</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Stanley568:
<strong> LemonMan:

However, Myrta is like--------------- well many WWs. She had to continue contact with OM behind my back and lied about it. Up to this day I don’t really know for sure if contact has ended. She practically went into tears when I said something derogatory about OM even though I was saying the truth. At the onset she always defended the integrity of OM. For God’s sake---- if I had an affair and my wife wanted to thrash the OW I would gladly allow that. She was so protective of OM and was scared to death of me saying insulting remarks to the OM. Please----------- what is up with that? Why so protective of OM? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I can't really give you anything here. Your feelings are frustrations are valid and honestly are what I would feel also...maybe worse. I once again reiterate that you guys need a professional MC...and as soon as tomorrow.

Goodluck.

L.I.T. Do you think its normal for me to feel so scared when I reject my husband of 30 years? Affair or no affair? Should I feel such anguish inside of me, because I dont want to do it sometimes?
I know I should understand how he feels and give in to his sexual advances ALWAYS, but I just can't, especially not after him being cruel with remarks during the day. Whats going to happen in the night, has to do, in what has happened during the day between both of us.
I had tried to be descriptive to m y husband, pre-affair,tell him things when we were not in bed, frisky things, and he would always say, "this is not the time". So, I got accustomed to be more non-verbal with him. It gets me very sexual to hear "things" in and out of bed. That gets me in the mood big time.
From his part, it is a "power struggle". He wants to show me, that he is right and that I am wrong.

Myrta

JL:

Thanks for posting.

I believe you are correct----------------- It is really the same old. We don’t seem to connect in a manner where I feel reassured. I think she enjoys the game. Myrta has a knack for putting silence spots on conversation that always leave you hanging and wondering. She has a way answering questions that leave you with more doubts than answers. She is not a talkative WW and that is where I get all confused. I simply do not get positive feedback. OTOH, with OM the positive feedback was abundant----------- I saw the emails.

I wonder if this is the syndrome where the female gives just enough of herself to keep the mystery alive and does not want to be an open book. Similar to the women who sleep with a guy on the 1st date because the man is not perceived as a keeper whereas they hold out as much as they can for the man they consider a keeper. Maybe that is why she gave so much to the OM without hesitation and has a hard time sharing with me. I know I am being presumptuous by saying this, but I am quite confused by all of this.

I had said many times that affection works great for me and the effects last about 36 hours. So when I go without SF for 3-4 days I start to get irritable. I know I sound like a demanding SOB for saying this, but I can only express how I feel.

JUST LEARNING- Yes, I know that sex its very important,especially right now,for my husband. Its very important to me too. As a matter of fact, I get very tense, if more than three days passed and nothing goes on. But even, when I want to do it, when my bodyneeds it, if my husband is giving me "love busters"left and right I JUST CANNOT DO IT!!!
He has to be more consistant with me, he needs to make me feel safe, he hasnot accomplish that yet. He makes me scared, he makes me wonder, he makes fear for my future,our future. He seems unstable in his emotions. Before he hardly show his emotions, now he shows thems soooooo much. He is so emotional, that I get scared for his mental state.
JustLearning- maybe we are not going to make it, maybe there is not a bright future ahead of us. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />
I have opened up a lot to him. YOu think I haven't, but I have. I talk to him, he talks to me, we do talk a lot. Sometimes I talk too much, and then he does not like to hear what I have to say. I have to try to connect with him, but he always looks at me with such resentment, with hate, I would say. It scares me to see this in his eyes.
I have always handle pressure pretty well,like I posted to you before I always handle all the problems that arise in our family, so he would not worry. He will tell me himself, dont tell me anything, Idont want to know" So I would do anything in my power to solve whatever it was.
But this problem that I created, its bigger than the world, I dont know if we are going tobe able to handle it and come out as winners.
Yes, we do live in the Potomac,Maryland area. Next time you are in this area, let us know, we can meet you for drinks or dinner, if we haven't split up yet. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

MYRTA

Yep--- anything I say can be a Love Buster if it is not well received.

However, rejection = one million love busters and then I get resentful and then I may say something that sounds like a love buster. It is a vicious circle!

Question for both of you: If the Viagra was taken out of the picture, would this be a good thing or a bad thing? Mryta, if Stanley were to agree to POJA his Viagra usage with you, would you feel more comfortable? Stanley, would you be open to this? KB

KB:

I think the issue is a disparity between Myrta and I regarding SF.

BTW, I never took any of these drugs until I discovered the affair and realized OM was taking them before SF. In addition in the aftermath of the affair I was so humiliated that I don't think I was able to function properly long enough and then I had premature ejaculation. I think the the latter was for not having SF with Myrta on a regular basis. I was like a kid doing it the 1st time. They work great for premature ejaculation in that they somehow reduced the sensations.

Has your husband tried them?

Myrta,

Oh you two will be together. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I am pretty sure of this. However, both of you need to step back and really read each others posts. Did you read what Stanley just posted to me? He is confused, he doesn't know what to do, and yes he does NEED you.

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He has to be more consistant with me, he needs to make me feel safe, he hasnot accomplish that yet. He makes me scared, he makes me wonder, he makes fear for my future,our future.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Myrta, he cannot be consistent right now. That was how he used to be and it failed him. He is searching for how to be so that YOU WILL NOT LEAVE HIM. Don't you see that? He is going for more sex, like OM did. He is showing emotions partly because he can hardly control them and partly because he NEEDS you to see within him what you have not seen. What you have not seen and do NOT see now is that he NEEDS you to be part of his life.

So calm down OK? You fear the changes, but in many ways you should be rejoicing in them. They mean he cares, he wants you to be happy with him, and your affair strongly suggested to him that you were not happy with him. Would you please do me a favor?

Would you please take two weeks and ACT like your H loves you, wants you desperately, and simply craves to be with you. If you would do this and smile each and every time he wants to be with you if it is just to cuddle or more <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . Tell yourself that "this man cannot get enough of me and I love him for it." Tell yourself this and act on it for two weeks and then tell me what YOU feel and how he is acting.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He seems unstable in his emotions. Before he hardly show his emotions, now he shows thems soooooo much. He is so emotional, that I get scared for his mental state.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I used this analogy with another poster and I will with you. Your H was emotionally stable because he had multiple emotional legs to stand on, and you were one. You amputated that leg and now he is unstable. He wants to stablize but he cannot. He needs your support. He needs to LEAN on you right now. Now the good news is that emotional appendages can be regrown <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> and his will regrow, it just takes time, and until it happens he will seem a bit unsteady with his emotions. Please realize this is not so much about you, as it is him in uncharted waters and not knowing what to do there.

Do you see what I mean? I am guessing but you are used to NOT needing to support your H emotionally. YOu have many other ways but emotionally...no. What you have not realized is that he has always leaned on you emotionally and now he is not sure he can. He is trying to figure out if he can. So not only tell him he can lean on you, let him. It is NOT pressure he is putting on you Myrta, it is his weight. They feel the same in someways, but they are very different in reality. He needs your support more than he needs to control you direct your behavior.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">JustLearning- maybe we are not going to make it, maybe there is not a bright future ahead of us. [Teary]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BUZZZZZ, wrong answer Myrta. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> You two will make it. You are both early in the recovery and you both have things to learn. So settle down and dare I say it again <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> , stop defending yourself, he is not attacking, he is healing and he needs your support AND smiles and OH! YEs, there is that pesky thing called sex. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have opened up a lot to him. YOu think I haven't, but I have. I talk to him, he talks to me, we do talk a lot. Sometimes I talk too much, and then he does not like to hear what I have to say.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah Myrta, I do not doubt you have. But here is what I sense the problem is. Look at his recent posts on this thread alone. It is as if you two don't read what the other has written. He needs you to listen to him and ACCEPT that what he is telling you are his feelings. He needs you to affirm and validate that you hear him and understand what he is saying. That is step one in communication. It is not just the words, but rather, the accepting of the words that counts.

You will get this figured out, but listen carefully to him. If say for example what you hear makes it sound like he wants to leave, tell him what you hear and ask him if that is what he meant. Then listen as he makes his points clearer, then repeat what he has said. I really think you two hear each others words, but you don't hear what they mean and you both go off based on what you THOUGHT you heard rather than what you actually heard.

Please think about this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have to try to connect with him, but he always looks at me with such resentment, with hate, I would say. It scares me to see this in his eyes. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are you sure?? I ask you this because my W has occasionally said something in response to what I have said that indicates she thinks I am angry, and even look angry. IN reality I was not, in fact I was often just confused. I have learned since coming her to question her so that she understands what I am saying.

I am wondering if what you are seeing is pain, and irritation at the pain and NOT you. You might ask him the next time you see such a look.

Myrta, this stage is normal. You are doing better than you think. I hope that I am finally getting it clearer what I mean by "open up" to him. It does not necessarily mean you spill you guts. It means you listen carefully to him, ask questions if you are confused, you express you feelings to him, and you accept and validate that he is very confused and you do your best to reassure him.

Now was what I just said what you thought I have been telling you when I encourage you to "open up"? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

It won't be until after the New Year, but I expect to be in DC again in the spring. I was just there and got together with WAT, his girl fried and JustJ for dinner. It was fun to see them again.

Now will you two kindly log off of this site, give each other a kiss, a hug, and go to bed. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

God Bless,

JL

No, he felt cautious about the dependency factor so he never did use the V.

I think there is definitly a disparity factor in your desire levels but it seems that the disparity is exacerbated by the Viagra. If the Viagra use was POJAed, you BOTH would have a say in SF. The way it seems now is that Mryta is unhappy with your "readiness" factor and that readiness factor is being enabled by a drug. Do you see how difficult this must be for Mryta, I mean how does she know what drives you to her, a chemical or true desire?

Would it be so bad if you went back to a more natural way of relating, and use the Viagra when you are both relaxed and receptive to each other? I get the impression that it all seems to be so forced right now. I think H may have been on to something about the Viagra, after reading this. It seems to have complicated things for you, rather than helped. What do you think?

Myrta & Stanley - Knock, knock. This is God. You are both fighting to be in control of your marriage. May I come in and sit down on that throne?

Two "children" having a tantrum...will you listen to yourselves....and then listen to what God has to say....or will you continue to keep your faith "private" and not an integral part of our covenant together?

Do I mean that little to each of you? Is the "best you can do" only to get a warm, fuzzy, "close" feeling when you choose to attend church ONCE a week, or is it possibly better to have Me on the throne of your lives and marriage 24/7?

Do either of you have any idea WHY I created sex or for what purpose I created sex in marriage?

Enough! Stop the Pride and bend your knees.

I'll wait around and see if you both are willing to open the door and let me come in.

WWJD. With the two of you as His bride.........

KNEWBETTER- I think viagra should be use less frequently , until we are both more comfortable with each other. I do love that he wants me all the time, but it is quiete a lot for him to be ALWAYS ready, not normal, I dont think.
He loves taking those pills now, they make him have a lot of energy,lol, too much.
There should be a compromise,yes, from both of us, to suit us,for us not to get frustrated.

Thanks

Myrta

FOREVERHERS- I dont think we want to be in control of the marriage, I really dont think that.
Its a very difficult situation we are going thru right now. We never been thru it before and we are doing as best as we can.
GOD has always been a big part of our lives, even if we only attend church once a week. Our daughters have always gone to catholic schools,they are very righteous girls, we pray at dinner,etc,etc.
I think and my husband does too, that God and religion is a very important part in our lives. But no, we are not 24-7 talking about it.

I really appreciate your input,ForeverHers. You are very nice, a bit strict, but nice.

Myrta

<small>[ November 15, 2004, 07:46 AM: Message edited by: Myrta ]</small>

Myrta, I almost had a somewhat lengthy post finished for you when my system locked up and I lost the entire thing. I don't have the time right now to recreate it, but I'll try to get back to it later. Sorry.

KB:


I think I may have developed some dependency and I will explain why:

Initially Myrta only had SF with her OM every couple of months. During this time she still paid some attention to me in the bedroom. Then the frequency of SF with OM went up to every 2-3 weeks for up to 3-4 days in a row (with each visit) and I felt a distinct change. She rejected me many times and I even had strong words with her.

After D-day Myrta wanted to give me high quality SF 24/7 every day non-stop. I was in major shock and despair. I am not sure how I was able to have SF with her after all the nasty revelations of the affair. In any event I got the Viagra because I was sure OM was also using Viagra and I wanted to look good.

On top of that Myrta kept saying that my size was wrong for her and that OM moved better despite his excess weight. This is a lot of pressure for a 54-year-old man. Do I like the pills? Yes, they make me feel like a 20 year old.

I told Myrta several weeks ago of a plan to avoid arguments regarding SF. I proposed SF once during the weekdays, perhaps on Wednesdays and then to the leave the weekend open for SF. However, she was not interested in following this plan. She is a feel player and will only do it when she feels like it. The problem is that there is no rhyme and reason to her pattern. For example we went the whole weekend with no SF. To me that is a bummer, for her is normal because she did not feel it. She even told me she likes the week much more than the weekend. For me a weekend with no SF is a waste. Maybe I think this way because I work hard all week and want relaxation on Fridays, Saturdays, and Sundays. However, I was black balled for those three days and this is a rather frequent phenomenon. She does not like SF on the weekend.

So I am more than happy to POJA, but she does not seem to be inclined.

JL:

This is more of the same. When I married Myrta she could not believe I actually wanted to marry her. When we were dating she used to ask me when I was going to dump her. If we did some necking she would always say I was going to grow tired of her because she was giving me so much of herself. OTOH, she had no problem giving ALL OF HERSELF when nothing was at stake emotionally for her. I am reminded once again of the women that have sex on the 1st date with men they don't like that much but then hold-off the sex for the men they really like.

Why do I say the above. I am convinced that Myrta believes I am plotting to leave her. I can spend all day telling her otherwise, but she still believes I want out. And that is why she cannot get close or feel safe. I know most will say it must be my fault. But, trust me on this one, I think she simply cannot believe I am willing to stay married to her after she fully replaced me with another man for two years. In her mind the assault was so egregious that she cannot understand how anyone could forgive such an act.

So as usual------- we are not moving!

JUST LEARNING- I have so many doubts <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> . Are you sure he is going to be able to re-grow that "amputated leg"? It seems impossible to me at this time. I wish he had shown me more of this side before, that he was leaning on me emotionally. He seemed to be so "detached" of emotions before. He did not show too much what he was feeling, not even with our children. As a matter of fact,ouryoungest(12)is kind of detached from him. I know that hurts him, and I have tried talking with her, but he did not make a connection when she was younger and now is difficult, she is a pre-teen and has her own issues to deal with.
My husband is confused,but I am confused too. We really dont know how to act with each other anymore. He tells me a lot, that is all my fault. That I damage our marriage big time. How do you think that makes me feel? I feel like crap, thats how I feel. I know I did something so horrible, but I want to rebuild our marriage, our trust,our love. I want the affair to be just a bad memory, like a nightmare that never happened. Can that be attained? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
Last night he stayed posting here longer than usual. I was already in bed,not asleep, cause I was too tense. But we could not "kiss and make-up" But towards morning, I snuggle up to him and it was nice <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> .
I do fear the changes, they terrify me. I see everything so uncertain, so fragile. I fear that the changes will be temporary, and then we will fall into something completely different. Like nothing is permanent in how we are right now.
JustLearning , I appreciate you posting to us. You are really good and wise in your advice.
I am looking forward to meeting you some day <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Thank YOu

MYRTA

Stanley, when I suggested POJAing the Viagra, I didn't mean to *schedule* SF but to agree on the use of the Viagra. I was pegging off your previous statement that you are ready for SF 24/7. I didn't know at the time that you were using Viagra. BTW, I need to apologize to you for sharing that joke about OM and Viagra. I shouldn't have and I hope I didn't hurt your feelings by proxy.

24/7 was not the norm preA for you and Myrta and it certainly is not the norm statistically in your age group. Viagra is a fun drug no kidding, but the downside is that it seems to now have created an unbalance in SF for you and Myrta. Just because you CAN go 24/7, doesn't mean you SHOULD. There is so much more to SF than having a hard p*n*s true?

There is a pretty interesting site that I think you both might enjoy checking out, and may give you some of the answers you need regarding SF. The Marriage Bed It is a Christian site but definitely not uptight. I seem to recall a number of threads about Viagra and how it impacts the marriage.

To me the whole SF issue with the two of you is not so much a A issue but simply a marital one. It is not entirely about being a BS or being a WS. Introducing a drug into your sex lives is going to create a whole new dynamic and the bottom line is that there are some adjustments to be made. This is where POJA comes in.

In any other situation, no one with any common sense would be telling a woman that she HAS to have SF with her husband when she is not emotionally ready, especially at the rate at which you would like Stanley or given any negative interreactions the two of you may have had during the day. Because we focus heavily on recovery after an A on this site, it can be hard to separate normal marital issues from A issues. In reality, what you are asking of Myrta, (which I understood from her previous statements to be SF almost every night) is unrealistic even if you didn't factor in the A.

By POJAing when you take Viagra with Myrya this gives her more say in your sex life. If she feels that she *owes* you SF at any given time you want because 1. she had an affair 2. you popped the Viagra already so the pressure is on not to *waste* it or possibly 3. she has to prove to you that you are better than OM...(You are, duh) how can you expect her to feel positively about having SF???

SF isn't supposed to be a pressure cooker situation, it's supposed to fun and rewarding, a time of closeness and bonding and renewal. It has to be REAL Stanley...it is a give and take between husband and wife. Viagra is a wonderful drug if used properly but its missuse will cause more problems if you are not careful.

I hope I explained this clearly enough, H had some imput on this last night and I hope I listened to him carefully enough to not be entirely discounting the male mindset about "reclaiming" and all that. I just see it as an normal (re)action aggravated by the Viagra use that is not under control and not working for BOTH of you at this time. Check out that site when you have time...it may be helpful for you two. KB

Myrta,

Did you read what your H just posted. How he feels that you have not fully connected with him because you have always feared he would leave you? Did you read that? What did you think of what he said? Is there some truth to it?

For the sake of discussion let's say there is an element of truth to this. Now let me ask you something. IF I could magically change the world and I changed it so your H loved you deeply and would never leave you UNLESS you drove him off, what would you do with that situation?

1. Would you use it to your advantage and do what you wanted without worrying about him leaving?

2. Would you then feel safe to relax and enjoy life with him?

3. Would you feel a terrible weight has been lifted from your shoulders?

4. Would you feel the removal of the weight and feel like you could love him wholeheartedly?

5. Or is this something you already know?

What would you feel if I could change the world for you? I ask you these things Myrta because before you can do anything else you need to understand who you are, what you want, what you need, what you fear, and where you want to be.

If you come to that point, there is a possibility of your world changing into something far better and different than what it has been with respect to your marriage.

I am thinking that in someways Stanley has been FORCED to look at things differently. He has been forced to evaluate what is important to him, and he has been forced by the pain of this to realize how dependent he is on you in someways. That can be scary, but...it is forcing him to blindly trust you. To step out into the unknown and TRUST that you will protect him. I know the concept of you protecting him seems odd to you, but you have and you do.

Further, you will notice that he is having some problems with this trust <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> . Just like someone else I know <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> (that would be you).

Myrta, growth is not easy and it is not pain free, but it is almost always good. Your life will never be what it was. It will be better or it will be worse. That depends on what you and Stanley decide to make of your lives.

I think what Stanley wants is for you to TRUST him and make a step out into the unknown toward him, because you do TRUST him. I know it is scary to you, but I have to ask you this, hasn't he shown in almost 30 years that he can be trusted to help you?

Please think about this. It is time to grow and growth is painful and scary, but it is often a great thing. Go for it Myrta, I think you will be surprised at the love in your H's heart if you will finally TRUST him and YOURSELF.

God Bless,

JL

* oops ! *

<small>[ November 15, 2004, 02:31 PM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

JUSTLEARNING-Yes, he might be right on thinking that I haven't fully connected with him, but I think the same from his side.
If you were to have the magic wand in your hand and make me believe that he will never leave me.
1. An enormous weight would be lifted from my
shoulders.
2. I could easily relax and give myself comple-
tely to him.
3. I will use it to OUR advantage, not only mine.

The problem that I have is, that because I dont trust him 100%, I feel I have to be with my guard up. I feel that if I give in completely, then he will give me the punch and leave me and tell me
"you thought I was going to stay with you?" Thats how I feel.
Before the affair I felt undeserving of a man like him. After the affair its worst!
I am NOTHING by him now. I was the one that ERR, I was the one that damage the marriage.
Do you see my side too? I fear everything now.
I feel like my world is crumbling before my eyes.

Thank you.

MYRTA