Tell y'all what....I'll rewrite this so that it meets all the criteria to be politically correct.

When you come here, you may be welcomed and told how important it is that you come clean about your affair. You may be told that your marriage cannot survive unless you can be honest and give your spouse the information they need to either leave you or create a marriage that is no longer vulnerable to an affair. You may be prodded and convinced that it is the honorable thing to do and that you made a mistake, but you can be a better person and save your marriage if you will end contact and confess the affair to your spouse.

But beware....once you do...you may also be dragged through the mud and acused of the vilest things imaginable. If your spouse hits you, cuts you, even desires to kill you when you confess...you may be told that you deserve it all because you are the lowest creature on earth, and no punishment can truly atone for your sins. Many will not remember urging you to confess... only remember what you did. Many will take their own pain, and heap it upon you and add it to everything you will suffer in real life, because no amount of suffering is enough to truly punish you.

It's the old "bait and switch".

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by star*fish:
Tell y'all what....I'll rewrite this so that it meets all the criteria to be politically correct.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't care about political correctness... only accuracy.

Pep

Starfish, there are many WS' on this forum who have not only recovered, but THRIVE, so I find your post to be ridiculous. It's one thing to have a reaction to one post, but to go on this tirade and castigate the entire forum is simply outrageous.

I can't tell you how shocked I am that you are attempting to turn a disagreement into a board war and justify your overreaction by claiming that you are only doing so to "help" WSes. A board war helps no one, Starfish, and I hope the mods shut down this silliness.

<small>[ November 01, 2004, 10:34 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> That thread contained only a small handful of posters that you appeared to disagree with. That hardly amounts to the entire board. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That thread represents our collective inability to create an environment for people to find support for doing the right, the honorable, and the honest thing even if we have fallen and failed. How can we convince people that there is still hope and forgiveness after sin if they confess and end those acts, if we treat them this way?...OR we allow them to be treated this way by others? It isn't only the people who attacked dc who are responsible for the what happens here...we are all here.

Star,

Beleive me that I mean no disrespect when I ask you this question, but isn't your thread doing just as much harm [if not more] as those few posters over Dreamcatcher's thread?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by star*fish:
That thread represents our collective inability to create an environment for people to find support for doing the right, the honorable, and the honest thing even if we have fallen and failed.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So just because of those few posters views, the whole forum is now damned forever and should be blacklisted?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How can we convince people that there is still hope and forgiveness after sin if they confess and end those acts, if we treat them this way?...OR we allow them to be treated this way by others? It isn't only the people who attacked dc who are responsible for the what happens here...we are all here.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hasn't the history of this forum demonstrated time and time again that the VAST majority of WS that come here are greeted with tolerance and respect by the MAJORITY of BS?

No offense taken TMCM. I believe that the potential for harm that occured on that thread...is far greater and has such potential to keep WSs from ever confessing...that I'm willing to cause a bit of an uproar.

I'll have to read Dreamcatcher's thread. It would be sad if true but FH you are right, it can be a minefield on here. There are MANY reasons a thread can go bad. Sometimes threads are full of poor advice either becaue the respondents do not fully understand the basic MB concepts or because they have not bothered to read the poster's history before responding. Star had a great response on the EN board (I think) to one particular long time poster just recently along this vein. On the opposite side of the spectrum are those who appear to "support" or minimize poor choices in sympathy towards the thread author b/c they DO know the history.

It is also very true that that some transfer their own negative feelings towards their spouse onto other posters but that's the way it goes. When it goes into an extreme without correction by other more level headed MBers, then the thread goes south. Recovery is going to be very difficult for these sorts until they are willing to stop finger pointing and examine themselves. It's an unfortunate byproduct that they can end up hurting others in the process.

It is my observation that most threads follow a certain pattern until someone with more MB knowledge or discernment into a particular type of situation shows up. I am saddened by the recent spate of emotionally and physically abused wives posting and being told that if they improve their communication skills they will improve or have some control over their situation. It's like offering Bandaids for someone with a broken leg. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I think we need to bear in mind that b/c this is a public forum we are dealing with the PUBLIC. Unfortunatly b/c we can't see each other face to face we have to rely soley on the written word to assess others. I learned a hard lesson a long time ago about this, that some people are just MUCH better on paper than real life. Star's post intrigued me because I've been thinking about some of the thoughlessness that seems to be predominating threads lately. Comments?

My take on the thread in question... errors were made...

A bottle was thrown during a drunken state by a traumatized BH ... some posters immediately said this about her H ---> "He is an abuser" (my opinion, there is not enough data to say he is an abuser, only that he hit her once ---> cannot determine if it was by accident or on purpose the way the story was relayed)

Some posters agreed that one thrown bottle =equals= an abusive husband (since I punched my H in the mouth one time, this puts me in the same category)

One thrown bottle does not an abusive husband make. It was an abusive incident. May not be repeated. One thrown bottle is one too many.

People who have been the betrayed spouse in general can relate to the blind rage that literally overcomes the conscious mind. Formerly betrayed recognize the possibility of doing and saying things one would not ordinarily say and do ... These things are suddenly possible.

To say that the betrayed husband who threw the bottle in his rage is an abuser...

is like saying thie following...

"Once a cheat, always a cheat."

It does not follow logic.

That, in my opinion, is where the thread went awry ... did not follow logic. Only emotional reactive responses.

Pep

This is a moderated forum and any poster can be banned from it if the moderators beleive that he/she has violated the terms of membership.

Pep,

Did you read this post?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think something has been taken as a given that really..isn't.

It is the belief that the violence visited on a WS by a BS is underserved.

Sorry..no. If he wanted to drag you and OM into the center of town, tie you together and carve his rage into your flesh before lighting you on fire ..you deserve it. This is the treatment that your actions have *earned* so to speak. You have committed a crime..a very real crime against another person..you do not deserve any protection from the reactions of the bereaved.

I am in full agreement with Thos.

Now..having lit the board on fire with the above statement..allow me to continue.

Just because something is deserved..does not make it sustainable or healthy.

I think we can all agree that you must protect yourself and not allow attacks to be made on your person.

I think we can all agree that this is destructive to the possibility of future recovery. It's an unhealthy pattern. It fails to bring real resolution.

You have put your H in an position where there is no such thing as "win". He will lose no matter what. He has lost already. What he has lost can not be redeemed. You have willfully destroyed something vital in him..something that he will grieve the loss of. His pain is measured in decades. His hell is eternal. The conflict does not end if he chooses to remain with you. What a sadistic choice, no? Stay and fix the marriage thereby abandoning all hope of ever truly moving on...or leave you and lose all of the history that you have built together..just undo a very significant portion of his life in order to cut his losses.

The trouble with assigning punishment for the WS is that there really isn't anything that could be done to you..that would be the measure of what you have done. Even killing you isn't enough.

So, with that in mind. Having you cry in your beer that your weekend is ruined now that your husband has been made aware of your vicious and malignant behavior is a bit like witnessing a killer mourn the loss of their best knife.

You can pretty well be assured that the party is all over now, for both of you.

It is entirely uncertain that he will be willing to reconcile. Even if he agrees to you should be prepared for him to change his mind early and often. Study on the definition of mercy. It is sometimes given..never owed.

He may well choose to protect himself from you. He is entirely justified in doing so.

You are about to learn the meaning of the word "sorry". If he chooses to stay with you..it will not be your pain over the loss of your lover [is wiggling around on another mans penis really worth this destruction?] it will be the mutual grief over the death of your marriage...and the necessity of dragging your former marriages carcass around with you despite the smell of decay.

What a sad thing..that even as I type..still more people are engaging in..and discovering..and contemplating..the very actions that we here are trying to recover from. That people who know full well the reckless and ruthless lack of regard that they are having for the lives of others..their supposed loved ones....right now are dismissing such thoughts from their minds in order to carry on pursuing what pleases them.

Entropy is such a depressing state of existence.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is the response to someone who confessed to their spouse...who even dc said was justified in feeling angry.

<small>[ November 01, 2004, 10:53 AM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by star*fish:
<strong> No offense taken TMCM. I believe that the potential for harm that occured on that thread...is far greater and has such potential to keep WSs from ever confessing...that I'm willing to cause a bit of an uproar. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's nonsense, Star. The potential for harm was already there, that post changed nothing.

A WS should be aware that even the most passive betrayed spouse can become violent when told of an affair. That is just a fact of life and it helps no one to hide that truth. That truth did not orginate with that post.

Folks can react violently when faced with a person who has just destroyed their life. That is a very real risk that the WS has to take. And that risk was there last week and will be there next week.

<small>[ November 01, 2004, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

*Star* ... if there is ONE poster you vehemently object to and disagree with ... take THAT person on ... not the generic "they" and the obtuse "no one"...

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> A WS should be aware that even the most passive betrayed spouse can become violent when told of an affair. That is just a fact of life and it helps no one to hide that truth. That truth did not orginate with that post.

Folks can react violently when faced with a person who has just destroyed their life. That is a very real risk that the WS has to take. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My husband cheated on me...but he is INCAPABLE of destroying my life Melody. He could never in a million years destroy the light of my life...because I am who I am. Why would I let HIS actions vanguish me? He hurt me as badly as any human being can...but he could have saved me some of it by being honest! When we punish people for honesty....we create an environment for sin. If there is no honesty...if dc had just kept this secret...what consequence would there be at all? Why heap it on her now? Didn't we already convince her? She came here, we convinced her that she should be honest. Many told her to forgive her husband for his actions and she agreed...but this is far beyond any of that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You have put your H in an position where there is no such thing as "win". He will lose no matter what. He has lost already. What he has lost can not be redeemed. You have willfully destroyed something vital in him..something that he will grieve the loss of. His pain is measured in decades. His hell is eternal. The conflict does not end if he chooses to remain with you. What a sadistic choice, no? Stay and fix the marriage thereby abandoning all hope of ever truly moving on...or leave you and lose all of the history that you have built together..just undo a very significant portion of his life in order to cut his losses. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yikes!!

Attempting to put myself in a guilt-ridden, distraught individual's shoes for just a moment, it seems to me this type of statement has the potential to do some serious, serious, damage. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

The above statement might be just what a depressed, guilt-ridden, hurting soul, needs to hear to confirm that they no longer have options.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> *Star* ... if there is ONE poster you vehemently object to and disagree with ... take THAT person on ... not the generic "they" and the obtuse "no one"... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah....and just ignore anyone that agreed or just let it stand like that? No pep....no can do. I already editted on your advice and replaced the "they" and "no one".

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My husband cheated on me...but he is INCAPABLE of destroying my life Melody. He could never in a million years destroy the light of my life...because I am who I am.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Star, and I have no doubt that you view it like it, but most do not. I sure didn't. They view it as the destruction of everything good in their life; as a rape. It is a devastating blow. And I am here to tell you that it was as devastating to me as the death of my child.

The reaction very often IS violence. So while we should continue to encourage the WS to tell the truth, that advice must also be tempered with the very real truth, that BS can become violent. That is a risk that cannot and should not be hidden.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah....and just ignore anyone that agreed or just let it stand like that? No pep....no can do. I already editted on your advice and replaced the "they" and "no one". </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So instead you choose to start a silly board war over it that helps no one.

edited

<small>[ November 01, 2004, 11:32 AM: Message edited by: Sadfww ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Star, and I have no doubt that you view it like it, but most do not. I sure didn't. They view it as the destruction of everything good in their life; as a rape. It is a devastating blow. And I am here to tell you that it was as devastating to me as the death of my child.

The reaction very often IS violence. So while we should continue to encourage the WS to tell the truth, that advice must also be tempered with the very real truth, that BS can become violent. That is a risk that cannot and should not be hidden. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Melody,

Of all the pain in my life...including rape, physical and verbal abuse...NOTHING compared to the pain of infidelity. To stop this from happening to other people...we come here and we educate folks about how devastating it is. We encourage them to STOP hurting others because we KNOW this pain. We encourage them to confess and live authentically.

When violence erupts as a result of it...many of us will UNDERSTAND the desire to do those things. But that desire is a result of our own pain...not a true reflection of what they "deserve". None of us deserve to be harmed...no the WS, and the BS. We can on the one hand....urge people to confess...and on the other...tell them they deserve to be beaten for sinning in the first place. I understand dc's husband's reaction (far too well! I wanted to hurt my husband mightily!)...but I would not call a repentent spouse deserving of violence. And I would never create the vile images that post conjured...or call it "eloquent".

The one thing that we agree on is that WS SHOULD be warned of violence when they confess....because you are right, it IS a possibility. But perhaps they should also be warned about the reaction of some of the people here....who may also want to release some of their own anger?