I'm really surprised anyone, let alone three of you made..."> I'm really surprised anyone, let alone three of you made...">

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Thanks for the support <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I'm really surprised anyone, let alone three of you made it through that novel up there <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I do feel right about the decision I am making. I know it's right for me and the kids. It's just sad. That's what it boils down to. Sad.

Snowbelle - He will realize it. That's a big part of the sadness. His weakness and unwillingness to step up to the plate, look at himself and see what is right in front of him is leading the the ruination of an entire family. Sad.

Pep - You're right, I do need the facts. Without them, you really CAN'T make a good decision. I think it is one of the reasons I have floundered in my own resolve. The What if's are always there.

And as much as I have no respect or concern for the OW here, she needed the facts too. He's stringing her along as well. Granted, she KNEW and encouraged him to be a liar. I don't imagine her prodding him to lie to her too though, so she needed to know what's going on as well.

I'm DAMN glad to have been the one to let her know <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I consider it my public service for the week.

Believer - I think I'm going to have to visit that Idiotville thread. I could use some relief from all these pesky life decisions.

Thank you again, to everyone, who takes the time to read, respond, advise or keep us in your thoughts. I know that without this forum and the great people here that this journey would be even more difficult.

((((MB))))

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Ah, yes, the facts. I know the MB philosophy admonishes BOTH the WS and the BS to stay clear of the OP, but in our case OW and I developed quite an email acquaintance over several months. That made it very clear from the beginning what the facts were. And my H knew we were in contact as I always shared with him our "conversations." Kept him on his toes.

I think the emails may have shaved off months of crap from our recovery. I don't recommend contact with the OP, though, for everyone. Whether this type of very limited contact will work depends a great deal on the circumstances surrounding the affair and the ability of the BS and OP to remain civil.

In your case, at this point, it seems to have advanced the cause of truth for all concerned.

~ Snow

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Oh, FIM. Dork! When you said that your story was a lot like mine, I read your threads (all of them!) and had such hope for you. Now, I admire your strength and your commitment to go on. For me, it has made me horribly aware of how easily my sitch can go the way of yours. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

You did everything right . But, ultimately even when you try your best, it is up to the Dork to come to his senses. Darn! I could just spit! Life can be so unfair. I pray that I will show the strength and courage of my convictions that you have shown in your situation.

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FIM..would ANYBODY who was sane marry at man who told her when he asked her to marry him that he was 60% sure she was the right woman for him---NO!
Then why my dear would you want to stay married to a man who is 60% sure he wants to be with you. It's like pregnancy, you're either pregnant or not..there's no 60%.

That 60% wasn't strong enough to keep him from now living with ow/child. So would that 60% be strong enough to keep him faithful if he did come home. Would that 60% keep him from breaking NC.. Would that 60% give you confidence in your marriage and his ability to protect you and your family? It's like pregnancy, you're there or you're not. He's not. Sad. Sad. Sad.

Now keeping in mind the fog and how it makes one say insane things..this is beyond fog...it's character or rather lack of character. The fact that the whole fiasco was pre-planned and that your daughters were used to make the plan believable is clear and simple abuse. Abuse of the innocent for the sake of an adulterous relationship with someone who has not been a child for very long. I'm ashamed of him...very ashamed.

FIM, there's a special man out there for you that will passionately appreciate what a special person you are. I don't think you should keep anything on the back burner--go and live your life fully. Please don't waste another thought on this nightmare he has created. He needs to deal with it himself. Don't fall into the trap of any kind of support for him=emotionally or financially. He had his opportunity in Plan A and that time has come and gone. No more.

Your focus now is the kids and yourself. Stay focused. Very focused.

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Just dropped in to second everything jph has said.

Heck I'll marry you. I'm not gay, but I'll make an exception <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Noodle

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I hope that you can get thru the sadness with minimal angst.

It is no fun saying enough. It physically hurts BUT is SO empowering in some circumstances.

OW is a total child if she accepts his phony-baloney lines from now on. They deserve each other if she does.

I hope they crash and burn in their relationship but

YOU.....I wish you the very best and the very joyful life you SO deserve from now on.

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Although I understand your wanting to go directly to D, and I know that you can always remarry him later on should the D go through, I just wanted to ask that you think about legal separation again.

What reasons did your lawyer give you for going directly to D instead of legal separation? I assume that you would be better protected financially from any further damage your WS could cause while behaving like a dork.

The ideal for your children will always be for your H to be in an intact family. He isn't really replaceable. Yes, you can move on and if you D you probably won't have a problem eventually meeting another man to spend your life with. I just think that you may be able to move on without the seeming finality of a D just yet.

It certainly took longer than 6 months for my H to end his most serious A. We were on and off for 4 yrs. I know that sounds like a very long time. It was painful, but ultimately we are together with A's behind us with a much stronger marriage than pre-A's.

Had I D'd 6 months or even a yr. or 2 after D-day then I doubt that I'd be at the place we are now because even though his A may have ended I would have moved far enough along to probably have met someone else.

For better or worse...I may never know, I know I experienced some of the worst times in my life but I think I grew stronger having gone through it.

I know it already seems like a long time for you to put up with this crap. It really isn't.

But, it is your call and I can't fault you for being at the end of your rope with his shenanigans.

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I really believe that a good amount of the sadness is used up. I am sad. Don't get me wrong. I'm sad that our family has to go through this. I'm sad that the possibilities of this marriage will never be realized.

But, I recognize that the future has wonderful possibilies without WH.

I believe I will be happy with someone else. I DO believe I have something wonderful in my future and so do my kids.

I believe I am happy with myself first and foremost. I have learned so much about me as FIM, not as mom, not as wife, but just as me.

I don't want him. I don't want to fix this. Like I said earlier, I went into saving our marriage with no other goal in mind. I knew divorce was a possibility but I attacked the problem with only one outcome in mind. Visualize your goal. I did. I went through it as if it was an inevitable conclusion...the salvation of our marriage and family. Again, I knew there was a possibility of divorce, but I didn't prepare for that.

Opposite place now. I am going forward with MY life. Without him. I'm not fixing this marriage. Could a new one be started....someday....sure. But it's MUCH more likely that I will move on and past and end up with an entirely new person. I WANT THAT!!! Right now, that is what I want.

I was willing to work through everything and do the hard work to rebuild after an A. I WANTED to. I couldn't wait to come out on the other side stronger and better for it.

I just don't want to anymore. The lies. The deceit. The unfeeling, inconsiderate, down right cruel actions towards me..and more importantly, our children.. have taken that desire away. I don't want him. Truly, I don't think he wants himself.

Not my problem though.

I can not and will not continue with this. Uh uh.

So, while I won't dismiss the possibility of a NEW relationship with him should he ever get himself together, I'm not counting on it. I'm not even hoping for it. I have no faith in it.

I want something new and untarnished. It's the easy way, true, and nothing stays perfect forever. But after all this ugliness and pain and hurt, I just want something pure. Even if just for a few weeks or months.

That's a long time out. I have to refile for divorce. Then it's another three months. Then, there's the whole finding someone and blah blah.

I'm going to be with my kids and build my new life FIRST. But one day, I'll get to that place where I'm ready to move over and make room for someone else. One day. And I don't doubt I'll get there.

Until then, I'm sad about what could have been. But it wasn't and that's that. I'm not sad to not have him. He's unworthy of our children and of me. He is going to get out of life what he has put in. God help him!

I am sad that there was so much that could have been. I'm sad that these children deserved the dad they once had. But he's not that man. I don't believe he can recover himself. Maybe he will. I have a hard time seeing it though.

Truly, there is a whole world out there. There is more than this man and I want to find out what there is. Once I'm on solid ground, I want to bring someone in who I can respect, who my children can respect, who I can love without reserve. There is a lot of that love in me. I like being married. I enjoy giving that love. He's losing out, and will realize it, by choosing to not be the receiver of that love. He'll never know something like it again. I believe that.

So, I'm going to do my best to not be sad. It will come up, no doubt. But there is so much to run towards in the future that I hope, by concentrating on that future, I can stop myself from living in the past.

That past is where the sadness lies. The future is where I will find my happiness.

....and..there's always noodle <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

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Dear Faith, everything you are saying and doing is 100% right. Who the bloody hell wants 60%? Re-reading your (long <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) post reminded all of us here of the crap you've been dealt. As a catholic, I really take on board the seriousness of going to see the priest, the burning of the divorce papers and having the kids witness this. It really is beyond belief. If it is fog, let him have it - you will be free to walk in the sunshine!

HOWEVER, here's my thought for the day. I reckon your phonecall to OW will give her enough ammunition to boot him out. I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if that is the next chapter. Maybe she also wants her 100%. What then?

Protect yourself, financially and emotionally you and your children deserve peace of mind. TT

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I think that maybe he has made one of his last withdraws from your love bank and you are running on empty. He did this-he needs to hit bottom if there is any hope, but I think you may have had enough. This has been so hard for you, but I think he will be back. I also think he will realize too late, although people do get back together after a period of time. I just think you are such a good catch that someone may steal you in the meantime. Do not date until the divorce is final and two years have past for the best results. Faith, you are great-I don't know what to say, he is really being a dork.

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FIM,

I always check on your threads.

I'm amazed that you were able to have a calm conversation with the OW.

I'm sure you are correct in thinking that she doesn't know what she is doing, but still ... it must have been difficult for you.

In my situation, I called OM once or twice - and sent him a couple of emails. It didn't help. He doesn't percieve me to be an actual human being. In his mind, I seem to be some kind of inhuman monster who my poor little W is stuck with. In your case, I really wonder what your H told her about you and the kids. Now she knows that you are real - a voice on the other end of a phone - but real all the same. If she has any decency in her - and any fear of suffering the same fate, this phone call might cause her to change paths.

I read your other thread also, and I think it would do no harm to send the copies of the documents.

Keep up the good fight.

Your H is losing a great W!

-AD

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FIM...Ive just got back from being away for a week and have just caught up on your threads.

Did u file for D on Monday?

Big hugs.

Deb xx

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Calling FiM. How are you doing, hon?

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I am thinking of you and saying a prayer. Hope you are doing OK. Just let it go Faith. Let it go and ride the wave. What will be will be.

I expect he will either be back soon or ask you to go to him. It doesn't matter. You have told him how to come home if he wants to, so the ball is in his court-so to speak.

You are wonderful. You are loving. You are patient and kind. You are a beautiful soul.

We can't control others only ourselves, you have been so on target about everything. Trust your heart. We support whatever you choose to do. I'll keep on checking in on you. It isn't over until you want it to be-remember that. He is very mixed up and lost. All I can tell you is personally, we have recovered and my H is ashamed of who he was during his A. I believe he loves me more than ever because I stayed at his side, but each case is different and you need to do what you have to. All I can say is that four years out I am happy again and that he surprises me. I can't believe he loves me this much-really I can't let myself believe, but I know it is true. I was where you are-I thought that was it. I saw the lawyer and made my plans, but slowly-the fog lifted and there was the man I married, so it can happen. I agree with the NC. Hang in there Faith. We love you and care about you and your family. I wish you lived next door so that I could help.

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Hey FIM,

How is it going on this foggy Veteran's Day? Is it raining yet or just fog up your way? I would love to see the sun again, how about you?

Just for inspiration I re-read your posts (yes, even the long ones <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Your strength always encourages me.

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FIM?

Give us an update, please. How's it going with you?

-AD

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Thought of you last night FIM, as I snuggled two very wiggly kids while we chowed down on movie theatre pickles (those horrible sour ones, that make sure your remember to take your zantac beforehand) and popcorn. Who Framed Roger Rabbit was on...gotta love Disney channel!

Love to you and the kiddoes this weekend!

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Faith-are you plan bing us? Just kidding!! Hope all is well and that you have a great day. Hugs-Jersey Girl

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WARNING: IT'S LONG, WORDY AND A BUNCH OF FIM REFLECTIONS!! I'm pretty sure this is my longest post ever, and that says A LOT! READ AT YOUR OWN RISK <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
**********************************

Good Morning and Happy Friday! This has been a week I would rather forget. Thank you for keeping us in your thoughts. I was touched to come back and see the inquiries.

Well, Sunday night my 10 year old ran away. She walked six blocks to my parents business and called them to pick her up. THANK GOD she made it there safe and knew she had someone to call. She sat there until my mom picked her up crying and clutching a picture of her baby brother. Later, I found a note she had left in the bathroom saying "I love you but I have to go". She had also written that on the bathroom mirror, so when I took a shower that night I saw it when I got out. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

She told my parents she felt like she didn't have a family anymore. She's mad at her dad for leaving and lying, mad at me for not spending enough time with her and basically mad at the world because she "used to always be happy and now she never is".

She stayed the night at my parents and ended up coming home after school on Monday. I talked with her and we came up with a plan on how to talk with each other before the feelings get so big we burst. She also talked to her dad that night and told him she didn't want to talk to him anymore because he lies and she doesn't believe him anymore.

Tuesday night, both girls had the stomach flu. Regina, the 10 year old, threw up at volleyball practice and continued throwing up until midnight. Erica, my 8 year old, started at 11:30 and continued until about 3 am. The baby has had diarreah since Monday and even with changing him at least every half hour and numerous times throughout the night, he has developed a horrible diaper rash.

I got the bug on Wednesday night. YUCK!

So, this week has been one of puke, poop, snot, no sleep, stinky pukey laundry and, of course, Dork being a dork.

Monday I had a reporter and photographer to deal with at our school, Tuesday and Wednesday I spent time pulling up stats for the article (it ran today though and was very nice for publicity at the school <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> , Thursday I had a meeting for work after being sick all night.

Wow. I'm whiny today!! Anyway, I just haven't had time to get on here with everything.

Things with Dork are about the same. No, I haven't filed for the divorce. After some thought, I'm not going to do it. HE chose to end this marriage. HE can do that. It's not like I'm ready to run off and start dating and need that divorce for anything. The biggest reason for it, other than being a symbol to him that I am finished with his games, was financial. Well, the guy isn't working anyway. I've funneled all of the money coming in to my bank account. Financially, he can't get me into much more trouble than he already has anyway.

Filing those papers isn't going to change how I'm living one way or another. Besides that, the filing fee is better spent on our household bills than on the divorce.

As for Dork, he is calling every night. He talks to Erica, but Regina won't talk to him. Each night I ask her and each time she says no. I make sure he hears me ask and her answer. He leaves Guatemala tomorrow morning and has said his plan is to go to San Antonio and start work, look for a job elsewhere, come home for Thanksgiving and try to get us all living somewhere together as soon as possible.

Regardless of how many times I tell him that's not happening, he just says that's his plan and what he is going to do no matter what I say. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

He seems to think that because we talk civilly right now (because all I do is answer the phone, talk about money when needed and give the phone to daughter) that our communication is improving and he can now SHOW me he really wants our marriage to work. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Whatever.

Through all of the sleepless nights with the kids and me being sick, I've thought about what I truly want. Am I holding out for something? Do I want him to come running home? What am I doing to make sure my children and I are strong and healthy? Am I still respecting myself? (in MY belief, not what others think about my choices)

I'm sharing this because I don't think I'm alone in the answers I came up with.

I think deep down I am holding onto hope that he will see what is happening and change. I know I am actually. In the last 14 months, I spent two months with my husband and I don't think I have been able to accept that THAT DORK IS my husband.

The man who came home for a few days in January for the birth of our son has no resemblance to this guy. How does someone change THAT much?

Someone mentioned it is a character issue. Yep. It is now. But this is so OUT of character for the husband and father I shared the last 8 years with. Our friends just sit back and go "Huh?" when I tell them what he says and does.

It's not just the idea that he wants someone else or is going back and forth. If he acted ANYTHING like he has for the majority of the time I have known him, that others have known him, I'd deal with this whole thing differently. When I look at him, I still see the man I've shared my life with. I have a hard time really seeing who he has become or believing this callous and selfish man is all that is left of the caring, loving, involved father and husband I love.

I think that's why MB made so much sense to me. It's why the "fog" concept made sense to me. I could see this in my WH.

At the same time, the changes in him, whether permenant or not, even if he feels HORRIBLE later for what he is doing, are affecting me and our children in such detrimental ways.

How do you balance the two? I've not done a great job of it.

I am your classic rescuer. I always have been. Maybe that's why I keep seeing the remaining potential for him to see what is happening.

So, what does this do for me? Well, I looked at myself honestly. I WANT to NOT try. I WANT to want to just throw him to the wolves of his own making.

In recognizing that I want to feel that way, but don't, has made me sit back and say "What the hell are you going to do FIM?"

I lasted a week in no contact with him....longer than that if you count the days I only talked about finances with him.

I LB'ed all the way down to SAT and once he got there. I HAD PLENTY OF REASON TO!! But, I wish I had handled myself differently.

He's planning on coming here to see the kids at Thanksgiving no matter what. He's not staying with us, he knows that. He can't join us on Thanksgiving at my family's home, he knows that. I'll probably let him stay at our house during the day on Thanksgiving while we are gone though and see the kids when we get home. He can sit in the home he used to have, alone, on a family holiday.

I plan on having the house already decked out for Christmas. When he visits the kids at the house, there will be Christmas music playing, a fire blazing and something baking in the oven ( I bake like a mad woman during the holidays).

Why am I doing this? It's a reminder. What he had. What, in truth, he could have again.

But, although I'll be pleasant, I won't talk relationship. I'll be kind but not "lovey".

I have previously said, and still believe, I DO NOT want this man. I stand by the fact he needs to change himself. He needs to PROVE who he is and wants to be. He would need to demonstrate his desire to be with me and be someone to respect and love.

He may not do it. He may not want that. He may not be willing to do the work it would take.

Okay.

I have accepted that and CAN live with it. I know I want it be different. But, it may just not be. That is what I came to. I have achieved acceptance that my future may not be what I planned. I acknowledge I can't CHANGE that. I can maybe influence his desire to change, but I can't make it happen.

So, he's coming to visit. I'll remind him of what he drove away from.

I reread SAA. I did a good Plan A. I haven't even ever DONE a Plan B, regardless of what I called my previous attempts.

In accepting I do want him to change if that is what he eventually wants and for there to be a chance, I am not going to "go dark" or "tough love it out". I am going to PLAN B. Truly. Seriously. PLAN B.

I must have read that section and articles here 10 times this week.

I have realized PLAN B is not about him, it is about me. It IS about building my life. It is taking responsibility for me. It is closing a door but leaving a note on it telling him where he can find a new key and how to use it to get back in.

It's what I keep saying I am going to do, but being honest with myself and him that there is a way in, a hard way, but one that can be done.

So, when he leaves, he gets a letter. I've set up an intermediary. He can talk with the kids. I don't know exactly what I am going to write, but I do know that I won't accept an "I'm going to do this or that" anymore. Demonstration. Action.

This, if he wants it to work, will take a LONG time. I realized it isn't going to be an overnight thing. That was a fantasy I was holding on to too. That he'd "wake up", say "I love you and want you forever" and things would be okay.

That realization alone helped me. This isn't going to be wrapped up by Christmas, or Easter or next summer. And maybe wrapped up means a divorce. It's going to be a long, hard road. And that is even if it is traveled at all! The kids and I NEED to know it would be real before we tried.

I plan on going ahead with our lives though. My family is my children and me. I want it to be different, I'd be willing to work towards that down the road under very specific changes. Right now though it would be impossible for those needs and changes to be met. THAT needed to be realized too. Nothing, no token, is going to be enough for me to REALLY build on for quite a while. Why didn't I see that before?

So...I'm going to go as things are now, over Thanksgiving let him SEE what he walked away from while maintaining my own walls, and then Plan B.

I also realized that Plan B doesn't mean things are going to work out or even that if WH goes through all the motions, I have to stay! It's a place for me to insulate myself from the pain and growing resentment, to move forward in life and be self reliant again. It gives him an option to try if he desires. There is nothing that says by the time he wants to try I MUST still be willing. It's not nessecarily black and white. Divorce NOW or stay together FOREVER. Now or never.

I think that's why I kept saying "I'm filing for divorce", "I'm done" and "No way!". I am fed up. I am past the point of helping him to grow. That is truth for now. I do hope that this isn't the person he wants to be and that man I did love can overcome. I kept saying, "He can't change now". But he changed into this, maybe he can become a better person. Love hopes. I do hope.

I can hope while building though. Plan for the worst and hope for the best. I guess that would be my plan. I'm interviewing for a job out of state next week. I'm putting the house on the market and have decided on the apartments I'd like the kids and I to move into if we stay here. Those are positive steps for my family, the kids and me.

There will be a path home for him though too. He can choose to take it or not. I'm not waiting or planning on it. But I will keep that small hope deep in my heart. I'll tell him where the key is and maybe I won't have changed the lock by the time he decides to use it.

The beauty I see in the true implementation of Plan B is that I'll be able to TRULY accept the outcome by the end. It seems to me, in rereading, that as Plan B goes on it becomes easier and easier. That's where you are until you are done. It allows you to be HONEST WITH YOURSELF about your deepest hope of reconciliation, while making it easier to move forward with your own life independantly while you heal your heart and soul. Yes, the hope and plan is to end the affair by ruining the fantasy. But, while doing that I can put myself first...BECAUSE THAT IS THE PLAN. It helps end the chaos. You stay there until you're done; until your love is gone,you are ready to move forward without your WS or you are both ready to start recovery.

That's a damn fine plan! By the end, you're where YOU want to be either way. So, that's what I'm doing. Right now, I just want to get to one of those three places. I'd prefer the third option, but one and two would be okay too.

That said...have a wonderful weekend:)

<small>[ November 12, 2004, 02:58 PM: Message edited by: faithinme ]</small>

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Wow, FIM,

I am confident you will give yourself as good a Plan B as you were able to give HIM a Plan A!!

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