</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What is not ok is to disrespect the humanity of another person, no matter what s/he has done or not done </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And I can say I've never done that.

I've done by part to help WS and BS alike, never casting stones at a WS for their pain associated with the repercussions of their actions. In reality, I'm quite the opposite, encouraging the WS to forgive themselves, to be patient.

What I can't identify with, and just can't "get my arms around"...is how professing how much the OP and the A is being "missed"...helps the Marriage.

To me...it says exactly the opposite.... whatever time a WS spends on the fantasy, the ended A, the missed OP... is time stolen away from the TRUE task at hand..and that IS recovering the marriage isn't it ?

Recovery isn't for the faint of heart, and it's not something that will be successful if both spouses aren't "in it all the way". And how can the WS be "in it all the way" if their is still emotional attachment to the OP consuming their thoughts ?


This is all merely speculation on my part, because as I've stated previously, I can really only base my OWN opinions on my OWN experience, and my OWN FWH. Just like everyone else.

My FWH went through withdrawals from the OW. He had to. His brain was full of dopamine, he craved seeing her and talking to her, because it made him "feel" good.

Once he went through those withdrawals, he was able to come back to the M, fully and completely. Now that he has defogged, the only time wasted on the OW is the time that I MYSELF waste thinking about her.

This is all a process, is it not? Remember how long CV's H went through withdrawals? She had to live with that, up close and personal. And now he doesn't love the OW anymore. That is a process, and things in a process cannot be skipped, I don't think.

What say you, BIJ friend??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

HUGS

Spidey

betrayedinjersey:

What I can't identify with, and just can't "get my arms around"...is how professing how much the OP and the A is being "missed"...helps the Marriage.

I know. I've come to the conclusion that most things marriage are completely counter-intuitive. Really is a pain in the you-know-what if one does this for a living.

To me...it says exactly the opposite.... whatever time a WS spends on the fantasy, the ended A, the missed OP... is time stolen away from the TRUE task at hand..and that IS recovering the marriage isn't it ?

Mmmmm..... let's separate out a couple of things here. Acknowledging and being validated on feelings of pain and loss is not the same as living in the fantasy of 's/he was my soulmate and I'll never be happy without her/him.'

If for some reason I was forced today to give up chocolate forever <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I would undergo severe feelings of loss, withdrawal, and craving. If those who were in a position to support me through those things denied my right to those feelings or tried to rationalize why I should not be feeling that way my natural human inclination would be to state them even more vehemently and more loudly - until I was heard.

That is not the same thing as refusing to look at the need to eliminate chocolate from my life and recognizing the destruction it might have done. I can both miss something and understand its impropriety at the same time.

I think it might have been Harley who drew the analogy between taking a drink of something that tasted wonderful and then finding out it was deadly poison. Spitting it out and wanting to get it entirely out of one's system does not change the fact that the yummy taste still lingers.

But back to this idea of validating in order to allow someone to move on. I would suggest taking the position of observer in any argument - either here or elsewhere - and seeing this dynamic at play. When people and their feelings/opinions are given recognition (not the same as agreeing with them) they are more ready to move on and to hear the opposite pov. But when they are denied, ridiculed, or worse, the natural instinct is to continue to repeat one's pov until feeling heard.

Basic negotiation and child rearing dynamics. Applies to almost all interactions between human beings.

Recovery isn't for the faint of heart, and it's not something that will be successful if both spouses aren't "in it all the way". And how can the WS be "in it all the way" if their is still emotional attachment to the OP consuming their thoughts ?

They can't. Until the A ends and the chemical soup, as Star calls it, leaves the brain there isn't a whole lot the WP can do to reengage in the marriage. So the real question then is - what can we, as marriage advocates, do to encourage that to happen sooner? Instead of encouraging them to repeat over and over again with more and more force the amount of pain and loss they feel - until they believe they are heard (or worse, simply give up and shut down) we can hear, acknowledge, and then gently encourage them to continue to move forward.

This is all merely speculation on my part, because as I've stated previously, I can really only base my OWN opinions on my OWN experience, and my OWN FWH. Just like everyone else.

My personal experiences include working with members on all sides of the triangle.

C

Hey Spidey...
I don't want to be misunderstood. And you know me well enough to know I'm appreciative of the entire spectrum.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is a process, and things in a process cannot be skipped, I don't think </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think I'm really taking a stand on a particular issue..that reared at least once before...and WANTS to come up again. I know you remember what I'm talking about...the thread that seemed to go on forever about the FWW and their ...severe withdrawal from the OM ?

I can remember not partaking in any of that nonsense..but KNOWING...that their BH were reading these posts...just caused unbelievable shock to my system. How awful for these guys..to have to read this stuff !

I remember how awful it was for ONE particular BH...to see the same crap everyday....the comparing NOTES stuff.

Withdrawal...sure...it exists...for different people...at different levels. There is a profound difference between acknowledging it...working THROUGH it...and wallowing in it. And I'm afraid of the wallowers.... just speaking for ME of course.

oh...and by the way...you aren't allowed to exitous ! When it gets too overwhelming...you do the same thing I do...take you butt HOME to the Recovery Forum. It really IS like 2 different forums...doesn't it ?

betrayedinjersey:
the thread that seemed to go on forever about the FWW and their ...severe withdrawal from the OM ?

I can remember not partaking in any of that nonsense..but KNOWING...that their BH were reading these posts...just caused unbelievable shock to my system. How awful for these guys..to have to read this stuff !

Oh yes! Horribly painful and not helpful to the BP. That's why we have a private board. We know that WP needs to go through this process but thta for the BP to read it - ouch.

I remember how awful it was for ONE particular BH...to see the same crap everyday....the comparing NOTES stuff.

Comparing notes on how to get through the day and not call the AP? Great idea. Comparing notes on how wonderful the A and the AP were - absolutely not acceptable.

Withdrawal...sure...it exists...for different people...at different levels. There is a profound difference between acknowledging it...working THROUGH it...and wallowing in it. And I'm afraid of the wallowers.... just speaking for ME of course.

Definitely. Wallowing is never helpful. You can have about 30 seconds to wallow (which is always backwards looking) and then you need to be challenged to move forward -- while still having the fact that it's painful acknowledged.

C

BIJ, I get you, girlfriend. And I LOVE the way you phrase your opinions and thoughts in an open manner. I know sometimes emotions run high here. I just hate reading about people getting flamed. I think there are better ways.

If we didn't share feelings, and exchange ideas, I don't know if I personally would be on the recovery boards! I won't be leaving. I shouldn't have said that. I was being a "drama queen." these boards are too addictive.

See you over in Recovery soon, on our safe and comfy and warm thread. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Just a few thoughts. As much as I hated it, I couldn't deny that my H was going through withdrawal and pining over the woman that caused me the worst pain in my entire life. Until she came into our lives, our M, we were always able to get to the other side of difficult times and be close again. I also realized that he had to go through this. I wanted him to post here and get it out, and hopefully have FWSs help him get through it. I sure as HE%% didn't want to read any of his posts because I knew he'd be writing about grieving OW.

I remember when H was in the height of withdrawal I read some posts from WSs in withdrawal. It caused me to feel so sick, sad, and probably hopeless. I didn't begrudge these people their feelings, but just hearing how they missed the OP was yet another kick in the gut, because I knew that was where H was. During one session with Steve Harley I told him about this. I'm sure I was in one of my "I'm just going to throw in the towel" stages. He told me flat out to stay away from any WS' posts who are going through withdrawal. I did just that from that day forward. Not because I thought those folks were bad, but because it was really setting me back in even wanting to recover.

At some point on MB, in the beginning of my ordeal, someone posted about how the BS shouldn't be so grahic in expressing their feelings, especially regarding the OP. I remember writing something like, "Please don't take away the freedom I have here to vent. To get my feelings out." In the beginning THAT is what kept me somewhat sane, helped me feel not so alone, helped me get out the feelings that come from being betrayed by the one you love and trust.

I find lately on MB that I'm hesitant to state some of my feelings on here. It's only been 9 months, and I know wherever I am is where I am. But at times there even seems to be a judgment for the BS to just move on. So times like now, when I'm not sure I can get over this, I'm hesitant to really let that out. At other times I'm hesitant to let out my somewhat black humor, especially about the OW, which has also helped me through this ordeal.

I guess what I'm saying by this very long post is this. Adultery sucks! The pain is enormous. My H says if he had a clue of the pain it would cause all of us he never would have had an A, no one would. From d-day to recovery it is a long road, with so many feelings. Maybe what we need to do is just censor ourselves in the sense of not reading everyone's threads. Just like I had to not read withdrawing WS posts, people don't have to read my venting posts. I agree we all should be respectful, but do we have to censor our feelings? For me, the people here have been such a blessing, BS and WS alike, because so many of you know what I'm going through. CV

CV55:
What a wonderfully balanced and thoughtful post.

I guess what I'm saying by this very long post is this. Adultery sucks! The pain is enormous.

Yes it does. And yes it is.

My H says if he had a clue of the pain it would cause all of us he never would have had an A, no one would.

Oh yesss..... I often think that the regret the WP lives with is far more haunting than just about anything. And terribly tragic.

From d-day to recovery it is a long road, with so many feelings. Maybe what we need to do is just censor ourselves in the sense of not reading everyone's threads.

Excellent idea.

I agree we all should be respectful, but do we have to censor our feelings?

When people are first finding out they are frantic and panicked and pretty much out of control. That's to be expected. But no matter where you are on the spectrum of finding out to recovery there is a difference between talking about how you FEEL and being disrespectful toward someone else.

For instance, saying, "I can't believe this is happening to me. I'm so angry I want to run away and then I think I want to hurt someone. I'm crying all the time. I trusted him and he betrayed me and I AM SOOOOO PI**ED," is completely acceptable.

So is, "OP knew we were married, trashed his/her own marriage, didn't respect ours, is destroying my kids' home, and I can't stand the sight of him/her. In fact, I wish s/he would drop off the planet and never come back. S/he completely betrayed my trust."

Both of those things - and I'm sure you could add a whole lot more and do it better - are about you and how you feel.

But calling names - slut, whore, *****, sleaze, [censored], (I wonder how many of these will get **'d) is not. It attacks the person and not the action and it is not in any way a discussion of your feelings. It also keeps you stuck in the horror of the affair rather than encouraging you to take proactive steps to protect your marriage and take care of yourself.


For me, the people here have been such a blessing, BS and WS alike, because so many of you know what I'm going through.

Agreed. My MB friends kept me alive through the worst times and made it possible to heal a marriage no one thought would survive.

C

Thanks Cerri! Concerning how I speak of OW, guilty as charged. In fact, I'm sure that a few choice words came out on MB regarding my H also. There were and are times it is even difficult for me to call her OW. Sorry! What I tell my FWS buddies on MB is this. When I let my anger out it has nothing to do with them. It has to do with my very own personal H and OW. I am getting better, but sometimes the only thing I can call her is the "B". Sorry again! I know I'd be breaking rules over on SYMC.

As a side note, thanks for that site and the work you are doing to help people recover from this disaster. Oprah had an A show on the other day. The therapist almost made it seem like it is self-destructive to stay in a M after an A. Maybe that is just the way I took her. The thing is one year ago I thought the same thing. Actually days like today I think that. People like you and Steve give us hope that there really can be a good M after an A. So thanks! CV

See, I had an entirely different experience and didn't really have strong feelings for the OW's. For my husband? That's a different story entirely.

The reason I am so adamant about the need for respect and the very real danger disrespect poses to self, spouse, and marriage is that I do disrespect better than most. An extensive vocabulary and razor sharp wit are not a blessing when they are turned against someone else.

It's taken years of hard work to tame that demon. (And it still gets out of its cage on occassion.) But if I only worked to keep in it check at home and let it roam free elsewhere (such as here) I would fail. As do those who think they can throw temper tantrums at work or on the highway and be calm and respectful at home. The human psyche doesn't work that way.

(Respectfully yours,)

C

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by cerri:
I do disrespect better than most. An extensive vocabulary and razor sharp wit are not a blessing when they are turned against someone else.

It's taken years of hard work to tame that demon. (And it still gets out of its cage on occassion.) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">~LOL~

Made me think of the "Amy letters" .... and I had to <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Try not to be too perfect Cerri .... your imperfections are very interesting traits.

Pep

Cerri - Thankyou for your thoughtful post. I have posted here quite a bit and seen how poorly WS's (especially WW) are treated at times. Now when I post to them, I advise them to go to saveyourmarriagecentral.

Suzet - I email brokenvessel, and she is doing very well, no thanks to this board. What really got me was how cruelly she was mocked because of her postings to JL.

Also not posting anymore is CrazedLove, RAP, and Bostenor. Plus there have been many others who I can't remember.

believer,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have posted here quite a bit and seen how poorly WS's (especially WW) are treated at times. Now when I post to them, I advise them to go to saveyourmarriagecentral.

Suzet - I email brokenvessel, and she is doing very well, no thanks to this board. What really got me was how cruelly she was mocked because of her postings to JL.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't understand,,,If you dislike this place so much,,why stay? Seems terribly disrespectful to me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I keep posting here because this place has saved me. I am the BS. But I still think that the WW's here are not treated very well. Sorry.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have posted here quite a bit and seen how poorly WS's (especially WW) are treated at times </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Believer, I think everyone here, is treated poorly from time to time. BS included... we've recently been accused of self righteous attitudes.

For every WS you've named that no longer posts on the board, I wonder how much really has to do with this board.

As I recall...RAP.... was never treated poorly, I saw many BS exercise courtesy and kindness during some of their most difficult times.

Many Mbers...both WS and BS reached out to them both..and we think of them always. And her BS...doesn't post here so much either... not because he was chased away either...but maybe this board wasn't really going to help them. We have to accept this board isn't going to help everyone. It doesn't mean that we haven't done our part..it just means this wasn't a good avenue for them.

Just because someone leaves the board, don't assume that the board "drove them away". For every WS that you think has been driven from the boards...I can name 2 more that have stayed strong..and become posts I look forward to. Especially a few of our newer FWWs.... SadFWW, Myrta...to name a few. (Don't mean to single anyone out..forgive me...) but they are strong women...and they take responsibility..and they take the 2X4 they get from time to time...and they RUN with it..knowing the best interest of their marriage is all that really counts.

Like I said earlier...recovery isnt't for the faint of heart...and it's a tough road. Some people just won't see the proverbial light we hope they see...because it's all just our opinions anyway.

On my part...I love to read what the FWHs have to say..because MAYBE...just maybe..it's something my own H feels.... and hasn't expressed to me.

Don't you think the same works for the WS as well ? Maybe just maybe... reading something another BS writes..sheds some light on what their OWN BS is feeling. I wonder how many of us TRULY let our WS know how badly this really feels ?

I believe there is a lot of transference that takes place here, and I've wacked a BS or two myself for bombarding a NEW WS with questions and harshness.....out of desperation trying to understand what is happening to their WS. They are unable to lash out at their own WS... because that wouldn't be in the best interest of their recovery..so sometimes...it comes out here...and it's a vent maybe...but it's out... nobody usually takes offense and we go on merry little way.

So I'll ask you.... because I keep reading this point advocated VERY strongly by you...should MB be for BS only ? Because you surely don't think it's a good place for the WS.

And on that side of the coin... what purpose will the board serve..if only BS are here ?

EVERYONE has to exercise a little more tolerance and kindness. We should never implement the "flight" rule. What is that saying ? When it gets too tough... leave ? That leads me right back to the recovery. In recovery...you beter BE tough, that's the hardest work to be done.

Cerri, if you're still hanging out on MB I'll tell you why the OW gets more of my wrath than H. Believe me he has gotten his share too over the months. It bothers me that I knew her for 4 yrs. Granted that doesn't even compare to a BS's pain whose BF had an A with their H. But that fact bothers me greatly. It bothers me that she knew my boys and didn't give a rat's A## that their lives would be torn apart. She actively went after my H(she was his office manager) the year my 15 yr. old nephew died, my uncle, H's dad became increasingly sick and died(the A happened one month after FIL's death), and my dad's failing health and death. She was screwing my H while my dad was dying in the hospital, and wrote him a love letter stating how wonderful the sex was. Am I pissed at my H? You bet! But he tried to stop it several times, and she always told him she'd be there for him physically when he wanted her. That they weren't having an A because they were in-love. (That was my personal favorite) That our boys would be just fine if we D because we brought them up in such a stable environment. I could go on and on. I only treated this woman with kindness over the yrs. I knew her.

Concerning letting my anger out here at times. I have toned it down as the months have gone by. If it weren't for my venting on MB I would have LBed the crap out of H. It really helped to get it out here, have people talk me through the pain, and 2x4 me when I needed it. So it really didn't make me more angry at home. Anyway, just a different perspective. Take Care!

BIJ, good post! I hope the FWSs keep posting. Some of them have helped me greatly and I hope at times I offered them something back. If nothing other than my appreciation.

believer,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I keep posting here because this place has saved me. I am the BS.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Me too which is why I get quite defensive when I hear so many negative derogatory comments about MB while continuing to post.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But I still think that the WW's here are not treated very well. Sorry. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have yet to see too many posters here that are handled with kid-gloves,,FWS or FBS. It's not always easy to take a serious look at yourself and examine what part you may have played in the breakdown of your marriage. FWS are not nor should be the exception.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Concerning letting my anger out here at times. I have toned it down as the months have gone by. If it weren't for my venting on MB I would have LBed the crap out of H. It really helped to get it out here, have people talk me through the pain, and 2x4 me when I needed it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OKAY OKAY OKAY..I CONFESS...YES YES..I HAVE THROWN A 2X4 AT YOU FROM TIME TO TIME !! <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I'm hanging my head in shame..disgust...oh damn. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Glad you liked the post.....it took me awhile to put coherent thoughts together...but POOF...and it magically appeared <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I don't think the FWWs are going to flee so quickly..... many have already dug their heels in ...and are here for the long haul.

It's like that whole chicken or egg thing you know.... one can't exist without the other.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by betrayedinjersey:
<strong>Just because someone leaves the board, don't assume that the board "drove them away".</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes this is true, but this was definitely the case with Broken Vessel. She WAS driven away by some of the posters on this board...and it’s a shame.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>As I recall...RAP.... was never treated poorly, I saw many BS exercise courtesy and kindness during some of their most difficult times.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">RAP left the board as a direct result of Broken Vessel’s poor treatment on this board… Just as Broken Vessel, RAP was also in withdrawal, very fragile and early in recovery and she didn’t feel safe posting here anymore after what happened to Broken Vessel. I think if I was in the same stage of withdrawal and recovery at the time than them, I also wouldn't posting here anymore. Luckily while I was in early withdrawal, I mostly lurked here and didn’t post. I felt too vulnerable at the time to post my feelings openly and honestly and after what happened to Broken Vessel I'm glad I didn't...

The ONLY reason I’m still posting here is:
1) to use my experience to help others and
2) because I still learn from some wise and thoughtful posters on this board.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by believer:
<strong> Suzet - I email brokenvessel, and she is doing very well, no thanks to this board. What really got me was how cruelly she was mocked because of her postings to JL.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Believer, thanks for this news, I’m glad she’s doing well! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I would like to e-mail her. Is there a way I can get hold of her address?

Suzet

<small>[ November 04, 2004, 02:41 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yes this is true, but this was definitely the case with Broken Vessel. She WAS driven away by some of the posters on this board...and it’s a shame.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Suzet...perhaps in BV's case...this could be true...but I'm still leaning toward it being a personal decision. It really depends on the person....look at dreamcatcher...she got beaten up in her first week or two...and I mean HARSHLY beaten up...yet..she is still here.

And ...I think if the same thing happened to YOU... I don't think you'd have gone either...I've read several of your posts. If this was something I saw repeatedly, I'd feel differently, but I still lean towards it being about the person...and not the board.