$h!+, FM, you need your HEAD examined! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Try being supportive of your W rather than putting her on the defensive like this all the time.

I realize that one of the MB methods is 2 get the FWS 2 confirm 2 the FBS' satisfaction that they're not in contact. But think about it. How's she going 2 do that 2 your COMPLETE satisfaction? What if she feels she's doing a good job at satisfying your concerns and STILL wants 2 have contact with OM? Think she might be able 2 pull that off? Of course she could.

I think the only way 2 get beyond a reasonable doubt is 2 ask yourself why you have doubts. If you suspect that your W is still in contact, hire a PI or snoop or something, don't hammer your W about her "method" or lack thereof (your perception anyway) for reassuring you. Remember that your doubts are yours. She didn't give them 2 you. You chose 2 have doubts. You can choose 2 obsess about them if you want, 2. But what good does that ever do?

I'd try just being married for now. Stop insisting on being right. See if your doubts subside with time. If they don't, then spy if you feel you need 2.

"just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean that people aren't out 2 get you" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I hope this helps a tad,
-ol' 2long <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

FM,

You don't need your head examined. Your convo indicates you set some boundaries in your effort to move forward. She has established her depressive actions are due to her past actions and she has said her current and future actions are not A related.

Now the ball is in your court. You look at her current and future actions. It will require patience to do this but the movement for you will be forward.

At a later time, even while she is in her current state, you can use her words have a simple and short convo w/her that you also want to believe her current and future actions. Share the understanding you will provide support to allow her to get over her painful past but you also need her help. Wait for her response and based on how she responds, then share what help you need and how. Don't make it too difficult. You need to have your priorities of your needs and dish it out a little at a time. ok?

Pray for that clear mind, calm heart and lots of patience. It is your time now. Use it wisely.

take care,
L.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong> $h!+, FM, you need your HEAD examined! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


"just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean that people aren't out 2 get you" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I hope this helps a tad,
-ol' 2long <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It does, especially the laugh
I want to move pass the suspicion and the tension I really do. I do not want this type of a R with my W we are supposed to make each other smile, laugh etc....that's the type of phone calls I want to have during the day...not interrogations and teeth pullings...GRRRR

let it go FM
for your own good
just let it gooooooooooooooooooooo

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Orchid:
<strong> FM,

You don't need your head examined. Your convo indicates you set some boundaries in your effort to move forward. She has established her depressive actions are due to her past actions and she has said her current and future actions are not A related. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OHH I get it so her distance, coldness and detached actions have nothing to do with her A they are just by products of that A. I must take her at her word...no other choice really.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Orchid:
<strong>
At a later time, even while she is in her current state, you can use her words have a simple and short convo w/her that you also want to believe her current and future actions. Share the understanding you will provide support to allow her to get over her painful past but you also need her help. Wait for her response and based on how she responds, then share what help you need and how. Don't make it too difficult. You need to have your priorities of your needs and dish it out a little at a time. ok?

Pray for that clear mind, calm heart and lots of patience. It is your time now. Use it wisely.

take care,
L. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have expressed so many things to her, and sometimes I talk so soft, and calmly that its like childs speak. She only barely responds, just looks at me and knods her head or drops it, raises it, sometimes I'll get lucky and she will blurt out a laugh...it's like chipping through ICE. Daggit ORchiD I'm a good man, foulable but good and I don't deserve all of this crappy stress. Please catch a plane to Maryland and hypnotise my W...or kill her alien transplant <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Its really not funny anymore. Last night we barely spoke, I'm avoiding her so as NOT to have a scene...my son doesnt need to witness us arguing, besides what is she going to tell me? I feel like everytime we make progress, which will be due to my patience and thoughfulness out of nowhere she tranforms into a selfish person complete with moodswings and coldness...

are you sure quitting isn't more healthy than this crap she's putting me through? I mean she contradicts herself so much, says she wants things to work out but says SHE CANT lift a finger to do so, says it's not me but sleeps in another room....I mean how much more of this can I take?

Vent Man!
Dunnaa dunna dunnna dunna dunnnna dunnnna dunna
dunna .....VENT MAN! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

FM:

"are you sure quitting isn't more healthy than this crap she's putting me through? I mean she contradicts herself so much, says she wants things to work out but says SHE CANT lift a finger to do so, says it's not me but sleeps in another room....I mean how much more of this can I take?"

You can take what you can take, no more, no less (meaning that in a "Job" kind of way).

Quitting is never healthy. Surrender is, though, but it's pretty much misunders2d. As for what she's putting you through: What IS she REALLY putting YOU through? What is she putting HERSELF through, is probably a more telling 2uestion. Hell, probably. Only YOU are taking it personally as something she's doing 2 YOU.

All of it: Her contradicting herslef, her "not lifting a finger", saying it's not you, sleeping in the other room, it all points more 2 what she's doing 2 HERSELF now for what she's done in the past than it points 2 anything she's doing 2 you. I doubt very much that any of the things she appears 2 be doing TO you is conscious on her part.

-ol' 2long

FM,

Your taker is fighting for his chance t/b heard. This is a hard time for most BS.

Venting is ok. Healthy outlet. Do it here as needed.

Look, show your W someone she will want to have in her life. She will feel guilty but that's her issue, not yours.

Love your children together. She chooses to sleep in another room, that is her choice. It does affect some of your ENs, you can give her that piece of info in your order of priority. Remember that list.

Keep your taker in tact. It will want to run amuck and that w/b bad. Again, this is where that patience stuff becomes your life-saver.

The ball is more in your court than hers. The time is here and will be more so that you will get to call the shots for you and your family. She may resist but you w/b at a stronger point to put your foot down because your boundaries w/b set.

Where are you at setting your boundaries?

BTW, you will probably start hating some of the stuff you read here. I know I did. BR, WAT, RH, Zorweb, Cali and others used to try to pound this kind of sense into me over and over again..... with me it took a long time. Ya know.... thick skull and all. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hang in there buddie.

take care,
L.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong> FM:

"are you sure quitting isn't more healthy than this crap she's putting me through? I mean she contradicts herself so much, says she wants things to work out but says SHE CANT lift a finger to do so, says it's not me but sleeps in another room....I mean how much more of this can I take?"

You can take what you can take, no more, no less (meaning that in a "Job" kind of way).

Quitting is never healthy. Surrender is, though, but it's pretty much misunders2d. As for what she's putting you through: What IS she REALLY putting YOU through? What is she putting HERSELF through, is probably a more telling 2uestion. Hell, probably. Only YOU are taking it personally as something she's doing 2 YOU.

All of it: Her contradicting herslef, her "not lifting a finger", saying it's not you, sleeping in the other room, it all points more 2 what she's doing 2 HERSELF now for what she's done in the past than it points 2 anything she's doing 2 you. I doubt very much that any of the things she appears 2 be doing TO you is conscious on her part.

-ol' 2long </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right!!
But lets say she's being honest and she has broken off contact with OM and OM/Family...
How can we ever recover if she continues to beat herself up about all of this? If she stays in this zone of self inflicted pain and depriving herself of happiness what will be left? 2LONG now you have hit it on the nose my friend...good swing!! My W has said to me on different occasions that she doesn't feel worthy of good treatment, kindness, touch, love or anything because of how she's acted, but WHAT ABOUT OUR MARRIAGE..and how long is it even safe for her to continue this way? I know no one can really answer that question, but see this is why I've tried to hang in there with our M. My W made a big mistake but her punishment is so far reaching it's destroying our chances of reconciliation and I don't think it's all a conscious choice on her part. I think some of her actions, thoughts are due to a depressive state that is quite scary and mentally paralyzing...oh the simple days, when you argued about money, toothpaste flattening techniques and toliet seat positioning <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

FM Wife if you're lurking....

I love you but get better yesterday already <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Orchid:
<strong>
Where are you at setting your boundaries?

L. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Boundaries?
I'm at a lost Orchid any suggestions where to start this boundary setting?

I don't want to print up a series of rules and affix them to the fridge but I do need some parameters.

Boundaries: A list of items your inner soul will or will not tolerate.

NOTE: This list may start out long but will settle to a shorter and real one in time.

For me that list eventually settled to 2 things:

1. I needed to be safe and be made to feel safe for us (family).

2. OW needed t/b out of MY life and that of my family. Even if that meant losing the WS.

See in my heart, I was not losing my H. If the Ws stayed as a WS, he was the one who stole my H's soul. My anger was then focused on the WS not the OP. OP was stupid and I don't deal or put my life in the hands of a stupid stranger. I was finally able to let go. I learned to play back the WS words to the WS.....to my advantage. Told the WS that he was finally right, it wasn't about the OW because she just isn't good enough to be worth wasting my time, so it was his job to make sure she was not in my life anymore.

Each person's character will have different boundaries. Those were mine.

Hope this helps.
L.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Orchid:
<strong> Boundaries: A list of items your inner soul will or will not tolerate.

NOTE: This list may start out long but will settle to a shorter and real one in time.

For me that list eventually settled to 2 things:

1. I needed to be safe and be made to feel safe for us (family).

2. OW needed t/b out of MY life and that of my family. Even if that meant losing the WS.

See in my heart, I was not losing my H. If the Ws stayed as a WS, he was the one who stole my H's soul. My anger was then focused on the WS not the OP. OP was stupid and I don't deal or put my life in the hands of a stupid stranger. I was finally able to let go. I learned to play back the WS words to the WS.....to my advantage. Told the WS that he was finally right, it wasn't about the OW because she just isn't good enough to be worth wasting my time, so it was his job to make sure she was not in my life anymore.

Each person's character will have different boundaries. Those were mine.

Hope this helps.
L. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand the only problems if My Boundaries require more than my W being in the same home as the rest of our family, she will insist it's too much!!

I feel slayed. We were doing so well Orchid, we made plans and I do mean WE, just a couple weeks ago. We wanted to start filling our time doing fun and interesting things together and then WHAM!!

1. We always wanted to learn another language so she chose one..ITALIAN
we could travel to Italy one day, we could eat in authentic Italian resturants and use our new dialect, we could discover a new culture

2. We needed to be more physically active, both cold stand to lose maybe 10-20 pounds so I chose a sport we could do together: Tennis...indoor or outdoor, a year round inexpensive sport thats easily accessible

3. My W wanted us to start our own private book club, where we'd read and discuss interesting books, Oprah look out!!

These things could never get going because shortly after the excitment of planning came another wave of my w's standoffishness, distance, sarcasm, and all out indifference to anything concerning us or specifically, ME. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

So I guess a few boundaries would be :

1. My wife must protect our family and marriage from OM/ and OM/Family by ending all contact forever and telling me if even inconsequential contact occurs...no excuses no exceptions...

2. My spouse and I must spend leisure time together on a regular basis.

3. Communication is paramount. Never go to sleep with tension in our home, settle are disputes with love and a sense of kindness.

4. Place each others EN's first on our individual priority list.

5. Make no decision unilateraly that effects our M, our family or either spouse, do all things working towards a spirit of whole hearted agreement and support from the other spouse. (basically POJA but she doesnt know the term so I spelled it out)

How's that so far?

What happens if I set those boundaries and she says..."I can't do that" I can hear her saying it now. I can hear her actually voice, she sounds out of breath like she just ran up the side of a 1500 ft mountain:

" I just can't be any good to you now"...
blah blah blah...

Then what do I do..if I say okay..that just gives her more incentive to not come out of this state of paralysis. Orchid thanks for offering your advice, I hope I'm not being a pest <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

FM:

"How can we ever recover if she continues to beat herself up about all of this?"

Ever hear the joke about the guy repeatedly hitting his foot with a hammer and screaming from the pain? Bystander asks him "Why do you keep doing that?" and he replies "Because it feels so good when I stop!"

Somebody has 2 stop. If she can't stop beating herself up, could it have anything 2 do with you obsessing about how you can ever recover if she doesn't stop?

Yeah, you probably can't recover if she doesn't stop beating herself up.

Yeah, she probably can't stop beating herself up if you [inadvertently, perhaps] remind her of the damage she did 2 your M.

Who's capable of making the first positive move here?

-ol' 2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong> FM:

"How can we ever recover if she continues to beat herself up about all of this?"

Ever hear the joke about the guy repeatedly hitting his foot with a hammer and screaming from the pain? Bystander asks him "Why do you keep doing that?" and he replies "Because it feels so good when I stop!"

Somebody has 2 stop. If she can't stop beating herself up, could it have anything 2 do with you obsessing about how you can ever recover if she doesn't stop?

Yeah, you probably can't recover if she doesn't stop beating herself up.

Yeah, she probably can't stop beating herself up if you [inadvertently, perhaps] remind her of the damage she did 2 your M.

Who's capable of making the first positive move here?

-ol' 2long </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OUCH!!!

Good one 2Long...very good...

that's it..send 2LONG my Dessert!!!

Great Reminder Friend..you guys are kewl amd smart..I'm glad you on the side of my marriage..
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
lol

Hey cool! What's for dessert?

I'm partial 2 gooseberry pie, myself!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-ol' 2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong> Hey cool! What's for dessert?

I'm partial 2 gooseberry pie, myself!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-ol' 2long </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">actually no dessert tonight...it's taco night...

but

unfortunately I wish it was me bringing things up which causes her to slip into these lengthy guilt trips, but she does that all by herself. My W and I have talked about them, she totally loses focus on how good we are together, how good life is, how great the possibilities are..I sent her a few voice messages while things were up last week, so she can play them when things are not so up. I don't have to make any mistakes, any LB's and she will still out of the blue become sullen and gult ridden, recoiling to be on her own amongst us...

its a painful thing to see, not to mention she starts snapping at me for no reason...

It's hard being the punching bag when you are the one who's been slighted the most..

*sigh

Oh now this is hilarious..

I emailed my wife today a cease fire...
I told her I was so very tired of the distance, the avoidance, the separation within our home..I told her I felt it was time she came back to our room and that I missed her...

She came in...time passed....the dinner I made for her sat on the stove..I asked was she going to eat..she said yes...I asked did she get my emails..one was a joke the other was the one about coming back to our room....she said yes she had received them...She didnt respond....Oh guess what now she is sooo tirrreeedd...she cant stay awake..she's in her room now, no response to my email not even telling me she doesn't think its a good idea or any form of explanation..NOTHING.
I wonder how many of my MB friends really think this is okay I mean my W is a grown up shouldnt she at least respond to her husbands request, even if she felt she couldn't comply, isnt it at least decent of her to say so...

I think sometimes BS's take a little more garbage than is healthy. I will not go into the extra room and wake her from her pretend or real sleep..since she is so EXHAUSTED all of a sudden since I asked her to come back to our bedroom....no I'll just let her sleep..I'll go right on and continue to be alone while I'm with someone....

This is ridiculous..

Orchid you were right, I am beginning to not like the advice I'm getting, I am not mother Theresa I'm a guy from Maryland and I'm not used to such intense sacrifice in the face of such avoidance...

*sigh..blah *sigh some more... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

FM:

I think you have to go with your gut. If you are not connecting with her, it is because she is still connected with her lover. I think it is fair and reasonable to assume her affair is continuing. Depression, on the other hand, is a sign of withdrawal. It could last for a month or two or even more.

You might consider buying a software for your computer that allows you to see what is being typed and sent or received from anyone using it. You can buy a recorder at radio shack that is voice activated for the home and wire to your outside box without her knowing it.

Have you exposed her to bosses, etc. to dismantle her from talking to him at work?

Don't believe her words but her actions at this stage of the affair and discovery, etc.

TooSoon

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by TooSoonToBeComfortable:
<strong> FM:

I think you have to go with your gut. If you are not connecting with her, it is because she is still connected with her lover. I think it is fair and reasonable to assume her affair is continuing. Depression, on the other hand, is a sign of withdrawal. It could last for a month or two or even more.

TooSoon </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes it is, and if not she still has not committed to her M, her family or her H. She is gone now because she wouuld not call him and break it off, she wouldn't end it with him, now I know she never did end it with him...she just devised a way to keep a foot in each door, my door, and his door and I cannot allow that any longer. I just ordered SAA and I'm reading TD Jakes HE-EMOTIONS (a terrific book!), I am looking for the strenght to decide what I WANT not how I might react to HER foggy decisions but WHAT MY DECISIONS WILL BE.

It has all been a farce. A farce on my part because I talked myself into believing nonsense because the truth was unbearable, and a farce on my W's part because she lied, kept contact again and totally refuses to choose between her family, her M, her H and OM. I CAN'T is not an acceptable answer.

I am now back in PLAN B.

Any comments, suggestions, support, hugs, laughs or warnings?

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

My W just called said she had the cops coming with her so she could pick up some clothers and her resume....

as if she needs the cops??

What a jerk...all I wanted her to do was choose and she's done that...

Now she's free to screw up her life as much as possible without me in it.

The cops were stunned, one talked to me for a while asking why did she need them to accompany her? I dont seem violent. I replied I'm not violent I'm just beyond what any normal husband should go through. I told him that we were seperated for over 2 years during that time my wife had a R with this OM, and she was supposed to end that R when we got back together. My W moved in here 2 years ago and she never ended her R with this OM, she never even told him she was living with me. The officer said that is a situation just waiting to explode, and that regardless to her reasons that is unacceptable in a M with kids or otherwise. I said I asked her to call it off with OM and she told me she couldn't, so she left.

I asked my W infront of the officers if she was willing to call up her boyfriend and end it right now? She cut her eyes at me and said I don't have a boyfriend and went to grab her stuff. I didn't say anything else I just walked into my sons bedroom and watched tv with him while she gathered her things. The officer came to get me once my W had left with one of the officers. He shook my hand and told me he could tell this is tearing me up inside and to take care of myself. I thanked him, loscked the door and went in my sons room and hugged him. The drama must end. I must end it. No blessings will be found for people who hurt others so deeply and still justify it or deny it to soothe their own guilt.

Pray for me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Any comments, suggestions, support, hugs, laughs or warnings?
Pray for me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can't not sit here and wallow in my own self-pity and continue to ignore the pain I've caused by not posting--and see it in words from MB'ers like you.

{{{FM}}}

We will pray for you, FM.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LINY:
<strong>
{{{FM}}}

We will pray for you, FM. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks friend, its the weekend and you know how slow it gets on weekends. Thanks for listening and the validation.


I've done all I can do right?
I must trust that GOD will take it from here right?
I pray I've done the right things, in my heart I know I cannot control any decisions my W makes, only my own decisions or within my control.

Time to get some revenge, which in actuality is live a better life. Just think my S is in his room not knowing where his big sister or where his mommy is and she has the nerve to cut eyes at me because I won't allow her to have me and her friend?????

She cuts her eyes at me because I have self-respect and I tell her she must choose?
That makes me a villian because I will not stand to be humiliated any longer? How am I the villian, I tell you to call OM and end it and I'll support you in anyway necessary for as long as it


takes to see us thru...you say you cannot and I say well then I cannot live like this with you any longer. How am I the bad guy?????? Does she actually think its okay she wont end contact with OM because according to her they arent being intimate right now?? Does she somewhere in her mind actually think their R is okay eventhough she used to sleep with him and now because its not sexual that it's okay and I'm wrong to ask her to end it? Does she really believe this garbage or does she somewhere underneath EXPECT me to say STOP she must know me by now, I hope that somewhere underneath the fog she NEVER expected me to put up with this INDEFINETLY. I am a strong man, a flawed but well-meaning proud man and I will not have my W have a R with passed boyfriends while she's withing our M, I cannot, I will not and that doesn't make me someone who deserves EYES to be cut at, that makes me who I am. FM and I do not apologize for my expectations of my W and of myself.

<small>[ November 13, 2004, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: FamilyMatters ]</small>