BrownHair:

I have told my wife I love her in every possible way and manner. She still thinks I will leave her one of these days.

Regarding the OM:

1. OM cannot offer my wife anything other than the smooth talk and SF, which would get old very quickly if they had a relationship in the open. I don't worry about wife leaving me for the OM. I worry about my wife maintaining contact with OM with the idea of re-starting PA behind my back. Of course, that would be the end of the marriage, but foggy minds work in mysterious ways. At this moment I trust no ONE!


I have no plans to end the marriage. I am 100% committed to my wife and I don’t believe there is another woman out there for me.

As long as wife believes I am not sincere there will be a problem. By the way this is not new. When we got married my wife could not believe I actually wanted to marry her. When wife met OM her 1st words were that she was not enough in the marriage or that she was the lesser of the two components in the marriage. Obviously this provided the OM with a lot of ammunition to work on her.

So we are paralyzed with this one!

<small>[ November 08, 2004, 09:33 AM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

Dear Aussieswife,
sorry for threadjacking here a little, but I'll stick to your subject - how to help recover the M.

Stanley,
I said before that your W sounds a lot like the OW in my case. The uncertainties, the feeling of not being appreciated, of not being "enough".
I really think that needs to be adressed and I hope your W can work on that in her counseling sessions as it really is her problem, it was already there when you married her.
Please be patient and take care of yourself.

In a romantic affair the WW gives away everything to the OM including SF, incredible emotional intimacy, and even ultimate friendship. In fact many OMs become mentors and are put on a pedestal by the WWs. If BH says anything negative about OM this is received as a HUGE LOVE BUSTER. In the ultimate romantic affair the WW makes a complete connection with OM while at the same detaching from the husband.

I believe the WW must be honest about these things with the BH. It seems that some WWs are able to return to the BH emotionally whereas others probably never do and remain in love with OM for ever. It is very important to let the BH know where he stands so he can make the right decision about the marriage. Complete honesty is very important---- thou I suspect many WWs will lie and say the love the BH as they get dumped by the OM or find out the OM is a person of poor character.

I just wanted to echo AW in telling everyone how useful this advice is. Thanks, RIF90, I will buy a copy of that book.

This kind of leads me on to another question: H obviously has to deal with this in his own way. I am scared that any attempts on my part to help him deal with his pain and hurt will be interpreted as "telling him what to do", "thinking I know better". This might just fuel resentment on his part, with the result in the end that he won't listen to the advice. Ideally, someone other than me could suggest this kind of thing to him, but the problem is that he doesn't want to tell anyone else about my A.

So for example, if I buy the book, what is the best way to suggest that it could help him to read it ?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by smur:
<strong> This kind of leads me on to another question: H obviously has to deal with this in his own way. I am scared that any attempts on my part to help him deal with his pain and hurt will be interpreted as "telling him what to do", "thinking I know better". This might just fuel resentment on his part, with the result in the end that he won't listen to the advice. Ideally, someone other than me could suggest this kind of thing to him, but the problem is that he doesn't want to tell anyone else about my A.

So for example, if I buy the book, what is the best way to suggest that it could help him to read it ? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you have a trusted pastor or close friend that knows about the A that could talk with him? Again, you want to be very careful in who you tell, as it could further push your H away...

Why don't you buy the book and start reading it... leave it on the coffee table or night stand with a big book mark in it... Don't say a thing to your H... I bet that his curiosity will eventually get the better of him and he'll pick it up...

In doing this, you will show your H that you are working on yourself (by reading the book and learning ways to improve yourself) without trying to 'push' him in any way. I suspect that he is hurting and looking for any answers that might help him remove the pain that he's feeling... Remember, he will believe your actions much easier than your words right now.

Semper Fi,
RIF90

Thanks again,

No, we don't have any friends who know about my ONS, as H has previously asked me specifically not to tell anyone, and I didn't tell anyone prior to Dday. The only person who knows is my brother, since I called him on Dday when I was scared for H's safety. Now H avoids my brother, even though I know he sympathises a lot with H, having been in a similar situation, and would help him if he could.

I will try leaving the book around.
Thanks so much for your advice, you're very kind.

If any BHs are out there, maybe I could have another minute of your time...

I have tried to put some of these things listed here into practise, only to be told by H that saying 'ILY' is 'putting pressure' on him, and that it makes him want space from me. He doesn't want affection or SF from me right now.

So how to fill EN's when he doesn't seem to want me near him?

I feel like the problem is that he doesn't trust me and won't be open to me. I don't know what more to say or do to show him that I am trustworthy. If you have ideas, please let me know.

He has known all details since the week after Dday, 5 months ago. I didn't resist answering questions, in any case I confessed. I don't think he thinks I am in contact with OM. I haven't been in contact since March, and we are living in another country. I was well out of any fog by the time I confessed, so there was no withdrawal or romanticising OM on my part.

Any thoughts??

Hi Smur,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have tried to put some of these things listed here into practise, only to be told by H that saying 'ILY' is 'putting pressure' on him, and that it makes him want space from me. He doesn't want affection or SF from me right now. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How did your H react immediatly after you confessed your A? Has he refused SF for the past 5 months, or just recently?

It could be that your H's most important EN's right now aren't affection or SF... I suspect that if you try and focus more on admiration that you might see a better effect.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I feel like the problem is that he doesn't trust me and won't be open to me. I don't know what more to say or do to show him that I am trustworthy. If you have ideas, please let me know. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't mean this in a harsh way, but your H souldn't trust you... Have you looked at what your actions were just before and during the A? Spend some time and really search to find out what YOU were missing in your life that led you to stray... then develop actions that will keep you from repeating those same mistakes.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He has known all details since the week after Dday, 5 months ago. I didn't resist answering questions, in any case I confessed. I don't think he thinks I am in contact with OM. I haven't been in contact since March, and we are living in another country. I was well out of any fog by the time I confessed, so there was no withdrawal or romanticising OM on my part. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You state that you were well out of any fog when you confessed, and you confessed 5 months ago... and your last contact was March... so that would be 8 months total. Your H is most likely searching his memory to see what he could have done differently just prior to the A and during the A, and up until your confession. He's probably feeling like this time of his life (from just before the A, during the A, and up until the day that you confessed) has all been a lie. It's going to take consistent, trustworthy actions on your part over a long period of time to earn your H's trust back.

Are you and your H in MC? If not, then please go find a good pro-marriage MC and start going... if your H doesn't want to go with you, then you go by yourself. Oh, Have you gotten a copy of Torn Asunder yet?

Semper Fi,
RIF90

RIF,

I appreciate your time and thoughts on this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> How did your H react immediately after you confessed your A? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Immediately after, he was very angry, withdrawn, hurt. He didn't want to even look at me for several days, then he demanded to know every detail, and I told him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Has he refused SF for the past 5 months, or just recently? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, immediately after he wanted lots of SF, but it was fairly rough. Later he still wanted it, but he refused to kiss me or be affectionate in any way. Then, when he decided that he was going to sleep with other women himself, he became much nicer to me and was even affectionate. Just recently, after he realised he was not going to 'convince me' not be hurt/upset/angry by him sleeping with another woman, and he has given up the idea, his resentment is back and he has refused SF.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It could be that your H's most important EN's right now aren't affection or SF... I suspect that if you try and focus more on admiration that you might see a better effect.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, I will try this. I have been doing this too so far.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't mean this in a harsh way, but your H souldn't trust you... Have you looked at what your actions were just before and during the A? Spend some time and really search to find out what YOU were missing in your life that led you to stray... then develop actions that will keep you from repeating those same mistakes. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have been in IC for 5 months, since Dday, and I think I have some idea about this. I think both H and I avoided conflict over issues in our R for the last 2 years or so, with me often capitulating to whatever he wanted to do, and I built up resentments without even being aware of it. H has been through a few depressions and was fairly needy at times. I was also in a time of change in my life and my self-esteem wasn't great. I think I was giving too much without realising it was eroding my love for H. I was not aware enough of my own needs and so not asking for things.
As for developing better habits, I think just an awareness of my own insecurities and vulnerability helps, and avoiding people I find attractive when I'm in a vulnerable period. Before my ONS, I never even considered that I could do something like this, so I wasn't aware of the need for this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are you and your H in MC? If not, then please go find a good pro-marriage MC and start going... if your H doesn't want to go with you, then you go by yourself. Oh, Have you gotten a copy of Torn Asunder yet? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I ordered Torn Asunder from Amazon and its supposed to arrive in the next few days. H and I are moving back to our home country in about 6 weeks and I will try to start MC there. H has consistently said that he wouldn't go, but maybe being back home, things might seem different?

thanks again RIF and all the best to you!

I forgot to comment about this...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Your H is most likely searching his memory to see what he could have done differently just prior to the A and during the A, and up until your confession. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think this is true. We have had several long discussions since Dday. In the course of these he has never asked me about why my ONS happened in relation to anything he did, and doesn't seem to hear if I try to bring up the subject of reasons relating to our R issues (very gently - I am very aware of taking full responsibility for MY actions and never giving the impression that I blame him). Its my impression that he views my ONS as a willful and unwarranted act of cruelty on my part, done for the purpose of inflicting pain on him. I agree in hindsight that it was an enormously hurtful act on my part, but it certainly was not done with that INTENTION.

Its my impression that he sees the present state of our R as solely my fault, therefore he sees it as solely my responsibility to 'fix' it somehow, without his participation. He, in the meantime, is busy doing what he needs to, to avoid being depressed. This may be 'fair', but unfortunately, as I see it, its not possible to recover a R like this.

Bumping up for Rae03

Just wanted to add that this thread has been interesting and helpful to me. I'm a FWW, who had an A with another woman. DD was 6 months ago. While H and I have been in MC, and I've been in counseling myself (still am), it's been very hard to see anything past my depression. I think I'm JUST NOW coming to terms with how he's been feeling. It was enough to get to the end of every day for me. So, I really couldn't even begin to think to build my H's self-esteem up, or give him lots of love and sex, when I wanted to die.

Things are getting better, and we're getting along (always did). The sex is our only obstacle. He forgave me and understood the A much more easily because it was with a woman. While he admitted that he was hurt and demeaned by it all, it was much easier to accept because he didn't have to compare himself to another man. This is what he's told me. I guess I should be grateful.

Good luck to everyone on this thread. I know that repairing the marriage takes lots of time, but if you're willing, it could work.

CC

Smur,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I don't think this is true. We have had several long discussions since Dday. In the course of these he has never asked me about why my ONS happened in relation to anything he did, and doesn't seem to hear if I try to bring up the subject of reasons relating to our R issues (very gently - I am very aware of taking full responsibility for MY actions and never giving the impression that I blame him). Its my impression that he views my ONS as a willful and unwarranted act of cruelty on my part, done for the purpose of inflicting pain on him. I agree in hindsight that it was an enormously hurtful act on my part, but it certainly was not done with that INTENTION.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">hmmmm... I can so relate to this... after learning of my W's "first" A, I didn't want to do any MC... I didn't want to know WHY she had her A... I just wanted to get over it and move on with our lives. It sure sounds like your H is affraid to deal with WHY you had your A because it might mean that he will have to deal with some issues himself.

It's hard for us BSes to own up to our contributions in the condition of the M prior to the A... and eventually, we BSes do have to recognize what we were doing or not doing that led to creating a M where the other spouse felt the need or desire to stray... ***For any new BS that might read this... I'm NOT saying that you were responsible for your spouses A... the WS is 100% responsible for the A... but eventually, if you truly want to rebuild your M, then you must work through the issues that created the condition in your M that led up to the A***

Your H is truly blessed that you are willing to change and show him your commitment... be patient with him... be consistent with him... Hopefully, he will come around and be willing to work with you as you BOTH rebuild your M...

Semper Fi,
RIF90

Smur,
Although this thread has gone a bit cold, I hadn't seen some of the last responses.

I wanted to comment on something you said about your H's behavior. You said that he doesn't want to be around the one other person who knows, your brother.

This is very common. Go back and read the second post on this thread. It talks about feelings of humiliation and shame. I, too, do not enjoy being around the three other people who know: her mother, her best friend and my mother.

Whenever I'm around them, I feel withdrawn. Although they feelings are less severe than 6-12 months ago they are still present.

Back during the months following DDAy they were so severe that they bordered on irrational anxiety.

It is normal. As time goes on he may warm up to your brother.

Mac

cwmac, your original response to this post was very good. As was Uphills. I think I feel very much like you only further down the road. But I can so relate to not wanting to be around people that know. And in my case it's more ridiculous in that I can intuitively tell who knows when W thinks no one knows. And when I say intuitively I'm not claiming to be a psychic but you just know. One of my W's friends had said to me (in front of W) that if she were 10 yrs. younger she would sleep with OM. An obvious reference to W but W won't acknowlege that and couldn't for the life of her figure out why I wouldn't want to be in this woman's company. After all she doesn't know; right? The fog gets almost commical if it wasn't so sad.

I'm sorry to threadjack here but this is a cool post and makes some great points. BTW I'm a longtime member under the name walkingoneggs but re-registered as woe so I can post at work.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Stanley568:
<strong>
The thing to do for the FWW is to show lots of affection for the BH------------- and I really mean a lot of affection including SF, conversation, and emotional intimacy. In short---- all the things that were provided to the OM should now be provided to the BH in greater quantities. Otherwise resentment will come in and could end the marriage. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN

This would make my life six hundred times better right now!

cwmac,

Thanks for your comments. I suppose I sort of knew the reason for H's avoiding anyone who knows.
I just want so much for him to get better. I hate the fact that I have caused him this. In his position, I would talk about it with sympathetic friends and read everything about it and go to IC and ask for my S to meet my needs and just keep at it until the pain receded.

I guess I've accepted that he is doing things his own way. There is only so much I can do and beyond that, his recovery (or not) will follow its own path. Sort of a glum conclusion after I was so hopeful on reading some of these ideas here, that I might be really able to help him... We are reading Torn Asunder together and maybe he might one day post here.

I guess its not all completely altruistic, because I also want my R to recover for my own sake. I have a great fear of being in a future R with a huge issue between us thats never been properly dealt with, but instead kind of buried alive.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by smur:
<strong> cwmac,

In his position, I would talk about it with sympathetic friends and read everything about it and go to IC and ask for my S to meet my needs and just keep at it until the pain receded.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's what a lot of us are doing...it makes it a lot easier to know that someone's WW, even if it's not our own, understands what we are going through...thanks for this thread

dear Smur

how are you ?

Is the reading going well at all with torn asunder?

meant to post you last night but fell asleep, doing lots of that.
Frankly I really dont feel that well at all but I guess its the weather.

Anyway any light appearing at the end of the tunnel yet?
I really hope your H pays attention to Torn Asunder and can see the dynamics involved. From your description of his reactons it may help a lot, something he put his teeth into and work on.
Well here's hoping and praying.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by cwmac:
<strong> I don't mean to undermine the pain of female BSs but I firmly believe that male BSs feel more humiliation from their wives actions. Society has a special disdain for men whose wives cheat. It's even more punishing to those men who decide to stay in the marriage and not divorce. We're weak. We're cuckolds. We're losers. . </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Reading this, I was reminded of something the minister in my church told me. He said that in general a female BS feels like she "won" if her husband ends it with the OW and stays in the marriage. But for a male BS, it doesn't matter if the WW comes back, we feel like we lost the minute our wives had SF with another man. I have to say I agreed with him 100%.

I agree with cwmac, I think society views a BW and a BH husband differently. Right or wrong, society tends to see a male BH who stays as weak.
Michael