LM:

"So just so I understand you, the BS in this situation should sit Idly by untill the WS makes a "decision". Well, I can't say that that thinking would be any suprise on this board."

Boy, if any statement I've ever seen here ever missed the point compltely, this one would be IT!

Read the summary of the show on Dr. Phil's website, and you will see that he was getting right at that point. Why is the "choice" Ed's? Mom has her own choice 2 make. We all do.

I get the impression that you view these "methods" as cut and dry either/or kinds of things. They're NOT, although this particular point does seem like it SHOULD be an easy one 2 recognize and act on. But it requires strength on Mom's part - a willingness 2 accept all the possible outcomes of taking a stand. Even2ally, everyone needs 2 be able 2 do that, which is the reason for the typical timeframes recommended for plan A and B.

I do believe, though, that Mom got 2 the point where she needed 2 recognize all the potential fallout of making HER choices and making a stand a long time ago. But since she didn't do it then, there's still now.

-ol' 2long

*Message misunderstood.* No harm intended LM.

<small>[ November 12, 2004, 04:53 PM: Message edited by: LBelle ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong> LM:

"So just so I understand you, the BS in this situation should sit Idly by untill the WS makes a "decision". Well, I can't say that that thinking would be any suprise on this board."

Boy, if any statement I've ever seen here ever missed the point compltely, this one would be IT!

Read the summary of the show on Dr. Phil's website, and you will see that he was getting right at that point. Why is the "choice" Ed's? Mom has her own choice 2 make. We all do.

I get the impression that you view these "methods" as cut and dry either/or kinds of things. They're NOT, although this particular point does seem like it SHOULD be an easy one 2 recognize and act on. But it requires strength on Mom's part - a willingness 2 accept all the possible outcomes of taking a stand. Even2ally, everyone needs 2 be able 2 do that, which is the reason for the typical timeframes recommended for plan A and B.

I do believe, though, that Mom got 2 the point where she needed 2 recognize all the potential fallout of making HER choices and making a stand a long time ago. But since she didn't do it then, there's still now.

-ol' 2long </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LOL, in all honesty 2long I do get the point. The fact is Mom has WILLINGLY admitted that she can't make a decision on this RIGHT NOW, even going so far as saying that she "doesn't want to be the cause of the end of her marriage". She has left it up to Dad23b, so by doing that, she has to accept the consequences of his waffling. Now, I don't know how you see it, but that is how I see it. I was watching the show and when Dr Phil was kind of questioning her on why she was doing this ----she tried to answer him, but he cut her off to go to a break. My impression was that she was going to say that "she is doing this because she has history with him and has 3 children" with him. I don't think Phil let her get that out. I could be wrong, just my hunch. This is neither here nor there. Mom's actions clealry spell out that she has a "ton of reserve" for this marriage, so in that light, she willl still be able to "hold out" while D23b gets his $hit together. Whatever, she is a grown woman and has to live with the consequences of her actions. I look at it kind of harshly I admit. She chose to stay married to Dad and let him come back to the house 4 times, so one can only assume that she sees all of this pain as "worth" saving her marriage. She has chosen this course for her life and children. I ofcourse feel sad for all of this, it is infact a truly tragic situation for all involved, but she knowingly chose this. When you look at it like that, I can easily accept her actions and they don't seem so nuts to me (not that it matters one iota what I think about this). I think in the end she will get what she asked for here. Her husband will stay with the family....I would bet money on that one. I have only good hopes for them.

lemonman...

you are leaving out key factors of plan A that great building blocks...

First off with any crisis....we are always faced to choose our own reaction....

through hundreds of communication styles adults are pretty much aware of what works and what does not work...

plan a reminds you to try to stick to the basics...

1. don't resort to name calling...it breaks down any effective communcation...and just goes down a path of hurtfullness...

2. don't attempt to powerstruggle with someone who is saying things MOSTLY to rationalize their own hurtful choices....

3. don't hand the the WS any loaded weapons to be used against yourself....
that if you beg and plead for a WS not to go here or there...they will just turn around...and say...
"see I'm right you are always controlling"...

4. ulitmatums rarely work against another person and should only be made with oneself...

I believe that I have felt more self degraded in my interactions with my husband when i have resorted to name calling...hurtful attacks...than when I have spoke my pain or anger....without attacking and with a calm rational manner...

They will tolerate MULTIPLE lies, deceit, and betryals for their waywrads spouses conituing to stay in the marriage.

you can't stop someone from lying...the liar will either come to value truth or not...can't control that no matter what...but in plan a...if you pretty much expect everything they say to be a lie...then you can protect yourself from being hurt...and stick around a short while to see if the WS gets it as well

ALSO

NO BS I garuntee you wants to stay in the present marriage they have pre-affair and during discovery....
not one...they all desire a better marriage with better behavior from each partner...

no one at marriage builders encourages anyone to accept what they had...

I think I get called out a lot on here becasue I do question a lot of the behaviors and principles on this site.

should ALL marriages be saved ? NOPE

Do all people with infidelity come here...NOPE...high majority never do...don't want to...or divorce and then regret it...
we can only deal with those that are 'HERE"

Does MB garuntee anything ? NOPE

Is anyone here posting anything BUT their own opinions? NOPE and all of it should be treated as thus...

What we do know is that marriage builders was forged by a counselor who counseled number after number of people with infidelity in their marriage...and found the majority did NOT want to divorce...but were greatly unhappy in their present marriage...with now the added horror of infidelity......so this 'place"....

Is it perfect? NOPE
but it's better than floundering and wallowing...

this place if nothing else is an anchor...
Is it for everyone? NOT at all...

I think plan A is very empowering when understood and executed correctly...definitely not for the weak at heart...
but very worth it....no matter the end result...
recovery or divorce...

ARK

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LBelle:
<strong> MT3B,
You go and give him H@#*! He doesn't deserve you and he has some nerve to go on TV and say he can't decide. What do his patients think????

Good luck! We are all rooting for you. Be strong. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Uh...Lbelle, this is not exactly Marriage building advice. You are not showing enough compassion and concern for D23b and Mom. This is after all the man that she is "trying" to rebuild this marriage with. I just want to caution you here. Dad23b needs alot of compassion as he undoubtedly had a very very tough day yesterday. Mom needs to be told about the great many things regarding Dad, not things like "he doesn't deserve" you. These kinds of posts will NOT facilitate marriage building. Just my .02. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Lemonman,

I am a huge fan of the MB concepts, and of Plan A and Plan B to end an affair.

I am a very strong person however I am not strong enough to be able to Plan A in the face of lies and deception. However because I was familiar with the MB principles, such as meeting EN's, no LB'ing I had been on my best behavior for three months when I found out there was a rat in the haypile. So I went directly into Plan B, gave him a goodbye, no contact letter and refused any of his calls for 5 weeks. By the sixth week he was on A/D's and barely able to function.

Now we are dating and growing a great relationship.

Now I know with all certainty that if I had not been filling his needs & being a very good partner before I found out about the affair
Plan B probably would have been the end of us as his memories of me would have been less than his feelings of the OW at that point.

So Plan A has a very important need as the first part of the Plan A/Plan B strategy to end an affair if you had indeed contributed to the affair situation by neglecting your spouse or lovebusting all over the place and pushing them away.

Motto of the story, ALWAYS be the best you can be in your relationship and then you never have to go through the Plan A part - just straight to Plan B. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ark^^:
<strong> lemonman...

you are leaving out key factors of plan A that great building blocks...

First off with any crisis....we are always faced to choose our own reaction....

through hundreds of communication styles adults are pretty much aware of what works and what does not work...

plan a reminds you to try to stick to the basics...

1. don't resort to name calling...it breaks down any effective communcation...and just goes down a path of hurtfullness...

2. don't attempt to powerstruggle with someone who is saying things MOSTLY to rationalize their own hurtful choices....

3. don't hand the the WS any loaded weapons to be used against yourself....
that if you beg and plead for a WS not to go here or there...they will just turn around...and say...
"see I'm right you are always controlling"...

4. ulitmatums rarely work against another person and should only be made with oneself...

I believe that I have felt more self degraded in my interactions with my husband when i have resorted to name calling...hurtful attacks...than when I have spoke my pain or anger....without attacking and with a calm rational manner...

They will tolerate MULTIPLE lies, deceit, and betryals for their waywrads spouses conituing to stay in the marriage.

you can't stop someone from lying...the liar will either come to value truth or not...can't control that no matter what...but in plan a...if you pretty much expect everything they say to be a lie...then you can protect yourself from being hurt...and stick around a short while to see if the WS gets it as well

ALSO

NO BS I garuntee you wants to stay in the present marriage they have pre-affair and during discovery....
not one...they all desire a better marriage with better behavior from each partner...

no one at marriage builders encourages anyone to accept what they had...

I think I get called out a lot on here becasue I do question a lot of the behaviors and principles on this site.

should ALL marriages be saved ? NOPE

Do all people with infidelity come here...NOPE...high majority never do...don't want to...or divorce and then regret it...
we can only deal with those that are 'HERE"

Does MB garuntee anything ? NOPE

Is anyone here posting anything BUT their own opinions? NOPE and all of it should be treated as thus...

What we do know is that marriage builders was forged by a counselor who counseled number after number of people with infidelity in their marriage...and found the majority did NOT want to divorce...but were greatly unhappy in their present marriage...with now the added horror of infidelity......so this 'place"....

Is it perfect? NOPE
but it's better than floundering and wallowing...

this place if nothing else is an anchor...
Is it for everyone? NOT at all...

I think plan A is very empowering when understood and executed correctly...definitely not for the weak at heart...
but very worth it....no matter the end result...
recovery or divorce...

ARK </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for the post. The things you say make some sense, but there are still many points I can't agree with or understand. That is ok, thank you for taking the time to teach me.

LM

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by weaver:
<strong> Lemonman,

I am a huge fan of the MB concepts, and of Plan A and Plan B to end an affair.

I am a very strong person however I am not strong enough to be able to Plan A in the face of lies and deception. However because I was familiar with the MB principles, such as meeting EN's, no LB'ing I had been on my best behavior for three months when I found out there was a rat in the haypile. So I went directly into Plan B, gave him a goodbye, no contact letter and refused any of his calls for 5 weeks. By the sixth week he was on A/D's and barely able to function.

Now we are dating and growing a great relationship.

Now I know with all certainty that if I had not been filling his needs & being a very good partner before I found out about the affair
Plan B probably would have been the end of us as his memories of me would have been less than his feelings of the OW at that point.

So Plan A has a very important need as the first part of the Plan A/Plan B strategy to end an affair if you had indeed contributed to the affair situation by neglecting your spouse or lovebusting all over the place and pushing them away.

Motto of the story, ALWAYS be the best you can be in your relationship and then you never have to go through the Plan A part - just straight to Plan B. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Once again, a great post. Your points are valid. Thank you for taking the time to post to me regarding this situation. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

meanwhile, back at the ranch....Ed wants to race his car...shallow Hal.

Cannot be any worse than choosing to attend the Cher concert after receiving the call that the Father might not live through the night. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

committed

Just some thoughts---I did Plan A, at first not too well, and then later much better. I think this served me and our M well. My H had been like D23-he thought the M was over. He had been "miserable" OOPs forgot to tell me about that and hid it well, when OW came along telling him how great he was, he was ripe for the picking. TYPICAL--read Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass and SAA. All spelled out.

Plan A served me in that I changed behaviors that were unhealthy--for me, any R that I am in and for my partner. I went through a huge period of self growth. I really wasn't doing any thing terrible, but I think we can all grow as human beings. I learned a lot about myself and what I am capable of, and so did my H. I did not tolerate contact, but when I discovered it, set boundaries. I did two Plan Bs--the first didn't work b/c we didn't have a plan for my coming back home. BUt I was growing and changing and liking myself better all the time. Forgiving myself for not being the perfect wife. Working on forgiving my H for his blindness and weakness as well. Guess what? OW wasn't doing any of that. She was still doing what was best to hang on to him. WH started seeing reality, little by little. He was addicted to her and the feelings the A gave her. That hurt, a lot. I always told him I loved him and wanted him, but that I did NOT want OW in my life.

M23B is and has been doing much the same as I had been. She is growing and knowing herself more every day. She is learning what she will live with and what she won't. She is strong, and sometimes, that strength works against us because it makes things take longer--perhaps.

But the way I choose to look at it is this: it took me as long as it took me. I HAD to know that I did everything in my power to save my M. I am a strong and stubborn person. It took me a long time to learn some valuable lessons: I only control myself, my love for God comes first--no man's love shall be valued above that, I am in charge of my happiness, not being married doesn't mean I am a failure. These are all things I HAD to learn because I am the person that I am.

I am not happy my H had the A. But I learned and grew so very much. Only honestly, because I was forced to do so. And I am a MUCH better person for it and I know that I am a much better parent and partner because of it. If my H rejects that, so be it. I no longer depend on that for self approval.

I think I am typical of many women and I think Mom is too. She is going through her own journey. When she is ready she will decide what she wants to do. It takes a long time to shake off the dream and live in reality--no one is perfect, but we all should be trying to do better. Mom will eventually see, if she hasn't already that she has NO control over Dad and she will know when she doesn't see enough change in him to hope for better. I think this is true in every case, especially those with cake eating spouses. When the BS makes their decision to stop tolerating the WS shenanigans, and REALLY means it and sticks to it, the process can really begin.

I am enjoying reading all of these posts, I really am...It really puts a whole new light and percpective on my already traumatic life! REALLY! I just wish I had the time to read them all! I am again going to print them out and read them while I sit with my dad...but then again, I did that yesterday and I still haven't read all the pages <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> And daddy is REALLY alert today...not sure that is a good sign or not. He wants to know everything we are saying! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

One thing Iwant to comment on before I go back down with daddy!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My impression was that she was going to say that "she is doing this because she has history with him and has 3 children" with him. I don't think Phil let her get that out. I could be wrong, just my hunch. Lemonman </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actaully, what I SAID, but they cut it out, was that the reason I am keeping him around RIGHT NOW is because my daddy is so ill, with cancer, and I need Ed around to take care of the kids! But they cut that out of the show! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Anne,

That was a great post! It has so much truth in it I think for all of us who have lived through infidelity and become much better people, and with much better marriages (or single lives). Just better lives all the way around. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />


Mom2,

Don't know if you will get to read this <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> , but my thoughts are with you and your family regarding you daddy. It's hard thing to go through seeing someone you love so sick. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Thanks Weaver! I guess at this point I can see that we all need to take this journey on our own time. BUT having others' opinions, especially those who have been where we are, can be very, very valuable to us. I kept all the replies to my posts and kept reading and re-reading. Sometimes I could only accept and act on things long after I had been given the information. I think that is where Mom is now.

committed:

"'meanwhile, back at the ranch....Ed wants to race his car...shallow Hal.'

Cannot be any worse than choosing to attend the Cher concert after receiving the call that the Father might not live through the night."

Indeed, but he is still with us after all.

...the night my mom passed away, my dad and sisters and I had been there all day with her. My dad went home before dinner, and we agonized over whether 2 go out 2 dinner or not. In the end, we went. A nice mexican restaurant down in Oceanside. My mom passed away not long after we got back.

I guess my point is that the whole experience was so surreal, there was no clue she would have gone the week before that or the week after, and it didn't make sense 2 suspend our lives and just wait around.

Now, maybe going 2 a concert is a bit indulgent in such a si2ation. I don't know. In our case, we could have just gone out 2 MacDonald's or something else fast.

Boy... OT! Sorry.

-ol' 2long

Hey Anne...ditto. That was nearly exactly my situation. I have had to REALLY change my attitude and actions with my H.

Hey LM, what exactly are the problems you have with the plans? There are parts to plan A that I knew instinctively to do...I knew I had to apologize for the years of disrespect and neglect. I knew I had to humble myself. I was such an angry woman for so long, and I was driving him away. Was Plan A being a doormat for me? In a way, yes, but I had to learn to be more humble rather than the stonewall I was. I had to learn to be more giving. And now H and I have gotten to the point where we are both giving.

LM, what is going on with your personal situation? Is it COMPLETELY hopeless to reconcile with your WW (STBxW? or xW), or are you trying to find a plan to fit, but haven't found Plan A to be a match for you? Just wondering. No one would begrudge you your place in your M. You have great insight, and your questions are VERY thought provoking.

Anne said:
"She is strong, and sometimes, that strength works against us because it makes things take longer--perhaps."

I agree. Another down side to my strength is that my FWH knew that about me and instead of using it for mutual benefit, he took advantage of it and me. And, not knowing any better, I let him because I thought that was how to apply the concepts of Plan A. I had too many misconceptions for too long of what Plan A really is, what it's for, and how to do it well. Those misconceptions cost me more personally and maritally than anything else did.

2long,

I can remember the call that I got about my father. We happened to be in the states at the time, and only 10 minutes from the hospital when we got that call. It was the longest 10 minute drive of my life. My Dad died 3 days later and I was there when he slipped away...holding his hand. I can remember it like it was yesterday and it was over 14 years ago.

It is like I felt his spirit leave his body and I was the one that he shared that with. I often wondered if the day that I slipped into the world he knew that "I" would be the person with him when he slipped away.

Still, I am glad to have been the one.

committed

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by committedandlovingit:
<strong> meanwhile, back at the ranch....Ed wants to race his car...shallow Hal.

Cannot be any worse than choosing to attend the Cher concert after receiving the call that the Father might not live through the night. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

committed </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am so sorry, I missed this post, committed...but I would really appreciate you not making such comments as these to ME! And yes, this is directed to ME! This was a decision that dad and I made TOGETHER! WE live 3 hours away from SAT and we were on our way to the concert when we got the call. Incidentally, and maybe you haven't watched a family member die of cancer, but it is a day to day thing and he could live days longer or even weeks. I'm sorry, but what gives you the right to judge me for not coming down that night. As it turns out the nurse and everyone else was wrong about that night...As my husband stated based on the facts he ws given, he would probably live thru the night. I had planned on levaing at midnight to make the 3 hour drive, but everyone told me not to. YEs, we decided to go to that concert. I knew my dad had cancer when I bought the tickets. Should i have not bought the tickets in the first place...KNOWING that daddy could possibly die that night. Dont post to me anymore if you are going to give me guilt at a time when I dont need it. PERIOD!

Between you, me and the fencepost Mom, we ALL know (Dad included) that your had your daddy known the nurse had called you with that news, and you'd missed the concert rushing to SAT, he'd have been pretty ticked off.

Love to you!

Thank you kimmy! YOu are sooo oright....My dad would have been PISSED if he thought I missed that concert. He wanted to go with us! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Love you girl!