FH -

Of the long list of questions you pose at the end of your post, the only one I truly stuggle with is "What could I have done differently?". Otherwise, I am extremely sad for WW, not angry or in any kind of "How could she?" sort of mentality. I think that she opened herself to temptation (what SH has said is exposing her EN's in an inappropriate place) and has gotten swallowed up by her fall. I think it very, very sad. I don't question God about this. I don't put myself in the place of Job. I almost see her as a weak swimmer who jumped into water too deep for her. I held onto her as long as I could and tried to rescue her, but it was obvious that she was going to drag me under with her. It is very painful to have to watch her drown from the safety of shore. Does that make sense?

Hi Curious - Thanks for jumping in, and for following along. No, this incident hasn't prejuidiced me against all Muslims. I will say, and I suspect you already know, that I do believe there is such a thing as "absolute truth", and I suspect that you and I have different interpretations of what that is. Does that make us enemies? Not at all, and I harbor no hard feelings toward Muslims or any other religious group. However, I do suggest that the object of our "faith" is more important than just having "faith". That being said, I still welcome you and thank for you joining in. A voice of reason is always assuring, please stop back anytime.

Mimi....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Georgia, you know how anxious I am about someone being angry at me..... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I know that you may still have just a tiny ember of CA left in there somewhere. But, I've also seen those Mimi claws deployed and it is a fearsome thing!!!!

(You may have to tangle with Bellevue for the "Domestic Goddess" title. Or, have you shed that monikor for P.D. Goddess now?).

Georgia

<small>[ February 21, 2005, 10:22 AM: Message edited by: Formerly G.G. ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But, I've also seen those Mimi claws deployed and it is a fearsome thing!!!!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, now I'm also CAT-WOMAN? I may soon have an identity crisis!!

I'll be watching your other thread, Mimi...

Let me just add this to the "other" subject. One of the things I've learned about myself through this ordeal is that I am discovering the REAL depth of my faith, the real me, not what is EXPECTED of me. Does that make sense? I'm no longer surrounded by all my "church" friends who see me as "Church FGG". And, even a bigger issue, I'm not being kept in check by WW or family responsibilities. So....this is leaving me to discover who I REALLY am. And in some ways, it's a bit scary. What if I don't like what I am/become? Who is there right now that will really care? Who is there that will "chasten" me back to where I should be? These are thoughts that I have as I have been married since 1976, that is a long time.

Not too long ago I was following the thread of one of our fellow MB'ers. His wife was a WS, and he had just gotten a D. He was celebrating by hittting the bars, looking for women, etc. And, I was disappointed in the amount of "encouragment" he was receiving here to do such. But...I ask myself, what will happen to me, what will I become? I've hung out in bars (pre-Christian days). Will I too, in due time and when the loneliness is overwhelming enough, turn to this sort of life to find "companionship"?

I guess I bring this up because it is germaine to the issue with F/H. I feel like I've worn the "SuperChristian" cape too long, and now I'm just "garden variety" Christian.

Okay, you've been treated to ramblings. Sorry about that.

Georgia

<small>[ February 21, 2005, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: Formerly G.G. ]</small>

FGG,

Ramblings noted and accepted. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> You are going through the processes of loss/grief that are required. Your ramblings reflect your deep spiritual foundations and concerns. You should never fear from posting these things.

There is no "easy" out for these things whether the marriage is rebuilt or ended.

I do have a question for you. Have you talked with your son's and their spouses lately?

I think it is time you consider doing so with regard to this situation. I recall a recent post where you expressed the sense that they were pulling back and you did not want them in the middle.

In my opinion this should be addressed and with your permission I would like to suggest how I would do it if I were running your life. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I would express to them that you appreciate their support and help. It is a great comfort that the love and respect you, however, this is your battle, because it is your marriage. They really cannot and should not be in the middle of it.

Likewise they have a battle, and that is to reconcile and address what has happened to their family. You don't want them to lose their mother, and you certainly would like to be in their lives forever. However, you cannot and should not be in the middle of their efforts to come to grips with this. Their relationship is with their MOTHER and yours is with your W.

You would be glad to help, talk, discuss, debate, or just support their efforts. But you want them to realize that they are NOT part of what has happened to your marriage. Just as you are not part of deciding what role their mother should have in their lives.

It is not an either or situation.

Does this make sense? I suspect they feel pressure (probably self-imposed) to try and mediate this situation. But, really they are not part of the problem, so they are not part of the solution, although they play an important role in both of your and your W's lives.

IN short they need to be let off of the hook, and told that for the most part you would love to see them, enjoy their company, share the good things going on in their lives, much more than you want to share your ongoing battle to save your marriage.

I hope something I have said is of help.

God Bless,

JL

Great Post, JL!

I agree with this way of approaching the boys. Super idea!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess I bring this up because it is germaine to the issue with F/H. I feel like I've worn the "SuperChristian" cape too long, and now I'm just "garden variety" Christian. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">FGG...LOL!!! With that sort of thinking, you won't have too much to worry about. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Remembering what "we" have been forgiven is the first step in humbleness and NOT thinking we are some sort of "SuperChristian." What God "wants" IS precisely the "garden variety" Christian.

Your comments to CuriosityKilledTheCat are also "right on." Faith, in and of itself, helps no one when it comes to "religious right or wrong." You are exactly correct that the defining issue is "what," or more precisely "who," we believe and who have faith in. It is, fundamentally, the issue of TRUTH versus opinion, emotional desire, or even denial.

Jesus Christ IS what sets Christianity apart from other "religions," or simple "morality" if you will.

Also, Just Learning raises a very important point and offers excellent advice regarding your children and their relationship with their mother and with you. It is substantantly different from your relationship with her as your wife.

Mimi - I am not upset with you or "against you." I, if anything, think you are sometimes TOO supportive of FGG separating from his wife and HOW he is separating from his wife. That may be a matter of "degrees," but if there is to BE a "Plan B" then it needs to be precise and complete with HOW any communication with his wife should take place, and through what intermediary. No matter what is going on, though, there can be no argument that this whole mess is NOT stressful and confusing. It IS! So support, even if it's not always, "on message," is also needed because NONE of us does it "right" all of the time and we need to know that others support us even if (should always read "WHEN") we make mistakes and don't do things "perfectly."

IF there is to be what I call(and used myself) a "modified Plan B" then there needs to be a focus for whatever contact there is and that focus needs to be on "what does God, not you or I, have to say about all this and how God sees us as husband and wife in a Christian marriage?"

Abusing "plan B," which is what I think has been going on, is detrimental to recovery and hinders the whole point of Plan B, which is to preserve the BS's love for the spouse AND to abandon the WS's ability to get some of their needs met by the BS so that the WS must get ALL of their Emotional Needs met by the WS. In short, it puts an end to "cakewalking" and "forces" the issue of making a very difficult decision, no matter what the decision IS.

So let me assure you, Mimi, that I have made my "share" of mistakes too. It's one of the major reasons why I keep going back to Scripture as the "the" authority, because God changes not. And sometimes we need a "refresher" course is just what it IS that God has said.

Surprisingly, or perhaps not so surprisingly, I and probably most of us, learn the fastest and usually the best THROUGH, and as a result of, the mistakes we make and our willingness to LEARN from them and to attempt to make positive changes.

The Scripture IS suitable for all training, correction, instruction, admonition, etc., in righteousness....

God bless.

I only wish I hadn't "wandered away from it" prior to my wife's affair. I have learned a lesson "the hard way." Hopefully others won't have to learn similar lessons the same way.

JL-

Thank you for the acceptance.

I had lunch with #2S/DIL on Sunday after church. They seem to be doing very well. We had good conversation during lunch, none of which had to do with M or WW. However, at the end of lunch, I told #2S that I wanted to ask him something. I asked if he had considered re-establishing his relationship with his M. He said that he has considered that, but he didn't feel like right now was the time to do so. He indicated that maybe after the D is final will be the time that he will feel he can continue with that relationship.

Actually, I would love to see both of the boys go to their Mom right now and try to support and love her. I know that is probably the "wimpy" thing to do, but I so hate to see her in so much pain. I know...that's the point of Plan B, having to suffer the consequences of her own choices, etc. I knowa all that.

On the #1S issue, he called me Sunday evening and we talked for just a few minutes about some trivial stuff. I told him about our friends calling (remember, it was #1S that called them and told them what was going on).

I think #1S/DIL will have a much harder time reconciling with WW. #1S is the dogmatic one of the family, I think his anger and hurt are probably about equal. Couple that with the very cutting actions of WW toward #1DIL and #1S is going to have a tough going of any kind of "normal" relatiohship with his Mom after this.

I would LOVE to see them all be close, loving, and supportive. I have tried to very careful to never put them "on the hook".

SH had advised me early on NOT to coach friends / family on how to respond to WW. But, I'm now beginning to wonder if it isn't time to "encourge" a reconciliation between Mom and her kids (and DIL's)

Input solicited.

Georgia

I'm moving quickly this afternoon. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

FOREVER:

I loved your last post. It clarifies a lot. Thank you. I have to get back into THE WORD.....

GEORGIA:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SH had advised me early on NOT to coach friends / family on how to respond to WW. But, I'm now beginning to wonder if it isn't time to "encourge" a reconciliation between Mom and her kids (and DIL's)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Read back over JL's post. Focus on your R with your kids. That's all- in your interactions with them!! Why are we always trying to fix things, Georgia?

What about your TV/DVD PLAYER? I saw the RAY dvd this weekend. It touched on a lot of MB issues that we have been discussing here. Plus, the state of GEORGIA was featured along with the song GEORGIA ON MY MIND. Thought about you.....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Formerly G.G.:
<strong> SH had advised me early on NOT to coach friends / family on how to respond to WW. But, I'm now beginning to wonder if it isn't time to "encourge" a reconciliation between Mom and her kids (and DIL's)

Input solicited.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I wouldn't encourage. I would let them decide what to do.

I watched my own mother go through 8+ marriages (lost count) only to end up dying alone in her sleep.

I tried to be supportive of her at different times along the way, but it made her just ask for more from me.

I went so far as to even allow one wedding to take place in my home. That marriage lasted about 10 months (a long one).

Several times a year, I would get middle of the night calls with her screaming about whatever the latest crisis was.

She demanded that all the brothers and families play Christmas at her place (wherever it was at the time), with her mate of the month.

She left my dad for the final time when I was 19 years old. My youngest brother was 9. She abandoned him. He has never been the same, and his life, a shamble.

In my experience, acceptance breed entitlement, rejection, at least brought me and my family periods of peace.

I think peace is important.

All the best,
Gimble

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Formerly G.G.:
<strong> Good Morning, all -

WOW!!! I leave you kids alone for a weekend and you all start squabbling. I thought I taught you better than that!!

I didn't realize that 2long and I were squabbling. I am open to criticism, however, and I appreciate that GG and 2long as well as the others who have posted on your thread have killer senses of humor. The problem with posting on the Boards is, like with email, you cant see the person's facial expression or hear the nuances in their voices. 2long, if I offended you, I beg your pardon. I still agree you are right to point out when I went off topic or introduced something unhelpful.

Belle - To quote Alice Cooper, welcome to my nightmare. (However, is there room on the MB for another "Goddess"?).

Hope so. I've been a Goddess so long, and Bellevue so long, that I've gotten very attached to the identities.

Anyway, endless speculation along these lines is without much purpose.

Okay, I'll knock it off. Meanwhile, Curiosity has posted some comments, and in the interests of NOT hijacking your thread, I will invite him to start a thread where he and I can discuss my comments and his comments, without distracting you from the whirlpool of your situation.

Let me add this about the "danger" to WW's faith. Whether by design or not, the R with OM has basically destroyed WW's faith. What makes this so incidious is that she see it as actually building her faith, it's just all the rest of us haven't made it to this higher level of understanding that she has now achieved. Remember, we are all "judgemental" and "disrespectful". Is she in danger of renouncing her Christian faith for Islam? I don't think so. Is she in danger of not even recoginizing Biblical Christianity? I think she is already there.

I think that is a key concept. Your wife may view herself as some sort of savior or messiah - not like the second coming of Jesus, but as having a special mission to convert one married couple (her Canadian friends) which mission is so important that everything else must take a back seat until her dream is realized. I believe that dream is illusory. If that "conversion" is her goal, she will not succeed. She is destroying herself and your lives.

And...this is where I may differ with some other opinions expressed here...there is NOTHING that I can do about it at this point. Yes, I am the spiritual head of the house, but willing submission and "followship" is by "free choice". Again, I believe the "can't serve two masters" analog (God and money) is of benefit here. WW can't submit to the leadership of 2 H's. She has chosen the one she wishes to submit to, and it is within her perogative to do that. This is what, to me, is meant by "free will". She has consciously chosen. Did she choose wisely??? I don't think so, but it is still her choice. And...I can't intercede and make her choose otherwise, I can only FORCE her to make a choice, which is what I have done.

The God of the Hebrews was so opposed to slavery that free will was the center of their faith. THATGod wanted His people to obey His laws, but of their own free will. If your wife forsakes her Emotional Affair, you are correct. It must be of her own free will, not as a result of being forced to desert the OM.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Good Morning all -

Mimi...you're doing it again...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What about your TV/DVD PLAYER? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Last night I went to Circuit City and bought a 27" Stereo TV. I didn't spend a lot of money, just a standard TV. I was going to buy a DVD player, but I was looking at one of those home theatre things that was REALLY COOL. For not much more than a DVD player, you get the "surround sound" speakers, plus a AM/FM tuner and the ability to listen to CD's or view picture CD's. So...I bought one of those. Now, I'm going to ramble a bit.

The house has what I will call a "picture rail" about 2 feet from the ceiling (11' ceilings) used to hang pictures by a long wire. I've hung the art that I have from the picture rail and it is so neat. Anyway, the rail has a slight indention behind it where a hook is supposed to hang. So...I'm going to run wires for the theatre system in that "trough" and mount a small speaker in each corner of the LR. The LR, in addition to the high ceilings, has the old original hard wood floor. I can hardly wait to get it set up.

But...before I went to Circuit City, I went to a local paint store and bought paint for the LR. The owner has agreed to pay for supplies for any improvements if I will donate the labor, so I'm painting the LR kind of a warm beige color (Pumpkin Sage @ Ace Hardware) and the trim (and picture rail) white. As soon as I get the holes patched in the walls (one night this week), I'm going to take a day off from work and paint the LR and get the theatre thing set up.

Okay, I'm excited about it.

Last night, after work out at the gym, I went to a local steak place for dinner. I got to talking to the waitress, she was telling me it had been real slow and she wasn't hardly making enough to pay the rent, etc. I asked if she had family and she said her only daughter was in college, husband died of a blood clot in the brain several years ago. She asked about me and I told her seperated and filed for D, then she said "Here, let me give you my cell phone number, I know you must be lonesome..etc." I told her "no thanks", I'm still in a transition period.

The only reason I tell about this is because this is what scares me. It is just incredible to me how some women are so forward these days. Culture has apparently changed so much in the past 28 years. In times past, when I heard of men who "slept around", I would wonder where they found so many willing women. I don't wonder that anymore...there seems to be a large pool of lonely and forward women who are as aggressive, if not more so, than men. This is very, very strange.

Enough of that....

I have re-thought JL's post on the kids. I talked to #1S last night and didn't mention WW or anything related. I get the idea, go on with life without WW (or the mending thereof) being the focus of it. The rest of the family will have to decide how / when to restore the R with WW. And yes...I am always trying to fix things, much to my detriment.

Gimble - I am so sorry to hear of all the pain your Mom caused and endured. Thank you for sharing that with me, and I agree, peace is VERY important.

Bellevue - I would enjoy reading such a thread as you propose. There is room for 2 Goddess' on my thread anytime, thank you so much for your input.

Anyway, that's the life of FGG today for all who have "Georgia on their mind".

Edit - to add BIG news !!!

The following ad has been in the paper the last few days:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Mix Breed Dog, FTGH, Fixed, House Trained. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I just called about him. His name is Thomas, he was found on the side of the road as a puppy and this very nice lady is looking for a home for him (he's now 9 months old). She doesn't want him to have a fenced yard as he is a climber and she is afraid he would get out. She wants someone who will walk him on a leash. And...when I asked if she has any idea of what kind of dog he is...are you ready for this?

"We think he is a Schnauzer".

I have an appointment to see him at lunch.

Georgia

<small>[ February 22, 2005, 08:16 AM: Message edited by: Formerly G.G. ]</small>

Georgia. I´m really happy for you!!! Hope that you get Thomas. I love his name.

I think that I´ve talked more with my dog these last few months than with anyone else!!!
and I don´t particularly like dogs!

Georgia,

I loved your last post, I'm excited for you buying a tv and surround sound thingy, painting your lr. Now possibly a dog

this is very good to hear (see)

Thanks, cc & Enchanted.

I'm going to meet Thomas, I'll let you all know if I have a new roommate.

Georgia

Belle:

"2long, if I offended you, I beg your pardon. I still agree you are right to point out when I went off topic or introduced something unhelpful. "

I'm not offended in the least! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I think FGG has his head firmly planted in the center of his shoulders on this one.

-ol' 2long

I am VERY SORRY to have to report that Thomas is not the dog for me. He was really sweet and gentle, but probably about 75 pounds or more. Not a small dog at all.

Plus..I don't think Thomas had any really distant relatives that were Schnauzers.

He is WAY too big for what I need.

Oh well....

<small>[ February 22, 2005, 12:41 PM: Message edited by: Formerly G.G. ]</small>

How unfortunate Thomas was not what you had hoped!
Some other one is sure to come along!

I'm breezing in and out to just say how wonderful the house plans are!

That's great about the TV and Home Theater!! Plus, you're becoming quite the Marvin Stewart of the MB Forum.....


Later......

Marvin Stewart ???

Martha Stewart's twin brother. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

She's in jail at this moment.