</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> Do you think it's appropriate for a married man or woman to have a close friendship with a person of the opposite sex who is NOT a friend of the spouse as well?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Absolutely not! I’ve been in such a friendship myself and I will never allow that again… The possible pain and damage is just too huge. It’s best to avoid such friendships.

I agree with the following Scdazed posted:

Friendships with members of the opposite sex can be dangerous and should be limited to persons 1) that both spouses know OR 2) that are family members OR 3) that are part of a couple that you both know

And if you’re talking to a friend of the opposite sex where your spouse is not present, always make sure you talk about things or say things you would feel comfortable about if your spouse was present and could hear the conversation.

BUT…

If we look at this article on how affairs begin and the example of J.R, we’ll see there is still a danger even if the person is a friend of both spouses… It’s possible for a spouse to develop romantic feelings for a mutual friend of someone of the opposite sex even before there is any inappropriate acts or discussions going on... In this example in the link above, the best friend of R.J.'s husband didn't intend to meet her emotional needs whenever he talked to her. He was just being friendly, and carried on conversations the way he would with almost anyone. But whether he intended to or not, whenever he talked with her, he deposited scores of love units in her love bank.

Therefore it’s important for partners to stay cautious, fill each other’s EN’s, keep communication channels open and be honest and open with each other about their feelings etc. In the example above R.J. failed to communicate with her H about her unmet need for conversation and she wasn’t honest & open to him about the feelings she has developed for their mutual friend.

Andrew,

My H also has many female friends and I have male friends. I think its ok as long as they are equal friends to both of you, and as long as you don't discuss private details about you R with them. I think problems can arise when they are good friends your S only, and you barely know them.

In the past my H has had several female friends who he would spend time with without inviting me, and sometimes this hurt and upset me. I felt he disregarded my feelings about this over several years.

In my case, however, I was the one who had the ONS. I think that my H's disregard for my feelings about this and other issues were part of what contributed to our (from MPOV) unhappy R in which I made the bad decision to have a ONS.

I guess my overall feeling is that if you feel threatened by her behaviour, and she wants to stay M'd, then she needs to respect your feelings no matter what she thinks is 'right', and that anything other than this is just asking for a troubled R in the long term.

AndrewA-

Part of the reason for the continued "secrecy" of her relationship with this male friend is my fault. Here's the story:

My wife is a full time college student and at the beginning of this semester she mentioned that she had most her classes with this guy that her and her friend both thought was hot. This was only about 1 month after D-day.

As the weeks went on she talked about this guy alot cause she had befriended him and had started to get to know him. He is a great student apparently and he helped her with her classes a lot. The whole time she kept arguing with me that she really didn't think that he found her attractive. I know that this BS cause I know how guys think. From what she said that he said and the amount of time that they spent together....it was obvious to me that he did like her like that in some way or another.

Also, as she was getting to know him, she confessed to me that she had not told him that she was married. She has this theory that guys her age won't want to be friends with her if they know that she is married. They get scared off. So typically she doesn't tell them that at least until she get to know them and she doesn't fear their abandonment anymore. I told her how much that bothered me and that I felt uneasy about their relationship. She said that I was overworrying and that it was not like that. They were just friends.

Well, it went on like this for almost 2 months until it came to a head. About 3 weeks ago, my wife had asked me if she could spend the night with some friends for a girls night. This bothered me but I agreed to let her go. She said that she would be back early the next morning. Well, that morning it's 10:30am and I still hadn't seen or heard from her. Crazy things started running through my head. I panicked. I looked up this guy's address in the university phonebook and decided to check and see if she might be there. All the while I kept telling myself that it was ridiculous but I needed to feel sure about it.

Well....when I got to the guy's apartment...sure enough...there was her car. I was livid. Not only had she not called me to say she was going to be late...she was over at a guy's place that she knew I wouldn't approve of. I should have just left it at that...went back home....waited for her to come one and then confronted her about it. But instead, I let my anger get the best of me.

First I wrote her a letter that told her that I was shocked and very upset....that she had betrayed my trust again and that I didn't want to go on like this. I implied that I suspected that she was cheating on me again. I went back to the guy's apartment and put the letter in her car and went back home....expecting a phone call or something...

Well... 3:30pm rolls around and still no hide or hair of her. I was livid. I went back over to the guy's apartment to confront her. I was planning on calling the guy's phone # and asking her to come out and talk to me. I stopped at the apartment complex office to use the bathroom first. When I came out, I saw her car going by with her "friend" in the passenger seat. I lost it. I got in my truck and proceeded to tail her. She called me on my cell and told me to stop. She eventually got me to stop following her by promising to call me within the hour and then she would explain. She went out to eat with the guy and several hours later, came home. Her story was that she just went over there to do some homework problems. That she hadn't been ready to come yet. She was very mad that I went over there and then followed her and went "psycho". She said that after she found the letter, she didn't want to come home right away. So she hung out and then asked the guy to go with her to get something to eat.

I asked her why she didn't call and she only said that she knew I wouldn't want her to go over there by herself. But she thought it was ok since they were just doing homework and nothing else. She proclaims that nothing happened b/n them. I want to believe her but I don't know...it's still hard.

Well...anyway, since then....of course, now the guy does know that she is married. She didn't explain anything to him about why I might of did what I did....didn't say that she hadn't called....didn't tell him anything about our problems...so naturally the guy now thinks I'm just crazy and she seems content to let him think that for now. I told her how much I need to meet the guy and get to know him in order to feel more comfortable about her hanging out with him.. But she says that I've blown it for right now. She says that he is not interested in meeting me cause he "doesn't want to get involved in that drama." Well, news flash....whether he meets me or not....he IS involved cause he continues to have a relationship with my wife! She says she doesn't know when she'll be ready to introduce us.

She talks to him on the phone, in class, and/or on Instant Message almost daily. So whenever she is gone for a long period of time or can't explain being late in a reasonable way...I always suspect that she is with him. I can't help it. Maybe she really is being faithful to me physically. But she doesn't admit that she is being unfaithful emotionally. She talks about the "funny thing that he said or did" several times a week. It really hurts me that she is having so much fun with this other guy and not with me.

My wife patronizes me sometimes by saying things like, "So you don't want me to have any friends? Fine I'll just not talk to him anymore and only talk to you." She says it really sarcastically implying how ridiculous she thinks it is and how I'm punishing her and not being fair. Oh, also my wife has always said that she needs guy friends.....she doesn't get along with most girls cause they are too much drama....she likes being friends with guys a lot better cause they are more down to earth and she can just be herself.

I think what it really comes down to is that she craves attention from males. Being around them, flirting with them and them flirting with her boosts her self esteem and she is addicted to that. Any suggestions on what I should do? Should I continue to let it go on like this? I'm suspecting her all the time now. Just this week she went to a movie by herself for "me time". My wife has NEVER gone to a movie by herself before. Plus, she came home well after the movie ended and she should have been home. I suspect that she went with him and had to take him home. I asked her and she denies it. Said that she stopped a couple of times on the way home to get food and then water. Why didn't she get them both on one stop? That sounds kinda lame to me....

I don't know what to do...

SC,

That is a tough situation. I'm sure what to say, except that I think you CAN'T let this go on. (By the way...I'd have done the SAME thing you did with regard to the other guy.)

I guess if it were my wife, I'd make itvery clear to her that I find the relationship inappropriate and threatening - and that if she had any regard for me or for our marriag, she'd end it. Then, I think you are at the point where you have to make the potential consequences clear to her.

Meanwhile, try to see if there is a way that you can fill some of those needs you mentioned. Can you show her more attention? Maybe you can find ways to flirt with her - via email or IMs or when you go out or something?

In any case, I'd be highly skeptical of her story about doing homework with this guy. She needs to make herself more accountable to your marriage. I'm not sure how you get to that point. Others can speak to this better than I can, but...maybe it's time for a Plan B-type arrangement?

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<small>[ November 04, 2004, 10:15 AM: Message edited by: AndrewA ]</small>

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<small>[ November 04, 2004, 10:18 AM: Message edited by: AndrewA ]</small>

I hear ya....My counselor agreed tho, that a Plan B is initiated, with my wife immaturity and personality....it will pretty much spell the end of the marriage. So I'm extremely hesitant to take that route yet.

SC...it may well spell the end of the marriage. But..I think you have to ask yourself how much of a marriage you currently have. How much longer can you live like this?

I know you want to fix this. She's going to have to cooperate. If she doesn't..you are in for a lot of heartache.

hi guys-

My H is at the beginning (I think) of a possible A due to opposite sex friendships. He has been in contact on a regular basis ( how reguler- I don't know yet) with a former co-worker. I have met her once at her place a couple of years ago. I have recently found her number on both our home and cell redial lists (One call I know of which occurred after I had gone to bed one night). How do I approach my H now and ask him to stop his friendship with this woman. (I can see the scenario in my head right now and it doesn't look good). The more and moreI think about it I think an EA has already started and I've been waiting for a mistake by my H to prove a PA is happening. I am at my wit's end.

Well, I guess I've decided to go ahead with a modified plan B. My wife and I were talking on IM. I wanted to talk about some problems but wife got mad and said that I needed to stop trying so hard. Give her some space....yada yada yada. So I asked her, "What do you want? to just be roomies for a while?" And she responded, "for now". "Roomies that sleep together." I don't know if I can do that. We'll talk about it. I agreed to not bring up our relationship for a few weeks....until it is time for her to start to come to counseling with me. She had agreed to come at the 3rd or 4th visit.

If you have read any of my posts, you know that I am concerned that if I do a full fledged Plan B (complete separation) the marriage has little chance of surviving. My wife's immaturity and personality tells me that as well as she herself has told me that. She has said that if she ever moved out, it would be for good.

So I am going to try a modified Plan B. We will live together and be roomies but that is it. She doesn't know yet but I intend on stopping trying to fill her EN's. Cause we're roomies and that it. That's what she says she wants. Then she can finally get the "space" that she says she needs. All yall please pray for us. Pray that God will speak to her heart and open her up. I don't know how this is going to turn out.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

Yeah, I got some thoughts. Your W is 22 and a college student. I assume you have a job, make the payments, etc. So, you are going to just be "roomies" fill no EN and expect to work things out? You giving her "what she wants" is not the way to work this out.

So, I'm her. I get free room and board, no interference from my H, and a fallback position.

I sure hope you are not paying for her college as well.

There is no way you will be able to keep up that roomie arraingement either, you care too much that is why you are here.

Either plan A, which I think she is too immature to appreciate, or plan B and stick to it.

Yes, I do have a job and make the payments. You say that I'm giving in and giving her what she wants. I don't know what else to do. She won't budge. At least she is willing to go to counseling in a few weeks. I'll give her these 3 or 4 weeks and see how it goes. Then if she doesn't get serious about working on the marriage or avoids going to counseling, then I will get serious about a real Plan B.

I love her too much....I can't throw her out yet. And no I don't really pay for her school...she has grants and student loans for that.

Well...I have to go to my counseling session...first one with this minister.. maybe I'll find some answers....probably more questions tho... Talk to yall tomorrow

Well.....my wife spent over 3 hours online instant messaging her guy friend...doing homework together. I can understand needing help with homework and stuff. But why do they have to be sooo friendly. I looked over her shoulder several times and saw smiley faces and wink faces from him. And one time he called her "babe". Am I overreacting or do I have a good reason to be uncomfortable with their interactions. I just wish she would let me meet him. I hate her relationship being a total secret from me.

I was very naïve and trusting. I let my H go out with other women and let him and my BF spend a lot of time together because of their mutual hobby. I truely believed they would "never do such a thing"... I didn't even consider the possibility.. boy was I wrong.

I think the Rule of Protection applies here. We have to protect our own vulnerabilities, which might very well mean no intimate, long talks with people of the other sex, especially not about our or their marriage problems. It might also mean not spending any time alone with persons of the other sex.

Every couple and every person has to define for him/herself what their vulnerabilities are. A person that has had an A demonstrates very clearly that they ARE vulnerable to an A and that they failed to protect that vulnerability by staying away from the OP and by confronting the problems in the M instead of running away from them.

A 'modified' plan B will just estrange you and your immature wife.

You will whittle away any feeling she has left for you.

You need to do a full blown plan B to see if she cares for you at all or has transferred her affections to the other in totality.

Did you plan A? Try to meet her needs? Try to spend a minimum of 15 hours a week in her waking company to do things together? You can bet that that is where he is meeting her needs. Time. Lots and lots of it.

She does seem to have relegated you to 'sugar daddy' who is supporting her college pursuits and doesn't need to be true in marriage to.

"Babe" on an IM.......not friendly talk. That is sweet talk from a romantic partner.

I wish you luck in finding your way thru this maze of choices.

SC...you aren't overreacting.

Your wife's school likely has a math lab or some kind of formal tutoring center. You should suggest that she go there - and that she end things with her "friend" right away.

I'm no expert, but..I think you need more than space. I think you need a full-blown Plan B.

I am not ready for a full blown plan B yet. That will be the nail in the coffin and end our marriage I'm sure. I think I will try plan A a little longer. I will keep a log of how much quality time we spend doing things together for the next couple of weeks to see where we are. I will also keep a best guess log of how much quality time doing things together that my wife spends with her "friend". Then I will have more clues and ammunition when I confront her about her spending too much time with him. I have been keeping a log of how often she meets my SF needs for over a month now. It shows where she is lacking in that. Maybe the time log will show something too. Pray for us. I don't know what else to do.

I agree that "babe" is a bad sign. That's what the OM called me in his e-mails! Far too friendly. She must really miss the rush.

SCdazed, my husband has been drawing me closer by making sure that we do all the things we usually like to do. Yes, sometimes it makes him feel like a "doormat", but I appreciate his effort. And it keeps me busy whilst I go through "withdrawl". So we go out, movies, concerts, galleries, shopping. I still disappear into a fog, and he will try to draw me out by asking, "where are you?". At least it starts us talking, at least it reminds me I'm with him. I don't know, maybe you want to try something like this before you become "just friends". Maybe you need some regular trips up to the mountains for joint photography sessions (we live by a lake and walks there help). At least you'll both get some fresh air!

My husband also reminds me that most men are not interested in love and commitment. I tend to agree. Have you referred your wife to this site? She might find some help from some of the other ladies here.

It's hard work from both sides. Don't forget that people with addicitive personalities sometimes struggle with their addictions all their life.

Thanks for your advice... Those are good ideas. I do need to make a better effort to spend quality time with my wife. Maybe we should make it a regular thing to go for a drive in the mountains together every weekend.

No, I haven't told my FWS about this site. Maybe I will once she is willing to start talking about the affair and our problems. She seems to be still in denial or something right now....like she is trying to forget it.