</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, and about M23B's lunch date and emails? Well, it seemed to me at that time, she pretty much figured that you were gone and not coming back. Is she supposed to WASTE her life sitting around waiting for you to make up your mind? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">With all due Respect..

You have been on the board long enough to know that regardless of what dad was doing at the time...it was WRONG of mom to be doing this. The content of the emails was inappropriate ( I believe she admitted to that) and seeking others to meet her emotional needs while still married is WRONG. Being a BS doesn't make it ok.

I should add...ESPECIALLY when they are a BS because they are vulnerable to an affair themselves...be it emotional or physical.

Her choice would have been to file for divorce...get on with her life...THEN start with the lunches with men...and the emails with OM...NOT while she was still married.

It matters not what he was doing at the time. It didn't give her licence to behave inappropriately.

It does no good to "measure" the severity of the wrongdoings.

JMHO
committed

I have been doing a lot of reading on this thread.....I admit that I don't know the whole history. But from an outsider's perspective, here's what I see.

1) We are commenting on issues that have happened a month (? or so) in the past. They have been resurrected by the show, but for all intensive purposes, they were a month ago.

2) We are commenting on how M23B and D23B should feel (comments on M23B should leave, comments on D23B should feel bad for XYZ). What we are not asking them is how they feel. We cannot tell them how they should feel. That is a DJ.

3) We are focussing on what is right and what is wrong (who was "right" about the racing, Cher, the EA, wanting the OC). What's that saying? Would you rather be right, or would you rather be happy? This is not a scorekeeping match - rather it is a marriage that needs to heal. And we here at MB can either help....or hinder.


So here's my proposal. It is what I would like to try to do, and if anybody sees fit, please feel free to join.

I would like to try to focus on how each of you (D23B and M23B) feels right now...in the present....regardless of if it is right or wrong.

So here are my questions for each of you....

1) Do you (D23B and M23B) want to work on the marriage?

2) Will each of you give up your OP (OW and lawyer) if indeed you have not? (I realize OC is involved - but I mean give up OW in any private way)

3) Are you each willing to try to POJA topics from this point on - regardless of whether it might seem "insensitive" that the other wanted to do something. That is the point of POJA - to get to an agreement that you are both happy with.

4) Are you willing to look past the "feelings" and "motives" of the other, to look at the actions? For instance - D23B agreed to not go racing after discussion (since they POJA'd, the 'feelings' behind it should be negated by the action he is choosing to perform). And M23B gave up her OM (regardless of her 'feelings' for wanting him, it should be negated by her action of giving him up).

I'm just curious to know how "willing" to save this M you both are. You are going to have to quit scorekeeping (particularly about things in the past), and begin working on actions in the present and future. Only then will you be able to go back, and review what the past may have held.

JMVHO.

Quick threadjack here.....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Tell hcii 2 give us an update on that 3-yr old!

-ol' 2long
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 2long,

I will tell him when I see him on Thanksgiving Day. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wait a minute!

Y'all been cussing and dis-cussing me while I am away? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I do lurk ever so quietly....When I'm not chasing the 3 year-old.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

You been talking about me, Sis? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Life is good...REAL good....

HCII


Edited to add...

Need to change the sig line...That crap is in the past..Irrevelant now...VERY irrelevant...

<small>[ November 13, 2004, 08:57 AM: Message edited by: hcii ]</small>

Hi, Committed,
You're absolutely right, of course. I should have clarified it more, although I did post that Mom stopped what she was doing when it was pointed out to her that her behavior was inappropriate.

I just wanted Dad to understand that these guys were making Mom feel what she hadn't felt from him...that she is a beautiful and desirable woman, and that he should not expect to have her sitting around for the rest of her life waiting on him to make up his mind. Of course, she should divorce him before she does anything about it!

If I remember correctly, when Dad found out that these other guys wanted to date Mom, he decided that he wanted Mom back at that time. My ex-DiL has been like that. She was a serial cheater and wanted the divorce so she could be "single", but the minute our S started dating anyone, she'd be back on the scene, wanting to "reconcile". She ran off several woment that he dated by creating problems that they rightfully didn't want in their lives. All it boiled down to was that she wanted to play around, but still have our S on the sideline for when she was between boyfriends, financial reasons, or whatever. She's now on her 2nd marriage since their divorce 6 years ago. Thankfully, S just remarried to a girl who loves him enough to stand up beside and for him, taking on his 3 kids in the process. ExDiL is/was a cake-eater to the extreme. Dad reminds me of her....wanting to keep OW around (at least until he finds out if her baby is his or not), but wanting to keep Mom at home as a "backup". No spouse deserves to be kept as a backup.

So, yes, Mom should have stayed away from the emailing and the lunch, but I can understand that she felt her marriage was basically over, even though not legally. But, she DID put on the brakes once she faced up to the inappropriateness of her actions.

I now find myself wondering what other men would be like, only I have always been extremely careful to stay out of any one-on-one situations with other men for the life of our marriage (and will continue to do so). Heck, I even told my H when any of his friends came onto me, but it never seemed to matter to him; he continued to be friends with these guys. I never understood that; if a friend of mine had come onto him, I would have cut her out of my life in a heartbeat.

Anyway, I can understand how Mom felt, and I think Dad should try to understand, too. He should also consider that she STOPPED the contact. I guess that's what I was trying to convey to Dad.

You know what folks,look at how much time and energy WE are putting into their relationship/marriage for mom and dad and is anything changing? Mom may have garnered some more insight into her own needs and her own weaknesses but really,what is there left to say that has not been covered many times over by all of us? That's why I stopped posting to mom directly.

They are both adults,they both have a multitude of areas with which to gather information and help regarding their problems,they are talking with Dr.Phil for heavens sake and have also seen Dr.Harley.Mom gets upset frequently at anything she doesn't agree with(i.e. all the exclamation points everwhere)and dad,well,he barely even comes by anymore,too "volatile" for him perhaps.

At some point you have to stop leading them around by the hand and say,it's your life,do what you want but for HER,SHE is the one that can put a stop to all this but does not.As Dr.Phil has said before there is some payoff here for them both to be caught up in all this mess still and no,I don't believe,at this point,it's the chance of keeping her marriage together for the kids and for herself/dad.That point is LONG past.This is all about dad's REFUSAL to make a decision or a change one way or another which to me,is either incredibly selfish and/or incredibly unintelligent.

This is a prime example of why I made the decision to file for a D.Now,I have heard some say that they(WS) should do the dirty work,why file if that's not what you want,don't give up,you're giving them what they want,they they they.But it's not sbout THEY anymore,it's about ME/YOU.Yes,making the decision to file for a D is painful,it's not what most,if not all of us here as BS's want but the alternative is not anything near what a person should endure.Even Dr.Harley has a time limit on a Plan B and then filing(2 years I think).Not that that is written is stone or that everyone has to follow that guideline.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I wish them both well but nothing will change unless they make a change,in themselves, and decide that living as they are,sinking ever deeper into the quagmire,is no longer healthy,fulfilling and no longer an option.

Next stop: Jerry Springer. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

This is my last post on this thread.

O

Yep, I figured that out a while ago, about the joint payoff.

But I am learning a lot reading the responses of all on this thread, (haven't been to the other one and won't either).

You got it exactly right in my opinion Octobergirl.

My simpathy remains with Mom regarding her dad, however. It's a heartbreaking, horrible thing to go through, watching a parent get sicker and sicker with cancer.

Mom,
The person who needs to change is you. On Friday, I crossed the Rubicon. I told my H, that unless we follow Harley's program immediately, I would request a one year separation of no contact to regroup and protect my own willingness to work on the M when he is ready.

Dad is in control here and is running over you, justifying his behavior by your perhaps inappropropriate lunch and his own desire to get his needs met REGARDLESS of the impact on you.

I am telling you what I did -- may not be appropriate for you. Getting away for a time period SET BY ME put me in control.

Funny, he said he's ready now to go through Harley's program. I said that, if there is another interruption, they'll be a one - year separation.

Value yourself, Mom.

Cherished

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Cherished:
Value yourself, Mom.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">((( Cherished )))

Seriously Cherished, I am falling for ya! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Octobergirl:
<strong> You know what folks,look at how much time and energy WE are putting into their relationship/marriage for mom and dad and is anything changing? Mom may have garnered some more insight into her own needs and her own weaknesses but really,what is there left to say that has not been covered many times over by all of us? That's why I stopped posting to mom directly.

They are both adults,they both have a multitude of areas with which to gather information and help regarding their problems,they are talking with Dr.Phil for heavens sake and have also seen Dr.Harley.Mom gets upset frequently at anything she doesn't agree with(i.e. all the exclamation points everwhere)and dad,well,he barely even comes by anymore,too "volatile" for him perhaps.

At some point you have to stop leading them around by the hand and say,it's your life,do what you want but for HER,SHE is the one that can put a stop to all this but does not.As Dr.Phil has said before there is some payoff here for them both to be caught up in all this mess still and no,I don't believe,at this point,it's the chance of keeping her marriage together for the kids and for herself/dad.That point is LONG past.This is all about dad's REFUSAL to make a decision or a change one way or another which to me,is either incredibly selfish and/or incredibly unintelligent.

This is a prime example of why I made the decision to file for a D.Now,I have heard some say that they(WS) should do the dirty work,why file if that's not what you want,don't give up,you're giving them what they want,they they they.But it's not sbout THEY anymore,it's about ME/YOU.Yes,making the decision to file for a D is painful,it's not what most,if not all of us here as BS's want but the alternative is not anything near what a person should endure.Even Dr.Harley has a time limit on a Plan B and then filing(2 years I think).Not that that is written is stone or that everyone has to follow that guideline.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I wish them both well but nothing will change unless they make a change,in themselves, and decide that living as they are,sinking ever deeper into the quagmire,is no longer healthy,fulfilling and no longer an option.

Next stop: Jerry Springer. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

This is my last post on this thread.

O </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BINGO !!!!!!!!!!! This thread just flags how co-dependant we all are. If it wasn't so incredibly tragic, you could step back and laugh about it. This is sad and I think continuing to post 2 x4's to Dad is of likely to be of no value. He gets it, and maybe quite honestly he is relishing all of this attention. He has shown a tremnedous power to exact powerful responses from all of us (including myslef).

I am issuing an apology for my part in the pissing match with him. On reflection I am embarassed about it.

Dad23b: I give you my word that there will be no more 2 x 4's for you from me.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This thread just flags how co-dependant we all are. If it wasn't so incredibly tragic, you could step back and laugh about it. This is sad and I think continuing to post 2 x4's to Dad is of likely to be of no value. He gets it, and maybe quite honestly he is relishing all of this attention. He has shown a tremnedous power to exact powerful responses from all of us (including myslef). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">lemonman,

Unfortunately he is not the only one relishing in all the attention. The entire postings of this marriage have longed ceased to be about repairing a marriage...and became about the codependency, drama...and now Hollywood.

I do find it sad...but I find it laughable that so many people have been sucked into it. I will admit that I got sucked into the drama of it all...but no longer.

committed

editing to add:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am issuing an apology for my part in the pissing match with him. On reflection I am embarassed about it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was glad to read that...I was thinking that you would want to come back and apologize for that once you came to your senses...lol. Embarrassment isn't such a bad thing...it teaches us to NOT repeat the action.

<small>[ November 13, 2004, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: committedandlovingit ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by committedandlovingit:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This thread just flags how co-dependant we all are. If it wasn't so incredibly tragic, you could step back and laugh about it. This is sad and I think continuing to post 2 x4's to Dad is of likely to be of no value. He gets it, and maybe quite honestly he is relishing all of this attention. He has shown a tremnedous power to exact powerful responses from all of us (including myslef). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">lemonman,

Unfortunately he is not the only one relishing in all the attention. The entire postings of this marriage have longed ceased to be about repairing a marriage...and about the codependency, drama...and now Hollywood.

I do find it sad...but I find it laughable that so many people have been sucked into it. I will admit that I got sucked into the drama of it all...but no longer.

committed </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, that too but I didn't feel like getting the wrath against me from "SOM" or one of the other posters. This will be my last post having anything to do with this situation. I can't add anything here and will just muddy waters. I am all "capped" out with regards to this situation.

Thanks weaver & joe c., it's nice to know that my words had a positive impact.

Sadly, I feel that I too must bow out of this discussion. I may be able to contribute more once M23B's has grieved for her father and set some boundaries for D23B's... AND once D23B's has come to terms with the fact he needs help repairing the hole in his heart. This hole drives him to seek external validation. He is a searching for someone to make him feel worthwhile/valuble. Why? 'Cuz he doens't believe he is and this is a problem that pre-dates his relationship with M23B's.

<small>[ November 13, 2004, 12:02 PM: Message edited by: mgm ]</small>

"Oh the [drama]!!!" (paraphrasing the Hindenberg reporter)

Dad: You obviously didn't read my posts about the concert or your race. Or, you did, but you misinterpreted it through fog-filled eyes.

"Another shocker for you all will come next week when Dr phil nails me on me having OW over to the house while my wife visits with her dying dad. Ouch. Well folks what she was not telling me or you was she was having romantic lunches with some lawyer after tending to dad. conveniently forgot to tell me about it."

You know what, though? I DON'T CARE! 2 wrongs don't make a right, even if 3 lefts do. Separate your perceptions of mom's "crimes" from your own. They're the least of your worries (as yours are hers, frankly - the CHOICE issue).

Threadjack: hcii!!!!!! So good 2 hear things are going well for you!!!!" End of threadjack.

-ol' 2long

Octobergirl:
I think MT3B is close to standing up for herself.
MT3B, if you let this go on much longer, you'll be like believer -- past caring what he does.

Pepperband: Thanks for the help you gave me. I hope to pass it on to MT3B!

Cherished

<small>[ November 13, 2004, 02:04 PM: Message edited by: Cherished ]</small>

I'm threadjacking too.

Cherished, my computer crapped out and I lost what I wrote to you. In short, I'm thrilled for you! I didn't follow your threads closely, but early on I could see something in you. I couldn't explain it so I didn't post to you about it. I think you'll understand it now without an explanation because you're living it!

I'm thrilled for you Cherished! Your strength and beauty shine through!

I am with the others who are bowing out. I see no possiblity of fruit coming out of these continuing threads, where we get only partial information from MT3 and defensiveness from DT3.

~ Snow

I,too, have been struck with the degree of our co-dependency in this relationship, on this site. With co-dependency comes "rescuing" and "enabling". We express our opinions, for one side, or both. Mom and Dad then respond to US. This allows them to not keep their energy and focus on dealing directly with each other. It can serve to take enough of the edge off their negative feelings, such that they can be relieved and distracted for the moment. This is not going to help them in the long run, and may even delay resolution, with all our "helpful" advice = distractions. Behavioral psychology observes that in relationships, "Negative attention is better than no attention". Are we supporting and rewarding unhealthy types of attention with this couple?? (This is not to say that any of this behavior is intentional or conscious.)