Message edited by: Formerly G.G. ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have loved her for a long, long time. It hurts ME so much to see her this way. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Believe me, I know EXACTLY how you are feeling. I may have already told you how I woke up every single morning reaching for him and worried about him. I used to see glimpses of him riding around in his car (he did't come to the house) and he looked awful. It really is like a drug addiction. They look crazed and weary.

I had to convince myself that PLAN B was the only way for a RECOVERY. It's like you seem to feel that either you or SH can force this. It is a process that she has to go through. She has to reach her bottom. She has to feel extreme pain. She cannot be rescued from this. Anytime that she receives relief that sets the process back. That's what she is seeking when she visits you-relief from her pain. My FWH would try to catch me at the health club, at the video store, etc. I think it was to see if I still cared. He knew that if he could look into my eyes that he could see the love still there. We have been together so long that he would have seen it. He would have seen my concern for him. That's the fix that your WW is receiving. There is electricity, sparks, bonds, between the two of you that no one can replace or erase.

I understand......

But you need to get back up on the horse, find your cape and ride back out into the sunset!!!!

Thanks for the input Mimi.

I know there isn't any easy answers, I wish there were. I guess when I see her I again want it all to go away quickly, and you've so many times warned me that it doesn't work that way.

I fear for her own safety when I see the way she looks and the pain she is going through. Did you ever think that FWH could be capable of suicide? I really think this a possibility with WW, but I don't know of anything I can do about it at this point. Anyone who disagrees with her (which is basically everyone dear to her) is rejected and scorned.

Okay, dark horse & cape...got it.

Georgia (Multiple graduate of remedial MB-101)

I identify with your sense of OVER-RESPONSIBILITY for your loved ones. Join with me in learning that it's our job now to primarily take care of ourselves. Sounds selfish doesn't it? However, it's healthy.

If, GOD forbid, she does suicide, it will not be your fault. She is a grown woman who has to take responsibility for herself. Even though my FWH did not suicide, his A and lots and lots of his behaviors associated with the A were self-destructive. I couldn't save him from himself as hard as I tried. Those were choices that he made that he now has to live with. I can live with myself knowing that I did all that I could personally do to take care of myself, our children and to try to recover our marriage. I trusted in the Lord and followed the MB System. I can live with myself. That's all that counts. He respects me for that now.

Being self-destructive is part of the WS script.....You've chosen to remove yourself from it for now. As the folks on here told me, now is the time for you to get strong so that you can be there for her to assist her in her healing, when that time comes......and I think it will.


HEIGH-HO SILVER!!!!!!!

Georgia,

Why in the world would your WW want to cease contact with OM?

She gets to come over to your house, see how you're doing, poke around, and satisfy her curiosity. She's crept into your pottery classes, she's crept into your home. She has no reason whatsoever to give up OM.

I'm serious - think about this. She has OM and she is NOT at risk of losing you. She's worked her way back into every aspect of your life.

Go dark. Let her learn what life w/o you is like. You're cheating her out of this very important discovery/awakening/lesson.

What you're doing is like telling a child "no you can't have candy before dinner" and then giving it to them anyway. What lesson are they learning? That you don't mean what you say. That you can be manipulated. That your boundaries are unimportant or nonexistent. That they can always get their way.

You're teaching her that if she stubbornly sticks to her guns (contact with OM) she will be rewarded.

Okay, seems like the consensus that we already knew is dark Plan B (again).

Mimi - we've got to have a serious talk about your mixing of metaphors. Am I to be Zorro, the Lone Ranger, or some Ninja-type? I really don't think the Lone Ranger is the right super hero for this situation at all.

Georgia

What's wrong with the Lone Ranger? I thinking in terms of Tonto-J/LO-Condi GODDESS!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Formerly G.G.:
<strong> Okay, seems like the consensus that we already knew is dark Plan B (again).

Georgia </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi, Georgia.

Do you remember the 'fire triangle' back in grade school?

Consider that Plan B is all about removing fuel from the triangle.

Every time your wife gets low on Georgia fuel, she comes stalking about you in order to get more fuel. When the fuel runs out, so will the fire.

Now, on a positive note. I have an activity for you. Since you are in the south now, have you ever been fishing?

I am not talking about bass fishing. That is a lot of fun, but the chase can leave the new initiate wanting for action.

I am talking about fishing for Bream (pronounced brim) with a fly rod. This is about the most fun you can have with your clothes on. It is a tremendous spirit lifter, and I have never failed to be out on a day when I couldn't get them to bite.

Some days, I have caught and released over 150.

What makes it so much fun is just how aggressively bream feed (bite). After you catch a few, you begin to get this stupid smile on your face, after an hour, you are laughing so hard that you can barely stand.

Consider asking around at work for people that like to fish, specifically fly fish, but not for trout, for bream. You will eventually find someone that knows this little secret about fly fishing for bream. You won't believe how their face will light up talking about it.

Have a good day!

Gimble

FGG, a somewhat lengthy post to you just got lost in cyberspace. I'll not duplicate it.

Suffice it to say that I am not of the "consensus."

If you care to discuss "why," I'll be happy to respond.

If not, let me simply leave you with some "food for thought" about this No Contact issue that is driving your actions.

WHY should your wife agree to No Contact? To please you or to please God? Who is going to explain the difference to her?

WHY should you be in No Contact with your wife? To please you or because you are being obedient to God and He commanded you to be thus in your role as Christian husband? It hurts? No kidding. Pain is NOT the issue, however. A willingness to die for your wife is.

Spiritual warfare is fought on many levels.

How many adulterers has Christ cut off as His bride AFTER they married Him?


God bless.

<small>[ February 15, 2005, 08:48 AM: Message edited by: AD ]</small>

Okay, do me a favor...let's not start that debate again on my thread. F/H, I respectfully disagree with your position.

Update for all....

I have received a LONG e-mail from WW (cc'd to SH), but not even a mention of OM in the whole thing. I'm going to respond and cc SH, but I will repeat my position on NC with OM.

Georgia

GG,

I respect what you are trying to do to save your marriage. Your thread is the first one I look for.

-AD

<small>[ February 15, 2005, 09:30 AM: Message edited by: AD ]</small>

No problem, AD...

Your comments were fine, I just didn't want it to get out of hand like I think it did the last time this came up.

Thanks for your comments, I appreciate what you say.

Georgia

GG,

My last post never made it, right before the website went down. Nothing important - just letting you know I'm in the grandstands cheering you on!

Finally.....I am happy to hear about the e-mail that your wife sent and cc'd SH!

That's a big leap from someone who insisted she would never coach with SH! And I'm glad you're willing to respond to her and cc SH. I wonder what the Plan B experts think about that because it's a form of communication and not being exactly dark! And since I don't have actual Plan B experience, I may not be correct in supporting even e-mail contact...

But my gut tells me that's the right thing for you to be doing because you're CCing SH. He'll certainly let you know if he wants you to continue participating in this way!! Could be this is a shade of gray that SH is so excellent at defining!

Personally I think it's a good thing to do !

FGG:

I suppose a lot of whether it was "appropriate" 2 answer her email while in plan B has 2 do with whether you saw signs in their that she might be moving more 2ward the middle here.

You say she didn't mention OM, but was she "strong" in her desire 2 work with you and SH 2ward recovery?

I'm no plan B expert either. In fact the opposite, probably. So it's possibly no surprise that I thought it good that you did what you did. Maybe it will encourage her 2 work with SH more. Just don't let yourself get jerked back in2 a position where you could be hurt more. It happens.

best,
-ol' 2long