Hi Myrta
Your H loves you.
What is happening is that he is feeling unsure about himself. He is perceiving you not wanting to participate in SF (for legitimate reasons) as a sign of rejection and then playing it up in his head as him thinking that he must mean less to you than the OM did.

How do I know this? Because that is exactly how I was for a LONG time after DDAY. (much longer than 5 months). He is in pain. He is also probably concerned that you be happy nd maybe worries that you are not.

There is probably not much that you can do to help him other than trying to let him express his feelings and not trying to negate them. Just being heard and comforted. The fact is, dealing with his insecurity and fear of rejection and also his competetive feelings for you love with OM unfortunately his his job and will take him a lot of time.

Because you forgive someone, it does not mean that you don't still experience pain, joy any emotion for that matter.

Unfortunately when he expresses his fears, this makes you feel guilty and like it is all in vain and you will never recover. Hang in there, you hearing him and staying and allowing him to work through this will eventually get through to him.

I hate to tell you this, but something similar happened here just yesterday (and I am more than 3 years into recovery). I initiated, H did not respond. Fact was he was just tired. But it triggered me into comparing myself with OW. How he would have reacted with her in similar circumstance. he doesn't really love me, etc...

My poor H, he was just tired. Fortunately, I was able to express what I was feeling. My H held me, reassured me. Didn't negate how I was feeling or tell me I shouldn't feel that way. Said he understood why I might have those feelings. That he was sorry that I have those feelings. But that he truly was just tired. Oh boy I ended up feeling so understood and supported and so in love with my H. What could have been a negative thing, actually brought us closer.

In the past and early after Dday, it would have ended in a screaming match. It has taken a lot of time, counseling and work to get here. And as you can see, unfortunately triggers still occur from time to time. No relationship can be sickly sweet all the time and it is how you handle the issues that will count.

Hang in there
C&S

<small>[ November 14, 2004, 05:16 PM: Message edited by: confused&scared ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Myrta:
<strong> MELODY LANE- I understand what you are saying. But do we really have to do it EVERYNIGHT??? Can we just cuddle sometimes? I love to cuddle with him, he is always so warm to cuddle with.
But now he is popping viagras left and right and is ready 24=7!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
I want our marriage to work, I do, Melody Lane. I love HIM. I dont want us to divorce. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NO, this is all part of communication. Trust me Myrta, at first when this happend to me I wholeheartedly believed that my WS was fully 100% responsible for the destruction of the marriage. That is not the case.

I think Stanley (like all men) had his ego ahattered when you betrayed him, The shame, and hurt this casues us is very very painful, We feel like we are not "men" anymore. Maybe his wanting to have contiual sex with you is his way of shpwing you (subconsciouly) that he is still a man. I think what the others say is so important regarding dealing with all of this. There is no way in hell that you can have a truly "recovered" marriage so soon after D-day. It took years probably for you to get to having an affair. The affair was just the symptoms of the disease. MC is a must in my honest opinion (although with a disclaimer that I did not "save my marriage as you know). YOu know I feel that a lot of marriages are not truly recovereable here but yours has a chance given the other variables. There is no true chance however if you and your husband don't put everything into it. Your husbands personal shame nad ego are shattered, you have to realize that. Saying that he forgives the affair and truly meaning it may take alot of time.

* oops ! Fingers just ran away again ! *

<small>[ November 15, 2004, 02:32 PM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

It has been 5.5 months since D-day.

I still don't know why Myrta had the affair other than FOO.

Pre-affair we made love twice a week.

Myrta wants to go back to our pre-affair married lifestyle. When she said this (the other day) I asked her why would she want to go back to the old days if she was so unhappy as to have an affair.

So Myrta is doing exactly what we did pre-affair. She wants sex twice a week. At this point I would be happy with sex three times a week. Not a big difference.

Myrta started the affair when I entered my 50s (I am now 54 years old). She hooked up with a 50-year old man who who would pop Viagras before giving her SF. They would have SF constantly and the frequency was only curtailed by distance and because there is so much a 50 year-old can do (even with with Viagra).

Myrta's affair was all about sex. The emotional attachment came later so she would feel good about herself.

When she was having SF with OM she turned me down in bed many times and I questioned why? She said we were changing----- not kids anymore. I believed her and adapted to a lower frequency.

Into my 50s I noted that my sexual stamina was not as good as in my 40s (surprise, surprise!). To be honest I paid no attention because Myrta game me so little SF and when she did she seemed distant and uninterested. She gave me lousy SF and I am sure she thought the same of me.

Post D-day I was in shock, the first day I didn't want her around me. On the ensuing days I had a major case of premature ejaculation and felt inadequate to give her SF. I took Levitra and it helped my premature ejaculation and increased my stamina to that of an 18 year old kid on steroids! I know most take Ginkgo Bilova tid and it keeps me robust all day.

After D-day Myrta wanted sex daily because her libido was sky high. The libido was high not because of me, but because of the affair. Now she wants it to be like old times.

Myrta complained about my skills making love and that my size was wrong. Said OM moved better even thou OM is built like a Sumo wrestler. I am of normal body weight and height. Her record was four orgasms in one session.

Myrta saved the OM's T-shirts so she could smell him following the sessions at the local motel.

And now I am told I am not supposed to feel bad because she rejects me in bed!

Give me a break!

Anger------- I have been quite calm. I was mildly disappointed with her lack of participation in SF on a Saturday night. Particularly after we were romantic with each other ALL DAY (her words). Where is the sense of romance? When Myrta noted my displeasure she exploded----------- not me.

BTW, I forgive Myrta everyday or every time I have a thought that resembles resentment.

MELODYLANE- I am not offended by your laughing,dont worry. Before I took offense in everything that was said to me here, but not anymore.

CYMANCA- Yes, I guess you are right of him seeking me, seeing it as a sign of love. But really, when he seeks me in bed is not in such a loving way. He is too adamant about his actions.

LEMONMAN- I understand that I did a pretty bad thing destroying his manhood and thats why he needs to prove himself constantly. But, I am here, with him, no contact,I am dedicating myself to him, to our marriage. He thinks the affair was all my fault. He does not have part of what was missing in our marriage and thats why I went out seeking. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

BOBPURE- I can do it with my husband several times a day too. But I like things to be more sublte from his part. And more importantly, I like to look for him, he knows this. I have always been that way, I like to be the leader, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
I love to cuddle with him, and I dont know it more often, because he sees it as a sign that I want to have inmediate sex. I like him, just to hold me sometimes, to relax, not to think that there is a sperm competition contest and he has to be the winner. He is already the winner, I am here with him, I chose him, not the horrific OM>.

Myrta

P.S, I just got back from church with our daughters. He did not want to go with us, he stayed home. We always get closer in church. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

<small>[ November 14, 2004, 06:29 PM: Message edited by: Myrta ]</small>

It is normal for you to feel the way you are. No one here is trying to say that. As a BS I think I understand exactly how you are feeling. We were doing it like bunnies after Dday too. The frequency of the initial SF in our case had to slow down. Would have killed us both. I liken it now to a honeymoon period.

I understand where you are coming from. Pior to Dday we had SF very infrequently. In fact I had considered that my H was suffering from impotency problems and didn't know how to tell me. Unfortunately I know SF was occuring very frequently in his other relationship.

My H also told me that OW would O more easily than me, was more easily Tturned on, was taller so the fot was better etc.....

Worked havoc with my selfesteem and my sense of my own desirability as a woman. Now he says it was a way of rationalising it all at the time. That in fact it was not better. But I still have my insecurities in this and it has been a big belt to the ego.

I feel very vulnerable talking about this publicly. We're getting to the nitty gritty of my deepest insecurities of how I feel about myself as a woman here. And the fact is I hope I measure up. I want to be desirable. I want to be sexy.

I am not a man, but I presume men feel similar thoughts. They probably aslo want to be desirable and feel that they are a sexy man.

The affair was a huge blow to this part of me. It has taken me a long time to gain back my self confidence in this area. I was insatiable wanting sex for a long time, and then would go right off it. All me trying to work myself out again.

Trouble is Stanly, unfortunately this is your work to do. Your wife, hopefully will see you pain and be understanding.

Try not to hold this agains her. My H took a long time before he really got it. He personalised my pain when I felt less than desiarable and acted defensively and felt I was punishing, rather than forgiving for a long time.

In the end it was all about my own self doubt. He sees this now. But it took more than a short space of time.

Remember that your W is dealing with her own sense of guilt and is probably desparate to feel forgiven. Then she might be able to forgive herself.

Believe me I understand how you feel. It is so hard. This was for me the hardest part of my recovery (and still is at times, but now my H seems to have learnt how to help through it).

If I had given up too early, we may never have got to where we are now.
C&S

The above post was written to Stanly

THOS- I dont want to give up on h im. But it seems that he wants me to give up on him. He wants to leave me, I know this. From the beginning he wants to do it, but he is afraid of the damage to our girls,our son.
I have been meaning to get that book Torn Asunder. Sounds like an interesting one to read. I will probably buy it tomorrow. Thanks.
His anger has been there from the beginning. I have gotten millions of "love busters' from his part, from day one. The anger sometimes, does not surface for some days, and I get hopeful that we are finally are in the right track, but then "last night" happens again.

MYRTA

Torn Asunder is a great Book. Very good for understanding the anger on both sides of an affair
C&S

Myrta, I think he needs loving reassurance from you and then more reassurance. It can and does get better. He can get beyond this...but it takes time. Much longer than 5 mos.

<small>[ November 14, 2004, 06:49 PM: Message edited by: Trix ]</small>

Myrta, if you start chasing him around the bedroom, instead of the other way around, I bet he would start relaxing. He needs all the reassurance he can get right now. THAT is the real problem here. He is deeply wounded and needs your help to heal.

Rejection in bed = love buster

I was told OM moved well and was never rejected despite skin rashes, fever, and even when Myrta had her period. I never received SF when Myrta hads her period

Are those love busters?

I am not supposed to initiate SF anymore. That is what Myrta wants.

If she gave me affection there woud be no conflict among us.

She cannot give affection. She is unable to open up and give herself. I am not sure why.

Yeah, she is safe with me. I would never do anything to harm her. She is secure with me. I have no plans of divorcing her unless she puts a gun in my head or depletes my love bank. Which ever comes 1st!

Myrta,

You are getting some excellent advice here. Please hang in there. 5 months is not nearly enough time to make any assumptions.

What I notice in both your and Stanley's posts is that DJ's are being made where you are both claiming to know each other's intents.....


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He wants me to ask him for the divorce. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But it seems that he wants me to give up on him. He wants to leave me, I know this. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Has he actually said he wants out? Has he said he wants to leave? You may be making an assumption here. If he has not left yet, then his actions will indicate otherwise.

Myrta, you must trust that he will be able to handle this trigger. That's exactly what it is.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Myrta's affair was all about sex. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The libido was high not because of me, but because of the affair. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Stanley, has she said each of these to you, or is this how you interpret things?

Stanley, as unfair and horrific as it is, you will have to try to trust that if/when she turns you down, it is not because of your manhood. It could be that she wants to be more with you - maybe intimate in an emotional way.

I have to second the others that you don't need to compete with OM. Your W sees you as more of a "package" than OM - a much more desireable, loving, permanent package. Otherwise, she would not be here trying to rebuild the M. You don't want to be like OM. She threw OM away. You want to be you. She fell in love with you before. She can do it again. But not because you are trying to compete. Only because you will be the bigger man in trying to forgive her for the acts which will haunt her for a much longer time.

The thing is - You both need to believe in each other. You need to be radically honest, and if you are, then you can ask the motives. And you will have to begin trusting that the motives are as you say. Be honest. That is the greatest gift you can give each other.

Myrta, give it time. Stanley, realize this is a HUGE trigger, and try to work through it. Please try to let Myrta help.

Good luck!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Myrta's affair was all about sex.
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quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The libido was high not because of me, but because of the affair.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Myrta said she talked herself into being in love so she would not feel bad about having an affair for SF.

I couldn't understand why her libido was so high after D-day. Initially she didn't know herself. But afterwards she thought she was all sexed up because of the torrid affair.

This was followed by your typical reduced libido of withdrawal. Last contact with OM was a little over two months ago. She may still be in withdrawal------- who knows--- she will not tell me.

I am radically honest, but i really have little to hide. I love her, always did and never said I want a divorce. The one that keeps using the D word is Myrta.

I have forgiven her, but whenever I feel anger or resentment I forgive her once again. I will keep doing this until I have no residual resentment. I have always provided for her and she IS SAFE!

There would be zero resentment if she was more loving. For some reason SF twice a week is not enough for me. Three a week would be fine, but we don't seem to hit that mark. I also like SF on Fridays and Saturdays after going out to eat, seeing a show, ect. I also enjoy the idea of SF when next day is a holiday with no need to go to work. OTOH Myrta does not seem to enjoy the weekends or SF on Friday and Saturdays. SF in the middle of the week is OK, but I do work real hard and to me SF seems way more romantic on the weekends after a couple of glasses of wine. BTE, Myrta refuses to try to at least enhance her libido by taking a little bit of ethanol. A night out, good conversation, flirting, ect does not do the trick. With her SF happens when the desire shows up. If the desire does not show up she is not going to do it. That was OK with me in the past, but now i have a problem handling her rejection.

As for OM------------------ I don't compete with him. In fact, I always told Myrta I will call the OM for her if she wants him. IMHO, Myrta's worst nightmare would be to try to have a relationship in the open with OM.

FOR THE RECORDHERE!!

WE DOIT MORE THAN TWICE A WEEK!! HE IS EXAGERATING BIG TIME. WE DO IT EVERY COUPLE OF DAYS, HE WANTS EVERY DAY!

MELODY LANE----so I should start chasing myhusband around the bedroom!! HMM..Its funny, because the first years of our marriage, he turned me down sooooooooooooooo many times!! I wonder why, we were newly weds. I want to start chasing him around, when it really really comes out natural. I dont want to be fake in my actions to him.

TRIX- I need five months is really not a long time. Maybe thats the problem here, he thinks we should be perfectly fine already. I think we should be more advance in the recovery. We are expecting too much?? I think I give him reassurance, but he says I amnot loving. I cuddle up to him in bed ,sometimes, like I said before, because if I do it he thinks I want SEX!!! Not just simple sweet cuddling with my husband. Friday when he got home from work, my oldest daughter was here,and she could stay with our 12 year old, so I invited him for dinner. We had a romantic dinner, we laughed a lot, talked a lot.I get up with him everyday really early to make his breakfast. Buy him little trinkets at the store,on tuesday I am taking his car to have the tires change. I think I show him I care in different ways, but is not enough.

Myrta
I think I behave like a loving wife to him. But not according to him.

OK......

Myrta, what are some of the things that get you in the mood (aside from alcohol)?

Stanley, are you and Myrta willing to POJA about the amount and when? Not entirely your solution, not entirely hers....but a compromise.

Myrta, you will have to realize that whether you like it or not, unfortunately, the rejection is obviously a trigger for Stanley. You can be supportive, and continue to let him know that you love him, want to be with him, and reassure him that he is everything you want.

Stanley, you will have to deal with this trigger yourself. It hurts, but you cannot go the "if she would only, then it would all be better." The trigger will still be there 6 years in the future if you two "fix" things just by her giving you what you want. The point is to find out why you feel upset when she doesn't want to have SF. Is it because you feel like she doesn't love you? Is it because you feel rejected, and you are afraid of feeling abandoned or unwanted in that way?

Try to talk to each other in terms of "feelings." I feel XYZ. Don't talk about what the other makes you feel. Talk about feelings in terms of anger, sadness, fear, happiness, etc.

For instance.....I feel afraid that if I get emotionally involved with anyone, then I will be abandoned. This fear is based on my past relationship with my H. H did not make me feel this way. But it is how I feel. It is not right nor wrong. And I have to deal with it. Someone can be supportive of me, but it is still my feeling to deal with. The past may be responsible for this feeling, but it is my job in the present to redefine and redirect the feeling.

Myrta, how do you feel when Stanley repeatedly asks for SF? Why do you think you feel that way?

Stanley, how do you feel when she rejects you? Why do you think you feel that way?

L.I.T. Is right on the money here with her advice.
It is excellent. Please listen to her. These seem to be the issues here that need dealing with. It hurts for both of you and is a very sensitive and loaded subject, but to get through this you unfortunately need to deal with it.

My H and I ended up seeing a sexual counseler. She amongst a lot of conseling, and let me tell you she was a saint to put up with me and my husband when I look back on it.

Anyway, she put us on to the work of David Schnarch. He is the author of Passionate Marriage. The book is great. There are counselers out there who follow his approach. I would recommend you read it. It is not a guide to physical sex. It is more about confronting yourself with the issues that arise and stretching yourself.

Hope the two of you can work this out.
C&S

<small>[ November 14, 2004, 07:55 PM: Message edited by: confused&scared ]</small>

L.I.T. Sorry, but I dont drink at all!! He wants me to drink ,but I just dont like the smell, nor the taste. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
We spend a lot of time together. We watch some tv when he gets home from work. I like it when he touches my hair, gives me massages. But from massages, we have to have sex in his eyes.
Yes, he always looks at me with sadness in his eyes and tells me that he is afraid I am going to leave him. He says that he feels something bad coming up. I dont have any intentions of going back to the OM. But he thinks that I am going .
I do things to him unexpectedly, he likes that. Kiss his cheeks, hug him,I think I try to please him a lot. But it all boils down to sex, he thinks the only way to show love is having SEX!!

Myrta
to "weaken" and I am going to do that.
I really feel a lot of pressure, to tell you the truth when he wants sex all the time. I see it like something so unnatural, because he has never been that way.I feel that he is making a show to convince me , when I am already sure that I want to stay with him.

Myrta, sweetie,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> L.I.T. Sorry, but I dont drink at all!! He wants me to drink ,but I just dont like the smell, nor the taste. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I like it when he touches my hair, gives me massages. But from massages, we have to have sex in his eyes. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was asking what gets you in the mood outside of alcohol since you don't drink. I hate to say this, but you gave me an answer of things you like other than sex. What gets you in the mood? What are some things that he could do that would help you to be more receptive to SF?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I really feel a lot of pressure, </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Myrta, this is the closest you came to talking about anything you feel. And pressure is not really a feeling. I want to talk about you - not what Stanley does or doesn't want. Not how he makes you feel. Not how he interprets love. I want to talk about you.........

How do you feel when you feel pressured? Scared? Fearful? Angry? Sad? Remorseful? Tell me how you feel.