I rarely post at this site but read often.

Please let me know what the website is that you ladies go to because as a FWW, I want to go there also.

I need a place where others will understand the pain not only of the BS but our pain of missing the addiction of the OM and the affair!

When Bob Pure said something about the motel where his wife and her OM humped, it just made me feel his description was SO very very disrespectful to his wife.

It lacked any understanding of what prompted her to have an affair; put her in category of an animal!

Any of us that really had sincere feelings for the OM, did not look at the intimate time with him as 'HUMPING'.

Anyway, I would love a SAFE PLACE to post.

Make, if you want to talk about things like missing the OM and the affair, etc, you might try gloryb.com. You won't get alot of support for such destructive talk around here. This is a marriage building forum, not a romanticize the sleazy affair forum.

As far as Bob's reference to humping, my hat is off to him for being so mild. He is more reserved than I, for sure. I usually refer to two affairees getting it on as 2 pigs rutting in the pig pen. I just can't think of a more respectful way to describe sleazy, illicit sex. What's disrespectful is the ACT and it deserves no respectful language in description.

So, I wish you the best in finding the kind of forum where you can get that kind of support and thank God it is not this forum.

It is smart A** remarks like Melody Lane just gave, that makes this board a place where FWW, that have any trouble getting over the addiction of the OM, feel like we are just rutting pigs in her snotty opinion!

I could live my entire lifetime without hearing her rude remarks!

Gloryb is a site more for women that are STILL IN the affair; anyway that is what I thought.

Rachel

Rachel, however, if you want to do productive things, such as work on rebuilding your marriage, rather than romanticize a sleazy affair, you WILL find lots of support here.

But rest assured that BS' are not required here to pretend that a disrespectful, disgusting act is anything but.

this site is about building/rebuilding marriages...

even inspite of ...

the pain of any ones infidelity....
no matter where the label lays....or which side of the coin one happens to be....

People here think it's funny to call the OP names and to attack one another,

people don't think it's funny...
people hold great restraint in that department...

I do wonder how many WS there are out there that have left the board after being on the receiving end of an expression of someones anger.

It's an opinion board...take it or leave it...
rarely is raw anger expressed here..
it serves no purpose...people that post here get that....
there is very little of that...

even if very "foggy" that being flamed by those reacting to their own personal griefis not the best way to support tham.

I have no triggers...and am not unsympathetic to their pain...but it serves no purpose in the healing process.....
I can't support that of which does not serve their well being..in the bigger picture....keep the focus on the larger goal...

and yep we can create a forum where we all wallow in the pain..

BS can go on adnauseum how bad the OP is...
villifying and crucifying them....
WS can go on adnauseum how terrible their marriage and spouse is/are...and how much they miss the OP...and no one will mention that relieving them of the feeling of missing the OP hurts innocent children and perhaps spouses...

we can die in the minutia...

or we can cut past the feelings <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
part and get down to the actions of healing ...
and re-building
and creating a marriage that brings great joy into all our lives......

I personally...
am hard on BS/OP/WS equally ...

that's the way I see it...

ARK

I KNEW I shouldn't have returned to this thread..but it started off REALLY WELL...with the best of intentions. And then it took a slippery turn. And then it got worse. And now this....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I need a place where others will understand the pain not only of the BS but our pain of missing the addiction of the OM and the affair! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you scroll up to my FIRST response...this is exactly the kind of stuff I was talking about.

Now I'm just irritated...the thread has truly lost it's original purpose...and I'm returning back to the recovery board...where things aren't so hostile.... for WS AND BS alike.

I've been coming to these boards for 8 months...and I've never seen the hostility I've read here.... NEVER. And there have been WS on these boards...for quite some time...and more than a handful have earned a BOAT LOAD of respect from every single BS on the boards. So I don't think a FEW days should reflect the boards in general.

Geez.... so sad. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

People here think it's funny to call the OP names and to attack one another,

[b]people don't think it's funny... people hold great restraint in that department... [/b]

Did you read the voting poll on whether or not 2long should continue to call his OP ratmeat or not? The replies to that poll make me feel sick.

People here do not hold great restraint in that department.

And yes it is a public forum, but is it to be a forum where only the angry and betrayed are heard and recognized?

And that is the overall attitude of the majority of the people who tend to post the most here, if it weren't than you would have more people like Kiwi, and KY and Sadfww and many others who have either left or who are quiet most of the time posting.

And as far as attacking, there was an awful lot of that going on yesterday, people attacking star*fish, people attacking Mel, people attacking me for asking that they not attack others.

Did you read Noodles post on what WS deserves? And the replies of all the other posters?

<small>[ November 02, 2004, 10:05 PM: Message edited by: weaver ]</small>

1312 posts of mine...

one post speaking specifically of a name given to a person who has mad a man's life torture...
(of which he chooses to be part of...and i tell him that every 100-200 posts or so....) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

In the bigger picture weaver...little time is spent villifying...
Though I did once suggest to Terrified when her daughter was snow-white that her husband should dress a grumpy.....

for God's sake around here every post is scrutinized to be called in by the judging police...if you dare say boo to anyone...

Did you read Noodles post on what WS deserves? And the replies of all the other posters?

nope didn't read it...thought it sounded to offensive...so I skipped it...

and that one post..noodles...
and 2longs one post..
do not define this board by a long shot..

ark

This was only a suggestion borne out of a desire avoid situations like yesterday.

I guess there are a lot of thick skinned people out there who are able to read such posts and not be hurt. I for one am not that thick skinned and would be vry hurt by some of the posts here. And when I early in my recovery, I was particularly fragile. I know I am a betrayed spuose, but I also saw the pain in my husband after all this hit the fan. At the time, I felt he deserved his pain. If he as a stranger had come to me for help, I don't know that I could have set my own hurt aside to help him constructively. I probably would have attacked him as being symbolic of the cause of my own pain.

But then he would have missed some chance of someone maybe getting through to him or steering him towards the right path.

Anyway my aim in this suggestion was not to cause trouble. I guess I was trying to brainstorm ideas such as when negotiating, where you love every idea for a while and then either adopt it or cast it aside if it doesen't measure up.

So I guess based on the reponses it is not a good idea, so point taken
C&S

ARK
I have great respect for you and I agree that you treat all parties to affairs, marriages equally. I agree that the hard truths need to be told, rather than allowing each other to just wallow in pain and self pity.
I do however believe that there is a repectful way to spell out a truth and ther are in a minority of cases real personal attacks here. You in my opinion are respectful in the way you deliver a hard piece of adviice. Twyla was able to do the same and I also had great admiration for her. You remind me a lot of her. At first I'll read something you have posted and even if I can't see you point it makes me think.

I think I try and post with repect myself. I am not so good at delivering the hard truths. I am terrified of conflict and have had to work hard on that. Maybe that is why when events such as yesterday occur on here it upsetes me. Maybe I haven't really grown as much as I thought I had.

But I don't think that we can speak for everyone. I see posts here that are attacking and I see disrepectful judgements and I see a lot of fragile, hurt people getting even more hurt.

This site was a great support to me when I first found myself here. Even though not a prolific poster I read a lot and got support.

If I had come here for the first time yesterday and read here, I doubt I would have stayed and I am a betrayed spouse. This forum used to be so positive and encouraging.
C&S

People who have affairs get immense enjoyment and gratification from them. Over time the view that the affair was a good and enjoyable thing seems to fade in the minds of many or most FWS.

They associate OP with pleasure and love for a long time , and consider then deserving of resepect from their BS.

A BS has absolutely none of the positive associations of the affair. The BS has only badness and ill.

If I had been raped I would not be expected to refer to my rapist in affectionate or even polite terms.

My Marriage was raped by OM in collusion with my FWW. No less. I FEEL raped.

I am prevented by my love and by the proven path to the recovery of my marriage of avoiding LBs from saying what I think about OM and the 'acts of love' he enjoyed with my FWW so I say them here and very mildly indeed.

Some of you FWS would seem to have we BS behave like superhuan saints in repressing our humanity as we work thorugh the mess of our lives.

Any readers of my posts would see that I have admitted my part in allowing my marriage to become unsatisfying for both of us pre-A. They would also see my genuine care for and appreciation of the FWS on here who give so selflessly of their own experience to all who ask.

Please do not expect saintly behaviour from me - I'm just a sad jock trying to rebuild our lives from teh dry sand left after my wifes affair.

I love and appreciate the FWS who give so selflessly on here.

The site would be nothing without them.

But please, you must understand that BS cannot think well of OP and the A, in the same way as you cannot HELP thinking that way for a time at least.

Please reconsider your position re: this foum.


{{{{FWS}}}}

(((((weaver))))) and (((((others))))) who are having similar feelings.

Let me first say that if you think a break is needed from the system, then by all means take one. I have taken several breaks from the system in the past 2.5 years. It can be draining and there can be a time when one has to reevaluate their own marriage and whether or not continued presence on the system is helpful or hurting to their own recovery. Make no mistake about it, THE most important reason for anyone to be here is to first get help in recovering their own marriages. AFTER someone is well into recovery, they may be able to help others by returning some of the gift that they received. Until then, a desire to help motivates many, but the "control" on the emotions and the "personalizing" of many comments is tenuous at best and things can be said that might not be said under "normal" circumstances.

There is no question that BS's and WS's have some similar things to deal with, but they also have some markedly different things to deal with in the process of recovery. Thus, a given post can be seen or "felt" differently by each person depending on whether they are BS or WS, and at what stage in recovery they happen to be.

So with that, let me address a couple of things from your post;

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Did you read the voting poll on whether or not 2long should continue to call his OP ratmeat or not? The replies to that poll make me feel sick.

People here do not hold great restraint in that department.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, I have not read the poll and I am very familiar with 2Long's moniker for the OM in his life. I also understand (as personally hurting as it is to me) that many WS's, my wife included, see their OM or OW as a "good person."

Especially in the case of most female WS's, there is a strong emotional attachment before there is sex. That "attachment" is both part of the justification for the affair and a lingering part of the "fog" that hangs around, sometimes for a long time, even while trying to recover the marriage. That "feeling" belongs to the BS, but a part of it is "reserved" for the OP. "Forsaking all others" means simply NO involvement of any kind, emotional or physical, with anyone other than your spouse. Recovery can, unfortunately, take a long time to get back to that commitment. Until it does, the BS IS going to be hurt by the simple knowledge that they are NOT fully recovered yet and that some "part" of their spouse still "belongs" to another.

Weaver, can a "good man" hurt others? Sure. Can a "good man" do something that forever changes another's perception of him? Sure. Can a "forgiven" person still be told "I no longer want you in my life? Sure. Can a repentant rapist give a woman back her pre-rape sanctity? No. Can a repentant OP give a marriage back that which was willfully taken from it? No.

They CAN change their lives from today forward, but they cannot "turn back the clock" and make it so things never happened.

If a person does NOT repent, should they be forgiven? I happen to think not. God does not forgive without repentance because if He would, there would have been no need for Christ. Can we choose to "forgive" even those who harm us and are not repentant? Yes, at some level we can, but not in the truest sense of the term "forgiveness." To forgive as God has forgiven us is to "make them pure as snow" in our eyes BECAUSE of their having Christ in their lives. Without that(surrendered their life to Christ) they are controlled by Satan and there are only two sides in the spiritual battle, God's and Satan's.

So let me tell you that I have had many "terms" and "thoughts" about my wife's OM (who by the way is still intruding in our recovery after 2.5 years). Not one of those thoughts or terms is "good." Oh sure, by some human standards her OM is "good" and helpful and kind and...fill in all the usual monikers. But "where it counts" he is baselessly selfish, out for his own needs and "to He!! with everyone else."

Weaver, if you could see the "dark side of my soul" when it comes to what I think of this "destoyer," you would think that I am satanic myself. It IS by the grace of God that I have been able to turn over "vengeance" to the Lord and not acted on my own. This "good person" did his level best to destroy my wife's faith, our marriage, our family, my wife's relationship with her family, my wife's relationship with our children ("Oh, they'll get over it" he said). Yes, I know my wife's "part" in it. But the primary difference is that she chose God and repentance in the end. Should the OM ever accept Christ, I as sure he would then seek my forgiveness. At that time I would grant it, but I would also still enforce the consequence of No Contact for the rest of his life.

Weaver, there are none "good" but God. I know I'm not, but I try (not always successfully) to be surrendered to God's will and to keep mine "in check" when my emotions scream that being obedient it "too hard" or "unfair!"

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And yes it is a public forum, but is it to be a forum where only the angry and betrayed are heard and recognized? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, weaver, it's not. However, what do you really expect to find on a board that is awash with newly betrayed and early in recovery folks? Emotions ARE raw and nerves are drawn to the point of breaking on the JFO and General Questions II boards.

It's WHY for almost 2 years I almost never read or posted on those forums. I was not ready to handle those emotions without it personally affecting me, sometimes to a greatly negative extent. I restricted my posting to the Recovery forum, where people, by and large, ARE working at recovery and working at getting through the intensely painful parts associated with affairs.

If you find yourself in a similar category, may I suggest you do something similar and restrict your posting and reading to the more "sedate" Recovery forum?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And that is the overall attitude of the majority of the people who tend to post the most here, if it weren't than you would have more people like Kiwi, and KY and Sadfww and many others who have either left or who are quiet most of the time posting.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">weaver, many have come and many have gone. Many lurk and for whatever reason don't post, or post very little. By far the preponderance of posters are those who are "new" to infidelity and recovery. There are raw emotions in abundance and hurtful things can be said.

In some respects it is yet another consequence of adultery. It is unlikely that anything would ever be said IF there had been no affair. It is unlikely that anyone would BE here were it not for an affair. But PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY is operative here too. Both in trying to restain our tongues (fingers as we type) AND in trying to determine which forum is "best" for us at our particular stage of recovery.

Think of it this way, if it helps, one of the reasons we stress Marriage Counseling is to have an uninvolved, unemotionally invested person to help both spouses with the tough issues. They are "expected" to restrain emotions in their responses and guidance. But here, you have the "participants" trying to "play counselor." With a very few exceptions (like Cerri (Penny)), none of is a trained counselor. We are the "hurt and injured animals" who are trying to heal but who will "snap" easily if we feel more pain.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And as far as attacking, there was an awful lot of that going on yesterday, people attacking star*fish, people attacking Mel, people attacking me for asking that they not attack others. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay, I'm not entirely sure what "attacks" you are referring to. I know in my case, I "took on" star*fish on her thread warning Wayward Spouses that ALL posters were going to drag them through the mud and be hurtful and unfeeling toward them. I disagreed with her. While some may do so because of their own pain and "lashing out" at someone other than their own spouse, the vast preponderance of posting is both helpful and understanding. Not "tolerant" of fog or lies or behavior that is clearly harmful...but most willing to help those who are truly seeking help for a changed life and a recovered marriage.

Understand that I think star*fish has been a tremendous help to many. I only took issue with the "blanket" indictment that she chose to assign to all posters, especially to Betrayed Spouses, as being a "danger" to Wayward Spouses who might post here. As I have said before, none of us is "perfect" or "right all the time."

I personally saw no problem in objecting to her blanket statement any more than I would object to a WS who thought they could remain "friends" with an OP while their BS is in agony over the betrayal. There are those who might disagree with me, but that's simply how it is. We each view infidelity and recovery differently and through the prism of our own situation. Some commmon ground exists, and some marked differences can exist. But ultimately it is OUR OWN marriage that takes precendence and not the advice or opinions of others.

The emotional load can be huge. So sometimes a break from the system IS best. Sometimes we need to "step back from the individual trees" in order to better see the "whole forest."

God bless and grant you continued healing in your recovery. I hope to see you, and the others who choose to take a break, around the forums some time.

I have been reading a lot of what everyone here has been saying.

Now I am a FWW , recent one so a lot of this is so raw to me & I am going to be very frank & honest so PLEASE don’t be offended I’m not trying or meaning to be nasty to anyone.

I agree that a forum for WS would be GREAT, it does not have to be private as I think we should have it open for comment, but it means you could ask someone who you believe has crossed the line to post on another forum. Its at least unlikely you will get a lot of similar posts anyway.

However, I do know that for me I do not take too much of what BS say to heart as I realise they are full of pain & hurt and many times say things here they cannot say to their WS , they vent. I didn’t understand that at first and was hurt at first. Now I know what they are doing and I take from their posts what I want and leave the rest.

But I agree they drive away first timers, they did to me. It was Aussie who persuaded me to come back not anyone here. And I was a bit anxious in doing so.
That’s why I think a separate forum as a start off place for WS could help.

As for our BS opinions on the OP, well do you think I like having my judgement or lack there of rubbed in my face? Thank you but I am doing that by myself very well thanks!!!

My H thinks the OP is low sneaky SOB on his good days. I will not post what he calls him on other days. Do I like that?? NO
DO I like seeing it here ? NO
But I grudgingly accept it here because frankly, it is what most BS to a greater or lessor extent think of the OP. Just don’t ask me to like it ok?

My MC/IC explained it very clearly to me. The BS who wants to save the M and is having a bad time coping HATES, LOATHES, and to put it in Aussies crude words, ‘ he would not p*ss on him if he was burning’ . does this because he cannot ‘HATE’ me the WS, so he ‘HATES’ the OP instead.
Like so much the intensity reduces in time.

I joke about this on the forums because I don’t have a good way of saying ‘p*ss off’ to my H. And to be brutally frank, I would rather have him ’hate’ my OP right now than me.

But even so, understanding all of this it still damn well hurts at time.

I honestly don't think anyone here is expected to be a saint or refrain from expressing their feelings of pain/disappointment/anger...even in graphic detail. I just sincerely hope, that as much as possible...the expression of those feelings is centered on *I* statements...and not directed at other posters. If I said for instance that "When my husband cheated on me, I was so hurt and so angry that I wanted to drag him in the middle of town and set him on fire." that would be about how *I* feel. I don't think anyone would be offended that I felt that way. But if I told someone else that "*you* deserve to be dragged to the center of town and set on fire" that's completely different. If I said that "When *I* found out, that even my husband's death did not feel like sufficient compensation for my pain", I think people would clearly understand that. However, a declaration that "Even killing *you* is not enough" that becomes very personal and very harmful. Then, it isn't about me...it's about using someone else as a surrogate for my pain. The post in question was filled with "you, you, you"....which is quite hard not to misunderstand. Even if those sentiments had been communicated in a way that expressed how a BS who just found out "could/might" feel....I doubt seriously that there would have been much of an uproar at all.

My impression is that most of the BS’s posting here is understanding and tolerant of the feelings and inner struggles of a WS, BUT then there is usually one or two ‘rotten apples’ between all these good and caring people with nasty, snotty and insensitive remarks who scared of WS’s from this board. I don't think a seperate board for the FWS's would be necessary if this wasn't the case, but it is the nasty and insensitive people like this who makes a separate board for the FWS's necessary. If these insensitive and nasty remarks is coming from a BS who is still very early recovery and new to this board, I can understand, but I have seen some FWS’s scared of from this board by BS’s who are long in recovery and suppose to know better and suppose to have developed some sensitivity, emphaty and understanding.... This is unacceptable behavior from a BS who view him or herself as a ‘veteran’ of this board. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> One specific FWW I still remember who was scared off from this board was Broken Vessel… She is a sincere and good person who have strayed. She was in intense withdrawal from the OM and A and in deep depression. At the time she was very fragile, she was in a lot of pain and her emotions was still very raw. She missed the OP but experienced much guilt because of that... She shared her feelings openly and honestly on this board but eventually she stopped posting, unregistered and even deleted most of her post from this board. I still feel sad about this incident and I’m still wondering how she is doing...

Withdrawal from the OP and A is very hard, intense and painful for most WS’s. BS’s know this but most of them don’t want to hear about this. The residual feelings a WS often have for an OP after an A IS very real and the grief IS very painful... Yes, certainly the WS ‘deserve’ the pain because of their own wrong choices and actions, but the pain ‘deserved’ is REAL and EXISTS..it can't be denied by the BS, WS or anyone else! But still...many BS’s can't tolerate this and expect the WS to keep ‘silent’ about their feelings of withdrawal... I have struggled through these residual feelings myself and I think any other FWS will agree with me that it would have been much easier if those feelings could just disappear with the press of a button. Hell, how much easier recovery would be then! But unfortunately it doesn’t work that way! Even if a FWS focus on the M and S and try to rebuild the M, the residual feelings for the OP still exists for some time, but often it is expected from a FWS to ‘sweep this feelings under the rug’ and not talk about it... Even if the WS don't talk about it and keep silent about it, the feelings is STILL there... Tell me, how on earth can a FWS recover and work through these feelings if they are not allowed to talk about it and get it out? Those feelings will not just dissapear in the sky...especially not if the WS is not allowed to talk about it, get it out and work it through. Give me a break!

<small>[ November 03, 2004, 08:31 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

Well, I guess it is about time.

To all those that have help me in the past I would like to say "thank you!"

It is time for this FWS to leave. This place is no longer a safe nor very relavant to folks like me. I guess I can hope that my wife will have an affair of her own so I can drink from the cup of righteous indignation that so many here seem to partake. Many here seem to be enjoying it very much.

If you really feel that your FWS should be burned at the stake, shot, dismembered, etc., why in the world are you still with them? Why don't you just let them go? Let them find someone that does value them . . . and doesn't think they are a POS. It just doesn't make sense.

BSs, I get your point. We are subhuman.

Enjoy your victory.

edited to add . . .

see you over at SYMC

edited again to add . . .
Of course not all BS behave this way in this forum. Some have been very helpful to me and am thankful that they spent some of their precious time trying to help me repair my damaged life.

<small>[ November 03, 2004, 12:13 PM: Message edited by: Comfortably Numb ]</small>

comfortably-numb...

I can't understand that out of the thousands of posts on this site...
how you conclude that a few secluded posts set the tone for this board....

It's NOT that WS spouses feeling are discounted....
in my opinion....

It's is though that in realm of FIXING AND BUILDING a marriage if that is why people are "here".....
feelings aren't necessarily from where the actions should come from.....

being here as long as I have...
I can not advocate that slaying WS is the purpose of this board...by a long shot...

How many BS in the throes of extreme emotion are told over and over again...
let the feeling part go and focus on the action...
BS must think the "collective we" are insane to deny them their perceived rightous indignation which is more and more often than not the exact response from posters attempting to get them focused....

BUT somehow if the same advice is given to WS it is vicious and malicious...I don't get it...
I simply don't.....

infidelity hurts all...
it hurts society
it brings great pain to all......

but to rebuild at some point each one must push through and past the pain...to the other side...

where each person again can be at peace with themselves and their universe....

splitting this board as suggested would create the exact type of board war that you and others say exists here.....

to label all BS as incompassionate is quite a leap....

If we all acted on feelings of hurt and pain in our lives....all marraiges would fail...
all of them....

ARK

I quite agree with Ark.
A lot of WS and BS are here helping each other understand what is going on in their spouses' mind and that is very valuable.
Splitting the forums (or is it fora? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) up would take away that valuable input and perhaps make it more a "WS versus BS" thing, which I would really regret.
It's like forming ghetto's. That brings back some very bad memories. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I don't like anyone getting hit, BS or WS. It doesn't do any good to anyone, better to go for a good work out or buy a punching back if you need to get some anger out of you. But while some seem to have a radar for finding such angry posts, my radar seems to steer me away from such posts. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> So please excuse for not having jumped in there, I surely would have. Any WS having the guts to come here and honestly talk about his/her remorse needs all the help and respect he/she can get, just like any BS who honestly wants to rebuild. Unfortunately some BS seem to think they have the "right" to say or do hurtful things. A problem that goes right back to the days of Christ, as He had to deal with such prejudice too.

Would I be right in assuming the way we treat others here reflects our own M? Reflects the respect we have (or don't have) for our spouse or ourselves? So anyone flaming another person is really telling a lot about themselves and the way they are handling a crisis.

Then again, there are very sensitive people (both BS and WS!) that will take anyone who doesn't agree with them as "agressors" who are "attacking" them, even if this really done in a caring, considerate way. Hey.. I'm not talking about anyone in particular here! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Sometimes it's a phase that people go through, being so hurt and confused they simply can't take it if anyone tells them that MAYBE they could look at things from another perspective. Both BS and WS can go through this phase. Fog, if you will.

betrayedinjersey:
I KNEW I shouldn't have returned to this thread..but it started off REALLY WELL...with the best of intentions. And then it took a slippery turn. And then it got worse. And now this....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I need a place where others will understand the pain not only of the BS but our pain of missing the addiction of the OM and the affair! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you scroll up to my FIRST response...this is exactly the kind of stuff I was talking about.

So having been both the WP and the BP and being a professional who specializes in infidelity let's look at this idea of pain and validating it.

I think we can all agree that an affair is a terribly destructive and unethical choice. If someone ended up "happily ever after" one could, conceivably, make an argument for it being ethically above board. But that's not what happens. Everyone gets hurt - the triangle and the people surrounding those involved. We could even make an argument that infidelity has grim effects on all aspects of life in our culture including our national economy when one factors in the time lost due to obsessing about an affair (on any side of the triangle).

Originally this site was directed primarily at helping BP's understand what they needed to do in order to bring about an end to their mate's affair and then the steps necessary to restore their marriages. Over time and with the explosion in internet use the composition of the visitors who come here has changed. We have far more WP's than we did even a few years ago. That makes for a volatile mix - as we've seen this week in particular.

But if we go back to the original purpose of this board I think we can agree that it is about MARRIAGE BUILDING. Ending an affair, taking the steps to reconcile, and then doing the very hard work of recovery. The addition of a fair number of WP's and FWP's doesn't change that - although we tend to forget it now and again.

That being the case - we need to look at how best to accomplish that goal. We can go about it two different ways. We can stick with the older paradigm of being primarily a place of support for the BP - and not look at or acknowledge the pain of the WP. There's nothing wrong with that (as long as it remains respectful) and we should then let WP's know that they might want to find or start another place of support for themselves.

Or we can shift our internal paradigm toward the idea of supporting the WP through their pain and withdrawal - with the understanding that they cannot work on their marriage until they go through that process. This is a marriage advocating strategy.

Doing so - acknowledging and validating this pain IN NO WAY condones an affair. It only accepts what is. And in doing so creates the space for the WP to be supported in a return to the marriage.

If this galls you, and you cannot conceive of doing such a thing, that is perfectly ok. It may or may not be something you can do in the future and it is possible it is not ever going to be a role you play in advocating for marriage. What is not ok is to disrespect the humanity of another person, no matter what s/he has done or not done.

But, conversely, to deny that the WP has pain, is grieving, and needs to go through a very real process of withdrawal does a significant disservice to the goal or saving and healing marriages. It is tatamount to refusing to acknowledge the need for any addict to go through withdrawal and his or her need for support during that time. Supporting an addict of any type (and infidelity is every bit as much an addiction as drugs, alcohol, gambling, religion, work, etc.) does not condone the addiction itself. More than anything it helps the addict move to a better place sooner than would have happened without support.

The private board that I host allows people to talk safely about the pain they experience. It allows them to grieve. It allows them to struggle with the desire to contact the AP. But not once has there been a hint of condoning an affair. Not once has there been a hint of sentimentality about a lost chance at happiness. Sure - people struggling with a newly ended affair will post that they fear such a thing is their fate. And to the last one - every single person who has been through the ending of an affair and the subsequent withdrawal will encourage them to stay out of contact, to stay in the marriage, and to post when they feel weak.

This private community of people is one of the most respectful I've encountered. They are also highly desiring of wanting to heal their marrriages. The regret they feel is intense. So is their pain. To deny that will only serve to harm their marriages - and our hope to turn the tide against infidelity.

C

Cerri- thank you for that thoughtful, intelligent and compassionate post.