Suzet, I am sorry that you are so angry and bitter, but I do think what is "unacceptable" is calling someone a "rotten apple" because you disagree with them. You run the risk of violating your own principle of "sensitivity" when you say that.

I think you and I have very very different ideas of what constitues "acceptable behavior," thankfully, and we have been through this before. But then, you are not the self appointed arbiter of "acceptable behavior" as much as you would like to be.

It is in no way "acceptable" to sit silently by and say nothing when one is clearly engaging in a destructive thought process. Nor is it helpful to aide and abet a recovering WS in his delusional thinking. That is unacceptable to me and reflects a very shallow understanding of the nature of addiction.

As far as WS being free to "talk about it" I have already responded to this claim numerous times above, but will do so again. A WS is free to say whatever they wish on this forum, however, a BS is also free to object or challenge that opinion.

Myrta I only ever slate my own OM - he is an unpleasant person. I know nothing about other OPs than they have sex with married people but that alone I am sure does not define each and every one of them. After all - my FWW is the OP to OM GF ahd she is and was far more than her infidelity.

My own OM is a grim person though.

If nothing anyone says really has the power to influence how someone will feel..then this is an odd dispute indeed.

Apparently ML and BP felt pretty strongly about what Rachel said re her feeliongs for OM..and in kind she seems to have taken great offense with their characterization, wording, etc.

Question though..Mrta has said that while in an affair..she at least, felt it was beautifull, perfect, and lovely. Sounds pretty good to me. So what ended this bliss? Was it not true? If it was not true then might it be true that the devastation surrounding the affair is caused by the grim ugly reality of the affair? That despite the illusion of beauty..the reality was in fact sleazy animal sex between two liars and betrayers? If that was not the reality..then why ever would a person seek to end such a beautifull comming together?

I agree with ML..and I think that as a recoverred alcoholic [kudos btw..you are one of the few] she knows precisely how good it feels to feed an addiction..and when faced with great shame..how tempting it is to run into the sheltering arms of illusion.

She also knows how dangerous this evasion is. Until we see clearly just what it truly is that we have done..we are a danger to ourselves and to others because we are likely to repeat the offensive behavior. Or fail to put our full efforts into undoing what damage can be undone.

Should a WS who still feels warm and fuzzy about the OP etc voice these feelings? My opinion is that they absolutely should! Especially to their spouses. This is part of radical honesty. However..they should not expect to be able to voice these opinion without incurring the disgust of those betrayed by the same exact actions that they are lamenting the loss of. That is radical honesty as well. So once we all see who we truly are..and where we stand..perhaps we will be in a position to decide if we can live with one another in wedded bliss post affair. Either party may choose not based on dissatisfaction with the responses they get for voicing their honest position. Hey, you can't win them all. Be honest and save everyone the trouble of trying to read each others minds. For the WS..there was never a guarantee that you would be welcomed back into the marriage you abandoned. For the BS..no one promised you a rose garden..the facts were ever before you that your beloved has indeed replaced you already in both mind and flesh.

Life is just full of things we don't want to do..reading dissenting opinions is very nearly the least trouble any of us can expect in life. So what's all the hullaballoo?

--Noodle

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
My father was an alcoholic. He tried to recover. He tried to focus his life without the alcohol. Did he MISS it? YES!!!! Did he wish he could just take a drink when something bad happened to him? He knew that alcohol wasn't the proper way to "escape" his problems, that he needed to face them head on, but it didn't stop the feelings of withdrawal.

It's the same way for a WS. Don't you see what Rachel said? She said -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I need a place where others will understand the pain not only of the BS but our pain of missing the addiction of the OM and the affair!"
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She recognizes the A as an ADDICTION. How on earth is she romanticizing it? She is human & has real feelings of withdrawal & feels the need to voice what her feelings are & get some support from someone who's been there & can give her the encouragement to continue NC.

All I can say is that I'm very glad my H has never posted here. I myself have felt pushed out of the crowd b/c of my views on things & have felt very unwelcomed on more than one occasion. And I am a FBS. I have limited myself to lurking now with all the anymosity I sense lately, except from the true MB friends I have acquired who will be with me forever. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SA, your father has recovered by FACING THE TRUTH about his addiction, not by romanticizing poison. He faced the truth that it was POISON. Successful recovering alcoholics focus on RECOVERY, they don't fantasize about the fine points of drinking.

Because if drinking were all that wonderful, he wouldn't have quit, right?

I assure you when he goes to AA meetings, they don't sit around and regale each other about the wonders of drinking. They talk about RECOVERY.

Now, Rachel spoke of how much she missed her affair and the OM and comdemned Bob for daring to characterize her "sincere" intimate relations as "humping." I am sorry, but however you care to characterize it, that is openly characterizing something very putrid and ugly as beautiful.

<small>[ November 03, 2004, 09:13 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

All of these posts on this thread are designed to keep FWS from leaving MB??? REALLY???

Gee, wonder why they are all leaving. From about halfway down the first page, I have read Disrespectful Judgements - FROM EVERYONE!!!

Characterizing people as being ANYTHING - angry, bitter, misinformed, insensitive, blah blah blah - those are DR's! Not to mention angry outbursts.

I joined Penny Tupy's site yesterday, as well. These boards do not feel like a safe place for me, either. Over on Penny's site, everyone is treated with honor and respect and love and forgiveness. We are ALL human beings. Everyone loses their path in life from time to time - who are we to judge them? Isn't that left to a higher power? A sin is a sin is a sin . . . gossip, lying, infidelity . . .

Who is anyone here to "cast a stone?" HM?

Good grief.

*edited to add, there are many healthy, nonconfrontational, peaceful ways of dealing with a difference of opinion. My H and I try each day to use these ways, rather than pushing and bullying each other around. Sometimes, emotions take over, and things are blurted out in the moment. BUT, this is a written format, with editing buttons. Much easier for me to keep myself in check. Everyone has every right to express their opinion, their feelings. I believe that can and should be done with respect to the other person, just as I practice in my NEW M, that I created using many of the concepts I learned on this forum. What happened to treating each other with that same level of care? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

<small>[ November 03, 2004, 09:19 AM: Message edited by: Spider Slayer ]</small>

uh Spider Slayer....was it something I said?

If so, please accept my humble apology.

Why are affairmongers here on a Marriage Building board?

Why are people actively involved in "breaking up marriages" here on this Marriage Builder board?

Why are people who formerly engaged in affairs and "marriagebreaking" posting on a Marriage Building board?

I think it is simply NUTZ!

Dangabbit Doublepost!

<small>[ November 03, 2004, 09:29 AM: Message edited by: Spider Slayer ]</small>

JUMPING IN JUMPING OUT ,2CENTS

If a WS has found happiness, great sex, love and respect with OP ,,, THEN there is nothing wrong with them leaving ,,, say your peace and be done .

YES they rocked the world of the BS , theres nothing they can do now , damage done ...

JMO if OP is worth thinking about then theres no NEED to be with the BS any more ..

I am not a WS , but with all my heart I belive that if thats what my H missed /wanted then OK so BE IT !

COMING HOME or staying with a BS for anyother reason then YOU WANT AND LOVE AND desire only them is the wrong reason .

This is MB , and I guess if any one comes here WANTING there M ,,, then thay wouldn't still be thinking that the SEX they had with someone else is MAKING LOVE or special or anything but a BIG MISTAKE .

Always been the way I responded to any WS who first comes here or if I respond at all ...

I think the WS'S on this board are great and the BS'S as well ,,, if someone leaves then they are doing so for them self not because they are chased away ...

2oak was never beat up for the way he responded to WS and he was one ,,,

He was very cut and dry N/C and get your head out the BUTT !

I read almost all his posts and everyone loved him ,,, he spoke that way often to other WS's a no excuse kind of CONVERSATION ...

Was it cause he was a WS that it was excepted ?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> uh Spider Slayer....was it something I said? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Heck no, you are on the UPPER half of the first page. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

And who are these "affairmongers?" What is the definition of that? A person who still longs for the OP, but is trying to save their M? A person who is actively involved in the A and just hanging out on MB? About 11 months ago, my H was probably considered an "affairmonger (IF I were making a DJ about him!) - would he have not been welcome here if he had reached out for help in his fogginess???

Is an alcoholic refused entrance to an AA meeting if he has alcohol on his breath? I would seriously like to know that answer to that. Since affairs are like addictions, perhaps having WS on a MB forum IS counterproductive. I don't know. I DO know that I found much comfort from FWS here on this board. And they will be sorely missed.

Maybe everyone needs to go to 'Home' and read the beginning and the ending of affairs.
(Many of you on this thread, though, DO UNDERSTAND and have given remarkably compassionate and understanding messages.)

ALL ARE WELCOME HERE AT HARLEY'S MARRIAGE BUILDING SITE...The faithful as well as the un-faithful spouses.

And Bob's statement about his wife 'humping' with the OM, was NOT disrespetful to ME but to his own wife!

I wish I could take a magic wand and wave away my 'missing' the attention & affection from the OM (phone calls & emails mostly; occassional car rides)

Just as some people can deal with deaths of friends and loved ones better than others; some have more of a stuggle coping...I seem to not be getting over him on 'schedule'.

Why? Because we are all made differently emotionally inside our hearts.

Here is a little of what Harley, the founder of MB says:

"Withdrawal is the emotional reaction to the loss of something that gives great pleasure. It's similar to the feelings an alcoholic has when he makes a commitment never to drink again. It's also similar to the grief that comes from the loss of a loved one. A lover is like alcohol and like a loved one. Not only do unfaithful spouses miss what it was their lovers did, meeting important emotional needs, but they also miss the person they had come to love.

Our most common emotions are anger, anxiety and depression. Symptoms of withdrawal usually include all of these in a very intense form. I usually suggest that anti-depressant medication be used to help alleviate these symptoms. While the most intense symptoms of withdrawal usually last only about three weeks, in some cases they can linger for six months or longer before they start to fade.

It is extremely likely that a commitment to remain separated from a lover will be broken unless extreme measures are taken to avoid it. That's because the emotional reaction of withdrawal is so painful.'

And Bob's statement about his wife 'humping' with the OM, was NOT disrespetful to ME but to his own wife!


Not nearly so disrespectful as my FWW of 18 years humping an aging womanizer in a by the hour motel I was paying for while I babysat.

Sorry MYOS, I can't speak respectfully of such. Should I have called it a 'liason' or 'SF' ? 'Making love' perhaps ?

Sorry can't do it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Spider Slayer:
<strong>

Is an alcoholic refused entrance to an AA meeting if he has alcohol on his breath? I would seriously like to know that answer to that. Since affairs are like addictions, perhaps having WS on a MB forum IS counterproductive. I don't know. I DO know that I found much comfort from FWS here on this board. And they will be sorely missed. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, some groups DO refuse them entrance, especially if they are enebriated. They cause more harm than good when they show up to a meeting like that and they certainly get nothing out of it unless they are sober.

That being said, even if they are allowed to STAY, you can bet your fanny that it is pointed out that they are drinking and they are told to not come back like that. Believe me, we don't pussyfoot around or beat around the bushes in AA. The truth is the only thing that survives in AA and that is why they are so successful in treating addictions.

NOODLE- I did say that, while in the affair I thought everything was the most beautiful thing in the world. But, it was "WHILE I WAS IN THE AFFAIR" I was completely blinded by the fog , poisoned by the drug , that I was taking.
I was so relief when my husband found out, because, I could not stop it on my own. I needed help, I was too "hooked" on the OM, on the affair.

Now, I am completely free of that dependency, I am free to think and to analyze what a fool I was into believing that what I was doing was remotely good or pretty.

ALL OM-OWs are bad, no matter how you look at it. Anybody that comes into a marriage with the full knowledge that the person is still married, cannot be a GOOD,NOBLE,person.

Speaking for myself, I was in need of the attention, because of my self-esteem issues and other things. In no way I want to see an excuse for what I did wrong. Just because there are issues in someones life, is not an excuse for having an affair and doing this to your spouse.

I still cannot believe my husband is able to forgive what I did to Us. And I thank him with all my heart for giving me another opportunity to redeem myself!!!

MYRTA

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MakeYourOwnSunshine:
<strong>

And Bob's statement about his wife 'humping' with the OM, was NOT disrespetful to ME but to his own wife!

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Rachel, it was the ACT that was disrespectful, not the words. Respectful words should not be used to describe disrespectful, putrid behavior.
No one is required to pretend illicit sex is anything but putrid and abhorrent. You may choose to do that, but others are not.

The above post by Mr. Pure is exactly what I am talking about. Bob, honestly, how would your wife feel if she came here and read that you were writing to over 30,000 members about her that way??? Are you thumping her over the head with her past behavior? Are you doing that to her face, or are you "venting" it here? Is she CURRENTLY doing that behavior? Are you trying to live in the here and now, or is your wife forever defined by her past mistakes?

And just because she disrespected you, is that your license to disrespect her? Are you "an eye for an eye," or "in Christlike love?"

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> SA, your father has recovered by FACING THE TRUTH about his addiction, not by romanticizing poison. He faced the truth that it was POISON. Successful recovering alcoholics focus on RECOVERY, they don't fantasize about the fine points of drinking.

Because if drinking were all that wonderful, he wouldn't have quit, right?

I assure you when he goes to AA meetings, they don't sit around and regale each other about the wonders of drinking. They talk about RECOVERY.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My father went to one AA meeting. He didn't tell us what they talked about. We were too naive or stubborn maybe to go to Alanon. I was a teenager at the time. Unfortunately, my father succombed to his addiction again b/c the withdrawal was too much for him. And he died a year later.

I am going to tell you something that I really don't want to tell you, but I think maybe it is necessary.

When my husband found out about my affair (1 1/2 yrs ago)...he read an email...he forced sex on me.

Not nice sex but me face down and he did it to me in a different area than where it is suppose to be. (I don't want to go into details but I am sure you understand what I am saying)

It hurt terribly; I think he was PUNISHING me.
I weigh 137, he weighs 240!

My affair was not discussed ever again; only on that day of discovery, with a threat, if I ever met with OM again. (I haven't)

So my mind goes to pleasant thoughts of summer afternoons spent with OM and away from this memory that will NOT leave my mind.

So when I think of 'humping' it feels like that is what my H did to me; not what me and OM did.

I wrote earlier that he has never called me a 'bad name', he hasn't, but what he did still haunts me.

I think it was what was described in that thread that caused so much dissention here; about how our H's can kinda like 'snap' when they find out.

I have forgiven him; he evidently has forgiven me because we get along fine YET...there is still a YET...in my mind!

Rachel

Spider, I am just amazed at your attitude. What is putrid here is the ACT, not the WORDS. The words only accurately describe the ACT. Yet you condemn the WORDS. Why? Why aren't you instead comdemning the disrespectful ACT?

If folks find the description offensive, then their problem is with the TRUTH, not the WORDS.

It scares me that we live in a world where descriptive words are somehow WORSE than the ACT. It is worse to be truthful about an act than it is to DO THE ACT. How can that be? Is his Alice in Wonderland?

I am sorry, but there is absolutely nothing "compassionate" about using doublespeak to describe abhorrent behavior. There is nothing supportive in such behavior. It only encourages folks to be delusional. That is supportive?? Not in my book.

Thanks for the AA info, Melody. That completely makes sense. And perhaps explains why some people react to others the way they do on these boards.

I do have a question for you, though. You said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Respectful words should not be used to describe disrespectful, putrid behavior. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why is this so? Is this your belief? Perhaps it would be less inflamatory if you phrased it as such: "I believe . . . " or "I feel . . . "

Because I believe that all things can be said in a respectful way, if one tries hard enough. That is the wonderful thing about the english language - so many words to choose from!