AD, my experience has shown me that sometimes people who are in these states SEEM normal and are very functional. There is a nurse at the hospital where I work who is totally delusional but so set in getting what she wants that she has made herself " the Committee help..." and has convinced people and even institutions to make donations to this Committee of which she is the only member!!!
What is happening in her case is that her family cannot protect her and she goes to the hospital anyway in spite of not having a job there anymore. They probably don't make her take her meds either.

I haven't seen her around lately so maybe she got the help she needed.

So it is difficult to tell what is real and what isn't specially when they are talking to you , unless you can speak to their family members, work colleagues etc. It is a delicate situation, not at all easy to diagnose.

cc,

I'll take your word for it. I've got a sis who is in very bad shape and, because she is also very intellegent, it took a long time for people catch on that she has serious mental health problems.

-AD

Good Morning to all -

cc46 & AD - I appreciate the input from you both. As you may be aware, it has indeed occurred to me on a number of occassions that there may be some mental disorder issues coming into play here. Hence, my conversation with our PCP who said he would talk to her IF she would call, but I was unable to convince her that there was any reason to call him.

I have continued to hope that her best contact is her brother. He is intelligent, well-educated and has been a MC'er for years. I know that she has continued to talk with him, but I don't know the frequency or tone of the conversations. I DO KNOW that her interpretation of other's comments is totally unreliable, so she may not be processing what she is being told. Example: She now seems to be convinced that #1S is telling me that my actions are wrong, but discussing this with him he has no clue why she would say such a thing. Likewise, I suspect that some of her interpretation of SH's comments are skewed.

cc - I tend to think you may have some validity to your thoughts, but I am at a real lose as to what to do. I discussed this with my pastor, who believes that she is capable of rational thoughts and decision making. Of course, he isn't really that close to her.

She has started some sort of hormone therapy, but in yesterday's angry e-mail she started out by saying that it is "the pits" and making her sick. I only hope she will continue the dialog with her GYN to find something that will work.

I know that the blanket explanation for her actions is this "fog" issue, but I have to question if there isn't something even deeper here. As you may have notices, she is still insistent that the thing with OM#1, which ended 3 years ago, was all my fault.

I'm going to throw out a new, novel idea for any who wishes to discuss or comment.

During the height of when this issue with OM#2 (current OM) seemed to be getting WAY out of control, I would sometimes walk into the room where she was in the middle of the night. She would often have her head laying on her desk, with her headset on, sobbing. I could hear OM's voice just going on and on and on, nonstop. I could stand there for a long, long time and she wouldn't even know I was there. It's like he never even would stop talking long enough to take a breath.

I'm going to avoid using the phrase "brain wash". However, I suspect that he has "indoctrinated" her to the point that she has now adopted his worldview and thought processes. This may not be nearly as simple as I'm describing it. A minor example...WW has taken to calling me "materialistic", only wanting nice things. In days gone by, she would talk about how God had blessed us so and how nice it was that we could appeciate what He had given us...and so on. When I was in Vancouver, I couldn't help but notice when we were in public (with OM) that he oohed and aahed every nice car (like a Mercedes) that went by, kind of like a teenage boy, not a mature man. And, I must have heard a dozen comments from him about her T-bird. Back to the point, it is almost like she has adopted his value system, and totally discarded the "Judeo-Christian" principles that she has previously so dearly embraced. This idea also seems to have some merit with SH, as he has previously said that "her operating system is broken, and she's going to have to be re-educated by someone".

But...none of these thoughts lead me any closer to any solution, other than what I am already doing. Her last communications have been getting progressively more hostile towards me. I'm afraid she's also gotten hooked up with a rabid lawyer who is going to fan this flame for all it's worth. I am so glad I have the lawyer I do, a sincerely kind Christian man who I can pray with during our meetings.

Okay, a lot from me this morning. It is comforting to me to hear the thoughts of all, but the situation seems pretty much the same.

Georgia

<small>[ February 17, 2005, 07:44 AM: Message edited by: Formerly G.G. ]</small>

Good Morning, Ninja Georgia:

I am having an anxiety reaction to the Caren's drama last night. If you would check out her interaction with her WH last night, he would seem just like your WW. I think AD pretty much sums it up with this statement:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">These are not consistent with a person who is "out of it". I think she is a very proud lady, accustomed to getting her way, who is addicted to a relationship with OM. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Really, NINJA GEORGIA, my hand is shaking as I type this. We want to make out our WSes as being crazy. I did the same with my H. They are simply (for want of a better word) ADDICTED! I believe that is what makes them crazy.

Your WW reminds me so much of my H. He still craves ATTENTION AND AFFECTION. The OM gives her a fix 24/7 and she now is missing that from you. Being without you will make her look bad, Georgia. That is the pain that she is feeling. Just like when I was apart from my H during PLAN B, I wasn't eating or sleeping until I pulled myself together with support from folks on this site. She has been with you for most of her life. She does not know how to live without you.

I maybe simplifying a complex situation but I think what's needed is for you to STAY VIGILANT IN YOUR PLAN B and give it time. My FWH looked crazy and acted crazy. Now, out of the fog, he is really himself again but this process has taken over a year.

Enjoy your present life as best as you can. Remove yourself totally from her and what she is doing. Stop communications with your sons about her.

Perfect your PLAN B!!!!

Georgia,
I am so sorry for you because I can tell that it is a very difficult situation and I feel that it may be getting out of hand. The only thing I can think of is trying to get someone to be close to her with the specific purpose of finding out what her thoughts are, and her thinking processes. Of course you are not the person at this moment, but maybe one of your sons, a friend, or someone from the church (maybe the wife of the couple who were friends of both of you you mentioned once). Whoever it is must put aside his personal feelings about all this and concentrate on connecting with her. And try to get her to a professional.

I am always very wary of situations that may be misunderstood. if she does have a mental problem, the affair is actually a delusion and all this you are going thru is not helping. If she does have a mental problem it can probably be treated and she would go back to being the person she was.

All this sounds easy but getting the person to be diagnosed and treated is probably the most difficult and delicate part.

Sorry I can´t offer more help. I do remember you wondered once whether this could be her problem but since we are in an infidelity forum I guess we are sort of one track minded.

I will pray for both of you

GG -

I think your head is in the right place now. You see her for what her actions are showing. She is not the same woman you married and have loved for 27+ years. Her spiral downward can be the beginning of a journey for her to fix herself. Mimi is right about the addiction thing. My own addiction sent me on that journey 3+ years ago. I see people who are spiraling downward all the time. I try and help them if they want help, but I can't make the horse drink the water... Neither can you.

Do not 'soften' her fall by allowing her back into your life. Like Mimi said - Stay dark Ninja...

Blessings to you GG.

Gib

GG,

Again, I'm sorry for your situation. Sometimes on MB, it's easy to fire off posts without realizing the gravity of the situation.

I don't have much to say except a few comments on the brainwashing issue. These are just my opinions. I have no training in these matters, nor taken on any special study of them.

I would note that there was a OM #1, who presumably was a very different sort of man than OM #2. Whatever was going on in her head was going on before she got started with OM #2. So even if OM #2 is brainwashing her, that doesn't explain all. From what your pastor told you, I would think that OM #1 would be willing to talk to you, if you could stand that - and maybe you would get some more understanding of how that began.

Also, I think brainwashing works best on a person who is in crisis. In a crisis, a person is looking for a new foundation that will resolve the crisis. Brainwashing applied in that context finds fertile ground. It works great on teen-aged boys (such as Malvo the sniper, and numerous suicide bombers), but rarely works on a stable, mature person.

If she has been brainwashed, it is because she was already in a crisis which made her susceptible to it.

-AD

Mimi & Co. -

My decision is to continue with Plan B and really, really try to avoid any contact and/or communication with her in any way. It is almost unbearable this continual "maybe" that comes my way, only to prove fruitless in the end.

I tried to respond to her e-mail she cc'd to SH, thinking that maybe we were getting somewhere. All I got back was an angrier, more hostile e-mail with more "complaints" about me. So...it is dark time for me, no need in entering that endless debate.

In much the same way I've not been a perfect husband (as I am human), she has not been a perfect wife. However, none of her "imperfections" are the issue. She has been a great wife and mother, my only legitimate complaint is that she can't be faithful. That is what I can't live with, and I've tried to make very, very sure that she understands that.

I again continue to think that her brother, even though he and I have many philosophical differences, may be her best hope for seeing the lighthouse through the fog before she is totally shipwrecked.

So, fog bound? Mentally unstable? Demonically possessed? I don't know. Question is, do I respond any differently from my perspective. I don't think that I do.

Last thought, then I'll quit rambling. I was thinking the other night of the movie "The Days of Wine and Roses". I'll not go into details, but the story of how a young married woman gets trapped by alcohol and ends up losing her husband and kids. It reminds me so much of where I am right now. It lends a lot of credence to the "addiction" analogy. It is so, so sad. I'm just glad our kids are grown, that is what makes my situation any more bearable than more of the others I read of here on this board.

Thank you all for your input and comments.

Georgia

Ninja:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, fog bound? Mentally unstable? Demonically possessed? I don't know. Question is, do I respond any differently from my perspective. I don't think that I do. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm loving your mindset, here!

I'm going to check out DAYS OF WINE AND ROSES again. I love that Henry Mancini music!

Any more thought to the idea of talking with her brother and the OMW?

Good Morning, SHMI -

I really don't think that talking to OMW any more than I have already would be of any benefit. She is very, very submissive (cultural thing, I think), and it's just pointless).

Her brother and I have talked a couple of times. I know that over the Christmas holidays when WW was with her parents, she and her brother left for a whole day together. I KNOW that he must be adept enough to see what is going on. If not, there is nothing I can say that is going to change anything.

As much as I respect your input, I think that right now I am "hands-off" this whole thing with the exception of my continued prayer for her and "us". That is where I need to leave it for right now.

Mimi - If you can watch that movie right now, you're a stronger person than I. One of the last movies that WW and I saw together was "The Notebook". I think I probably embarrassed her I cried so much through that one. (I've really got to start watching more blood and guts "guy" movies).

Georgia

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Formerly G.G.:
<strong>
......
So, fog bound? Mentally unstable? Demonically possessed? I don't know. Question is, do I respond any differently from my perspective. I don't think that I do. ......

Georgia </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi, Georgia.

Since I was the first to raise the 'mental' flag, I want to let you know that I don't think that any response from you toward your wife will make any difference in her. She is going to hit the bottom of the tank no matter what you do, and it is not going to be pretty.

My initial concern, other than her condition, was that you not give up on her completely. IF and that is a strong 'IF' she can get diagnosed and medicated, then she will return to some semblance of normal, but fairly badly damaged. I am sorry.

I think that 'Plan B' is the right way for you to preserve any feeling for her. I also think that you have the right to call it quits anytime you like, and you are the ONLY ONE that can make that decision. No one here but you can say when enough is enough.

I also understand your concern about the "brain washing". She is having an affair with a person that definitely does NOT have her best interest at heart, regardless of what side of political correctness you come from. That makes *everything* he says suspect.

Please relax some, Georgia. You can only control what has been given to you to control. Your wife, and her actions, is not part of that control.

I wish I could come and take you fly fishing.

All the best,
Gimble

I think you would like MAN ON FIRE for the blood and guts and even vengeance thrill.

My H loved it. I hated it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I agree with your decision to try to completely distance yourself from anything that has to do with her right now. Guard your love for her somewhere in the back of your mind and heart. I know it's still there. Don't let it come out right now. Lock it away. You'll want to rescue her from her pain. She's got to really feel the pain.

I do feel that she is suffering from some sort of, at least, temporary insanity. However, a lot her actions show that she is "dealing with a full deck" in many regards. She's savvy enough to find you, contact SH, knows which "buttons to push" to get to you, etc. She is not psychotic and, believe me, I am able to diagnose this. Enough said about her.

Videos and music are a great escape route. What is the nature of your video and sound system at the new place?

Gimble,

(with appologies to GG for this tiny thread-jack.)

If you need somebody to teach fly-fishing, I'm ready! My total fishing experience could be less than 20 hours - all accumulated before the age of 16. The best of that was one night of bow-fishing. I was, unfortunately, the boatman and not the shooter. Great fun! (but the shooter kept complaining that I didn't paddle slowly enough.)

Seriously, email me mb11094@yahoo.com I need a new hobby. I need some new friends. I need to get outdoors. I don't know where you are, but I'm about 150 miles NW of GG.

(we now return to the regularly scheduled train-wreck)
-AD

More later on the video/sound stuff:

Here is a portion of my closing para in the e-mail that I did respond to (cc'd to SH):

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have no control over the choices you make, and you have chosen to continue your relationship with OM. However, I can control the choices that I make. For my own sanity, I cannot live in a marriage sharing my wife with another man. This is the state that I have lived in for over 5 years, and I choose not to continue with that life. However, you have made it very clear that you will continue your relationship with OM unless I "prove" myself. I don't believe this is the way marriage is intended. I think that at the time of the marriage vows, both partners consciously "forsake" all others. You and I disagree about that. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">More later....

Georgia

FGG, forgive my thread jack -

Quote by Gimble to FGG -

I wish I could come and take you fly fishing.


Gimble,
I have always wondered why people would fish for flys? I mean, what do you do when you catch one? The drum sticks are so small. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

SS

<small>[ February 17, 2005, 11:41 AM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by still seeking:
<strong> FGG, forgive my thread jack -

Gimble,
I have always wondered why people would fish for flys? I mean, what do you do when you catch one? The drum sticks are so small. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

SS </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">groan......you SO deserve a tomato for that one!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

2ble

<small>[ February 17, 2005, 11:43 AM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

A big, soft, juicy one! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

"The drum sticks are so small."

That's why they have SIX of them!

-ol' 2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by still seeking:
<strong> Gimble,
....
I have always wondered why people would fish for flys? I mean, what do you do when you catch one? The drum sticks are so small. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

SS </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can't believe that you don't know why!!

I thought everyone knew just how elusive and rare swimming flies are.

:-)
Gimble