Can't you tell I'm whispering? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

FGG:

Ah, chance versus divine intervention!

I think that the physical laws of the universe, even the "random" things that steer chance mutations in evolution (like flight in pterosaurs, birds, or bats), can be quite satisfactorially described as inspiring, even inspired. Certainly a wonder 2 behold.

-ol' 2long

2Long -

Do you hold any political offices? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Okay, I'll quit badgering you.

I'll return to discussions of M's going to Hades (and flying machines, if you wish).

Georgia

Georgia:

Is this a hangup with you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

2Long:

He thought I was Condi Rice!!

No, you misunderstood. I was making reference to (what I consider) 2Long's elusive answer to my question.

However, I think I better just quit before I get out debated.....

I'll stick with things I know something about.

Getting ready to depart, you all have a great weekend.

Thanks for keeping my company, all. I really appreciate the conversation and advice.

Georgia

Well,

This has been fun!! Mimi if you're Condi...well who would 2L be?

Hmmmm...I'll have to think about that one! I know he's ARNOLD!!!

AHNOLD???

Yecch! Though I did like him in the terminator movies.

I wish Gray Davis would get in2 acting. Maybe he could star in "Terminator 4" or something? Seein' as how Ahnold is tied up.

Politics, though? Not ol' 2long!

-ol' 2long.

<small>[ February 18, 2005, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

Hello, sorry for the mess you find yourself in. I just speed read your thread, my eyeballs are falling out. FYI, the Muslim Iranian man who is corresponding with your wife views both of you as inferior species, he does not respect your marriage, your wife, Christianity, any OTHER faith, or our country. Muslims do not convert to Christianity. Research through these links about the official Islamic stance toward dhimmis (anyone who is not a Muslim) and toward converts away from Islam.

Don’t however waste your time trying to educate your wife on this issue. You have enough on your plate. Stick to your Plan B and your coaching with Steve Harley.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/
http://jihadwatch.org/
http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/weblog.php
http://www.memri.org/saudiarabia.html
http://www.mideasttruth.com/forum/
http://www.anti-cair-net.org/

These are a tiny sample of what you can find on the web. Don't let it make you crazy. Your sitch is enough to do that! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Belle:

If it wasn't 2 make FGG crazy, what was it for?

-ol' 2long

mimi - what are you afraid of, that I might have something to say? Or that it might be different from what you are saying sometimes? sssshhh..."you know who" might be listening....

Yes, he might be...."I have been afraid that the burden of all this might be such that the family would need to "escape" by distancing themselves from me as well as WW. I know that this must be very hard on them.

Any thoughts about this from any of you?
"

Yes, I have thoughts about modeling Christ, but since we've decided to keep Christ out of the discussion.....what's the point.

I now return control of your computer screen to you. Do not adjust the horizontal. Do not adjust the vertical.....you are in the......

Back to the CA topics.....much easier.

P.S. Mimi, I have no desire to discuss evolutionism versus creationism since that might actually require believing and trusting God. So rest easy....I'm weaning myself off the system, hopefully by my anniversary. Adieu.

P.P.S Mimi, "Christian Prima Donna Goddess"??? Surely you don't view being a Christian in such a disgustingly self-centered way? Nevermind, I don't really need to know.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong> Belle:

If it wasn't 2 make FGG crazy, what was it for?

-ol' 2long </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2 long: Did you click on any of the links?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Bellevue:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong> Belle:

If it wasn't 2 make FGG crazy, what was it for?

-ol' 2long </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2 long: Did you click on any of the links? - okay, my give up, my give up. It WAS to make FGG crazy. I'm one of the Canadian-Iranian-Muslim guy's other Other Women. I confess, I'm on his side. [sobs pathetically]

But seriously, you MBers are doing a heck of a job with a hellish situation. And seriously, Mrs. FGG is in a dangerous situation. Mr. FGG is working as hard as any man could. And the rest of you - where else but at MB could he find such wisdom and support? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

CSUE:

I was reading back over some of my earlier comments and realized how helpful and comforting to me you were in the past. I am happy to get to chance to say how much I appreciate you....

FOREVER:

"Chill out" (as my sons would say). Lignten up. Sorry if you were offended.

On a serious note, REALLY:

"The Lord is my Shepherd, I shall not want......"

Take Good Care.

<small>[ February 19, 2005, 10:20 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Hi Belle:

I hope you don't think I was offended. I was confused though.

Problem is that, whether this particular muslim is dangerous 2 Mrs FGG's faith or not, he's dangerous 2 HER and her M. No 2uestion about it. And a BS in plan B is supposed 2 let the WS hit bottom on their own and pull their head out on their own. For their own good, first.

So it just doesn't help FGG 2 have 2 add "religious malice" 2 the mix, whether it's a genuine factor in this case or no.

Also, though I'm not aware of any, there might be muslims on MB.

There are certainly many flavors of Christianity, Judaism, even Buddism and other eastern religions are represented here.

And of course, ol' 2long's a "spiri2al atheist" or whatever label people would like 2 plant on my chest. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

-ol' 2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Formerly G.G.:
<strong> Good Morning to all -

Hummm....sounds like we could have a plan afoot. AD - incredibly enough, my first job (at 16 y.o.) was at the airport you reference. Also, that is where I learned to fly and got my P/P at 17. When I was dating WW (and she was GF), I used to take her flying out of that airport.

Okay, Gimble, AD and I are ready for instruction on the fly fishing. Ball's in your court. Is there a season to this thing, or can you do it year 'round? where are some good locations in our general part of the world?

Sounds like no P.D.G's allowed this trip.

Georgia </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry I missed this earlier.

Winter slows the fish down a bit, but that improves rapidly in early spring.

There are great places to fish all over, but I have some well know spots close by.

I am stuck until mid to late summer this year due to business demands, but I can sure put a trip together for then.

I will stay in touch about a trip. No pressure or obligation other than some potential for serious fun.

All the best,
Gimble

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "I was confused though."

You could be right, about not throwing the "religious malice" element into the mix. If the OM were of the same faith, same pew, the relationship would be dangerous.

If my post is offensive because of the religious and cultural references, if it is a negative and not helpful, I could edit it out.

"Problem is that, whether this particular muslim is dangerous 2 Mrs FGG's faith or not, he's dangerous 2 HER and her M."

Right. But I'm not even worried about her faith. I'm relating to this issue as a long time BS veteran of the emotional affair wars.

"So it just doesn't help FGG 2 have 2 add "religious malice" 2 the mix, whether it's a genuine factor in this case or no."

Okay. I am chastened. FGG does have enough to deal with and I appreciate your ability to be so pithy and succinct. Wish I could do that. Meaning, be brief.

[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

<small>[ February 20, 2005, 10:05 AM: Message edited by: Bellevue ]</small>

Good Morning, all -

WOW!!! I leave you kids alone for a weekend and you all start squabbling. I thought I taught you better than that!!

Okay, I want you ALL to kiss and make up. 2Long, you tell Belle you're sorry....and Mimi, you tell...oh well, never mind.

However, to address some of your thoughts.

Belle - To quote Alice Cooper, welcome to my nightmare. (However, is there room on the MB for another "Goddess"?).

Thank you for your thoughts on the Muslim issue. I've not read the links, but I do know the general idea of what you are trying to say. There are some thought that OM may have ulterior motives. They may just all be fanciful thoughts, but the idea of an American wife for U.S. citizenship is one that comes to mind. I had thought (and not sure I've totally discounted) the idea of financial support. Anyway, endless speculation along these lines is without much purpose.

In other news....

yesterday afternoon I talked to our friends in WPB for about 2 hours. Seems that "J" had been talking to WW already and knew we were having problems, but WW had failed to mention...OM. So, after I told them all the stuff going on, they went through the usual list of possibilities. Medical conditions? Mental instability? Satanic influcence? etc. Keep in mind that this couple has known us longer than anyone except our parents. We met them the first week we were married, and for 5 years were as close as friends can be. And...we've continued the friendship over the years from a distance.

After hearing the whole thing, "J" said "Well, this is obviously not the W that we know, there is something seriously wrong with her". She is going to call WW back and be more "aggressive" (her words) in her discussion with her now that she knows about OM. Keep in mind, "J" is a very strong Christian and crisis intervention counselor. I don't know if it will go anyhere or not.

Let me add this about the "danger" to WW's faith. Whether by design or not, the R with OM has basically destroyed WW's faith. What makes this so incidious is that she see it as actually building her faith, it's just all the rest of us haven't made it to this higher level of understanding that she has now achieved. Remember, we are all "judgemental" and "disrespectful". Is she in danger of renouncing her Christian faith for Islam? I don't think so. Is she in danger of not even recoginizing Biblical Christianity? I think she is already there. And...this is where I may differ with some other opinions expressed here...there is NOTHING that I can do about it at this point. Yes, I am the spiritual head of the house, but willing submission and "followship" is by "free choice". Again, I believe the "can't serve two masters" analog (God and money) is of benefit here. WW can't submit to the leadership of 2 H's. She has chosen the one she wishes to submit to, and it is within her perogative to do that. This is what, to me, is meant by "free will". She has consciously chosen. Did she choose wisely??? I don't think so, but it is still her choice. And...I can't intercede and make her choose otherwise, I can only FORCE her to make a choice, which is what I have done.

FH... I don't mean to offend you. It is obvious that you don't agree with my (and the MB) approach, and that is okay. However, please don't mistake this for "leaving Christ out of it". I think by now (I hope) that you know that I am not a SMO Christian. However, your interpretation of scripture and application to personal action and accountability is exactly that, your interpretation. It would be nice if things were so cut and dry that there were step-by-step directions to follow in cases like mine, but there isn't...no matter how hard we try to pretend there is.

So...don't get offended, feel free to offer your advice. However, please try to adopt the realization that it is ultimately me (FGG) that will be held personally accountable for MY decisions. Even the folks here who I consider my "inner circle" (okay, Mimi) know that I haven't always taken their advice, either.

Okay, that being said...there is work to be done.

Georgia

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">After hearing the whole thing, "J" said "Well, this is obviously not the W that we know, there is something seriously wrong with her". She is going to call WW back and be more "aggressive" (her words) in her discussion with her now that she knows about OM. Keep in mind, "J" is a very strong Christian and crisis intervention counselor. I don't know if it will go anyhere or not.

Let me add this about the "danger" to WW's faith. Whether by design or not, the R with OM has basically destroyed WW's faith. What makes this so incidious is that she see it as actually building her faith, it's just all the rest of us haven't made it to this higher level of understanding that she has now achieved. Remember, we are all "judgemental" and "disrespectful". Is she in danger of renouncing her Christian faith for Islam? I don't think so. Is she in danger of not even recoginizing Biblical Christianity? I think she is already there. And...this is where I may differ with some other opinions expressed here...there is NOTHING that I can do about it at this point. Yes, I am the spiritual head of the house, but willing submission and "followship" is by "free choice". Again, I believe the "can't serve two masters" analog (God and money) is of benefit here. WW can't submit to the leadership of 2 H's. She has chosen the one she wishes to submit to, and it is within her perogative to do that. This is what, to me, is meant by "free will". She has consciously chosen. Did she choose wisely??? I don't think so, but it is still her choice. And...I can't intercede and make her choose otherwise, I can only FORCE her to make a choice, which is what I have done.

FH... I don't mean to offend you. It is obvious that you don't agree with my (and the MB) approach, and that is okay. However, please don't mistake this for "leaving Christ out of it". I think by now (I hope) that you know that I am not a SMO Christian. However, your interpretation of scripture and application to personal action and accountability is exactly that, your interpretation. It would be nice if things were so cut and dry that there were step-by-step directions to follow in cases like mine, but there isn't...no matter how hard we try to pretend there is.

So...don't get offended, feel free to offer your advice. However, please try to adopt the realization that it is ultimately me (FGG) that will be held personally accountable for MY decisions. Even the folks here who I consider my "inner circle" (okay, Mimi) know that I haven't always taken their advice, either.

Okay, that being said...there is work to be done.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">FGG – I am not offended, and I do realize that it IS YOU who are responsible for your decisions, right or wrong, to God….not to me or anyone else. I don’t understand the initials “SMO” so I don’t know how to respond to that designation.

FGG, you need to understand, since it seems that you have a misunderstanding in this area (that I don’t believe in MB principles, or at least in “Plan B” principles), you are quite wrong IF that is actually what you believe. I DO believe in the proper application of MB principles as being helpful of recovering marriages, not just “Christian marriages.” Again, they are not a “step by step” roadmap that ensures recovery either. They are an outline of steps that MAY result in recovery, but ultimately it is in how they are applied to any given situation and how the husband and wife respond and choose, that enhances or detracts from their effectiveness and whether or not a marriage riven asunder by infidelity CAN or WILL recover.

I DO believe that you have done a dismal job of a “real Plan B” so far and I DO believe that “plan B” does NOT negate your responsibility as head of household to be the “spiritual leader.” Understand that being that leader does NOT mean that you, yourself, must “have all the answers” or “be the one to counsel and/or instruct” your wife. It does mean that you are responsible for making that available to your wife. Hence, my question that kept being ignored: “If not you, then WHO?”

FGG, I am THRILLED to read about “J” and that she will be speaking with and providing Christian counsel to your wife. The same holds true for the past mentioned references to the “Pastor” speaking with your wife (though it was never made clear if such a loving confrontation between the pastor and your wife ever took place).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Let me add this about the "danger" to WW's faith. Whether by design or not, the R with OM has basically destroyed WW's faith. What makes this so incidious is that she see it as actually building her faith, it's just all the rest of us haven't made it to this higher level of understanding that she has now achieved. Remember, we are all "judgemental" and "disrespectful". Is she in danger of renouncing her Christian faith for Islam? I don't think so. Is she in danger of not even recoginizing Biblical Christianity? I think she is already there. And...this is where I may differ with some other opinions expressed here...there is NOTHING that I can do about it at this point. Yes, I am the spiritual head of the house, but willing submission and "followship" is by "free choice". Again, I believe the "can't serve two masters" analog (God and money) is of benefit here. WW can't submit to the leadership of 2 H's. She has chosen the one she wishes to submit to, and it is within her perogative to do that. This is what, to me, is meant by "free will". She has consciously chosen. Did she choose wisely??? I don't think so, but it is still her choice. And...I can't intercede and make her choose otherwise, I can only FORCE her to make a choice, which is what I have done.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">FGG, we have no real disagreement here. This is precisely WHY I’ve been advocating that SOMEONE needs to be talking to your wife about Scripture and God’s clearly revealed commands and teaching. The point I have been making is precisely what you are saying here, she has chosen the OM and his views, she has chosen her “feelings” over obedience to God’s commands, she has chosen to place the “great commission” as an excuse or justification for her to commit sin to accomplish the “greater good” of spreading the Good News.

FGG, my point has been all along twofold. One, that YOU are obedient to God’s commands and not letting your own emotions and hurts push you into impatience and committing sins yourself; and Two, that SOMEONE has to be speaking with your wife about God’s clear commands and how one command cannot be used to “negate” other commands of God. EVEN IF you have chosen to go “completely dark” in response to her failure to “honor and respect and obey” your leadership in the home as commanded by God.

FGG, yes, what I have been saying IS my interpretation. However, I will stand on the Scripture and ask that Scripture be used to support or negate my “opinion.” I would ask the same measure be used for your choices and for the opinions of others that you choose to embrace for your current situation.

This IS because YOU are a believer, with Jesus Christ as your chosen Savior and LORD.

This IS because YOU are a brother in Christ, not because of any “ill will” or jealousy about whose “advice” you choose to accept or who you choose to let into your “inner circle.”

This IS because I have a genuine concern and burden for your wife’s soul, her relationship with God, and have the same concern and burden for you and your marriage. Our emotions ARE very powerful and we DO react in response to them a lot. But we also know that emotions lie to us a lot, they are NOT an accurate barometer of what is “right or wrong” in response to God’s commands. OBEDIENCE , regardless of “feelings,” is the “barometer” that God wants from all who claim Him as their LORD.

I almost did, but chose not to, a review of your entire thread. So all I will “toss out” right now for your consideration is that from very early in your posting (going back to the late Oct. /early Nov. timeframe) you were seriously going down the mental route of leaving your wife and were looking for support for that “choice.”

Plan A? How long? Plan B? To punish or to truly help her face her choices? No judgment there, just questions for thought and consideration.

FGG, believe me when I say this, if you believe nothing else that I might write or have written, I KNOW the pain, anguish, and thoughts that may well be running through your head as you contemplate your marriage to a woman who is a Christian, yet is lost in the entanglement of a sinful direction.

HOW COULD SHE?
WHY WOULD SHE?
ALLOWED TO HAPPEN BY GOD FOR WHAT REASON?
WHAT COULD I HAVE DONE DIFFERENTLY?
HOW CAN I TRUST MY OWN JUDGMENT WHEN I WAS SO WRONG ABOUT WHAT I BELIEVED ABOUT MY WIFE?
WHAT’S THE USE?!?
WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO BE THE ONE TO BE “STRONG” AND ENDURE THE PAIN?!?

ETC., list goes on and on…..

FGG, there ARE answers to all of those questions, and they are found in the Scripture. But we have to listen to them and choose to accept them into our lives. That’s also why the 10 Commandments have not only the command, but they also have the promise that goes with obedience.

God bless.

Hi FGG,

I've never posted to you before, but I've followed all 83 pages of your saga since the first day. In fact, I often find myself wishing you would hurry up and clear up your marital issues so I can finally stop checking up on you and lurking on this site! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

No Seriously, the only reason I did not post to you is because I do not consider myself experienced enough and you are already getting super advise. Also, I really admire the way you have handeled the whole situation, your sons and daughters-in-law, and I whole-heartedly support you.

Anyway, I don't want to threadjack, but I just wanted to say that I think Bellevue's attitudes to muslims are offensive and extremely limited. I am a muslim man who is together with a protestant woman since almost 11 years. During this whole period, religeon has never been an issue for us. If and when we have kids we hope to expose to them to both religeons and let them make their own choices when they are of age. I frankly do not care if my children are muslim, christian, buddhist, jewish, wican, or aethists as long as they turn out to be honest, ethical, upstanding members of thier communities. The links Bellevue has posted are akin to me posting links to the KKK website in order to demonstrate mainstream Christian thinking, or posting links to anti-semetic sites in order to demonstrate how "evil" the jews are. In my opinion such sites only serve to demonstrate the hatefulness and ignorance of the people who create and subscribe to them.

As one man of faith to another, I admire how you have used your faith to support and guide you through this ordeal, and I sincerely hope that you do not let this episode negatively influence your view of the +3 billion muslims on this planet. The danger of such generalizations has already been evidenced by the holocaust, and I hope it is never repeated against any race, creed or religeon. Lest Bellevue would like to say something regarding the recent Islamic terrorist activity or the Isreali-Arab situation, I would just like to respectfully point out that of the six million jews that were killed during WWII, not one was killed by a muslim.

Sorry again for the threadjack FGG, its just that as one of the few muslims at MB I felt I had to comment.

Hang in there bro and good luck.

Good Morning, GG:

I am happy for you that you have maintained your Ninja mindset over the weekend.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I will say that I have not been able to understand why Forever seems to get so angry with me. Forever, if you are listening, I am not saying this in secret. You seem hostile towards me and it hurts my feelings...especially since I strongly share your Christian belief system...

Georgia, you know how anxious I am about someone being angry at me......