KIWI- In this other site, he does not talk to WWs, he talks to OW-OMS!!! And what they say depresses him very much. He promised he is not going to go anymore. I hope so!!!

Thank you Jen

Myrta

OK, Myrta asked me if I was going to reply. She likes to use the board a communication tool and seems to express some things in here that she cannot do in person when we talk. Of course, I am quite happy to talk no matter the circumstances.

Let me talk about a few issues (for Myrta)

Yes, I am somewhat depressed and I have a lot of ups and downs. I know I am still depressed because I have not regained interest in my hobbies. Over the last two days I woke up early and that is a typical sign. However, the depression is way better than at the beginning.

I believe I seek SF because it gives me a high that lasts about 24-36 hours and I feel quite well during that period. I think lots of non-sexual affection also helps. I am not a needy insecure clingy guy; this will pass.

It is NOT MY INTENTION to cause Myrta to feel remorseful when I bring a subject that is causing a little ache in my heart. On the contrary, I want her to be strong, happy, and not depressed. If I mention something I am simply seeking comfort and reassurance. Encouraging supporting statements from Myrta do wonders for me. However, sometimes she feels I am attacking her and she avoids the subject or walks away. I don’t have anyone else top talk to. Like JL says, only Myrta has the key.

As for dependency on Viagra, et al:

Immediately after D-day I noted a drop off in performance. However, I believe this is something that was probably developing about 3-4 months before D-day. After all I am 54 years old and I can tell I don’t have the same action I had when I was younger. So I turned to these drugs after D-day and a new world was opened. I have not felt like this in a long time. I really enjoyed the effect---- it is like a roaring engine in a dragster getting ready for a race. In any event Myrta is right, perhaps I was becoming dependent on this and I have given them up. I will only use that on certain occasions and see how it goes. However, this has also contributed to my depression. It is not fun getting old and having to deal with these issues as well as two grown kids having marital problems of their own.

As for the OW/OM site:

This was a bad idea. Lots of bad triggers in there. These folks have a completely different viewpoint.

Myrta,

You said something else I thought I would comment on that may help you with this. You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I will really try to make ammends to this. Inmediatly when those kinds of things happen, I should force myself into his position, and see what will be my reaction, what will hurt me or not. I am trying JL, I really am!!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Note the part in bold. What I and others are trying to tell you is that your goal is NOT to make amends. Here is why I say that. In my lifetime the people I have met who seem to be the happiest are people who give to others, their family, church, whatever. They don't really worry too much about what they get back.

The most unhappy people I have met have what I call "accounting relationships". Everything must balance. If he will do this I will do that, if she will do this then I will do... There is a constant balancing and constant vigilance to make sure they get what they are OWED or DUE.

I am not saying you are like this, but you see what would help your marriage more is probably a simple "Sorry about how I acted the other day, I understand my response and I will do better." That is all he needs... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> well all he needs coupled with a giving spirit and heart.

Myrta I know it is in you, I am sure you are that way to many people, but to your H lately surely during the A and now that you are trying to protect yourself you are not as much.

Here is where the trust and "opening" up come. If you can trust Stanley to love you (and he does), then you can trust that while each action, each act of kindness may not be reciprocated exactly as you would like, on the whole he is going to do his best to love you and care for you, and treat you well. When you realize this, your first response will not be to defend but to open your arms and help. That is what Stanley means by "opening" up. He knows the woman you are and he KNOWS within your heart is a lot of love and care and what he needs to is see what he KNOWS is there.

Are you starting to see why I was hammering on you so hard to begin with. It was eveident to even a stranger on the "left coast", that within your heart was what your H sought. You were just defending it behind walls so ferociously that you would not let it out. The true irony was that you felt we saw you as bad, when the reality was that the good in you was evident.

I want you to trust yourself enough to realize that if you let the kindness and love within you out, that it will be enough for Stanley. He will rejoice in it and you will NOT have to worry about him EVER leaving you. You have no idea the power you have, if you will simply trust yourself enough to let Stanley see the love and care.

Myrta, I have always loved the word "grace". It carries such deep, peaceful, and yet powerful connotations in my mind. I am asking you to act with GRACE toward Stanley and you will see the healing really begin. You will see that OLD <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> 54 year old respond like a puppy. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

You see if you do this, it will be the final proof that you have changed and that he CAN trust you and would be a fool to lose you. Look in your heart Myrta the answers are really there.

God Bless,

JL

JUSTLEARNING-You are right about those types of relationships that everything has to be balance. Usually they are not happy,for sure. You do this, I do this!!
I am not trying to do that in my relationship with my husband. I just want to make it up to him, for everything,actually. He has always being so good to me, hehas love me all his life. He has never been unfaithful, and how do I pay him? By having a horrific affair, thats how.
JL. I want to be the best wife in the world. I admitt its kind of hard to be that way right now. It seems like I am not equipped to do it yet. I feel inadecuate sometimes when I do things for him.
He really does not have to reciprocrate anything to me, because his whole life with me, he has given me sooooooooooooo much. Right now, our marriage its very unbalance,and I want to try to make it more balance. But I know its going to take me some time to do just that.
He promised that he is not going to go anymore to that other site of OMs and OWs. It was causing him a lot of pain to hear what they have to say.

Thank you so much JL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

MYRTA

JL:

Myrta is very selfless. She never expects anything in return.

She is not talkative and tends to inserts silence in conversation and one ends up trying to pry words out of her mouth. This is all part of her defense, but I hope it will get better.

I have concerns that I express to her on a regular basis. She does not want to hear them, but there is not much I can do. My daily concerns are:

1. I know sooner or later OM will attempt to communicate. Therefore I ask her daily about this. She is very annoyed with this and says OM will never call because he is very hurt. However, I know at some point (tomorrow or in a year) there will be an attempt to communicate.
2. Is there any withdrawal? She says there in non--- ZERO! Nevertheless I feel I must ask her periodically.

Other than that there is really not much talk about A.

OTHER ISSUES

I feel she is feeling shame and I don’t like it. When she says “before I was too little for him, now I am nothing” I feel crushed because in essence we are back to square one and this was the motto that was communicated to the OM to develop the affair. She needs to understand she is the main pillar of the household!

Ok you Two,

Think about this. There is this really annoying commercial where someone says something really tacky to someone they don't know and the person reacts to that comment. The initiator of this mess stands there dumbfounded because they have put their foot in their mouth and finally says...Thank you! Where upon the whole situation changes.

I hate that ad, but I like one part of the message. "Thank you" is a very very powerful thing. People often search for something appropriate to show their love, gratitude, forgiveness and they will go to great lengths to do this, when a simple "thank you" will suffice.

The key however is the "thank you" needs to be accepted and appreciated by the recipient.

You two need to step back and make a list of all of things you need to say "thank you" to the other for and start doing it. AND when one of you hears a "thank you" from the other, a simple but heartfelt "your welcome" is needed.

You two are MAKING THIS TOO HARD. You love each other right? YOu have lived as man and wife for 30 years right? You have children and memories and good times and bad times, but mostly you have each other. Don't you think it is time to look at one another and say "thank you" and start to realy help one another? I do.

Stanley I understand your concern about OM contacting Myrta, I think you are right he will try again. He did not value your marriage before why should he now. However, I think you also need to realize that Myrta is growing and changing this stuff tends to do that to people. You need to address the issue that if there is contact she will do one of two things: tell you about it or she will lie to you by omission. You cannot control that, but you can tip the scales toward honesty by loving her and helping her through this. And "thank you's" do help.

Myrta, you understand his situation right? You want him happy right? You want to love him right? Well you need to properly evaluate your situation. You are NOT below Stanley. You are HIS choice as a mate for life and you still are. He wants you by his side not two steps behind in a subservient position. How do I know this? He is saying this.

Further, he is not interested in some dumb bimbo, he is interested in you and he feels you are special. Accept that and say "thank you" to him. Acknowledge what he is saying and you will find that he will trust you more. And acknowledgements don't mean you have to fall on your sword, but often just take a "thank you".

Folks this is not rocket science. As Pep likes to phrase it...it is simply agreeing to "play nice". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> She is right you know.

So step back and both of you realize this is really pretty simple, love each other, by nice to each other, and with time the wounds will heal and the marriage will prosper. And a good start is telling your spouse "thank you" and accepting that "thank you".

Please think about this abit.

God Bless,

JL

There is a book out by Dr. Laura titled The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands. Maybe that book has some ideas you can use.

<small>[ November 19, 2004, 01:32 PM: Message edited by: RAG ]</small>

JL:

Thanks for your kind words. Sometimes I feel the same way. Why does it have to be so difficult?

Immediately after D-day my wife said she would do anything to make the marriage work and she did------------ She was incredible. Then things became more complicated and we started with the ups and downs and mood changes and the inability to really communicate. I guess she was in her fog and I was in mine. This stuff will put you in your own special fog. In fact I know I am not normal yet. In any event we are now back on track and the days when Myrta thought MB was useless are gone.

I think we both find it hard and awkward. We don’t know how to act normal! I long for normality and the carefree days when I had no concerns of this kind. Sure, the relationship was very mature with no urgency. It was a very relaxed love (at least from my part), which perhaps was interpreted as boredom or being taken for granted. That was not the case---- we were simply missing some intensity and I sort of gave up on it because Myrta had given up. However, I was enthralled by her newfound calmness----- she had change and I should have paid more attention.

RAG:

My wife does a lot of the things in Dr, Laura’s book. She is a gem!

Stanley - Mission Impossible Assignment:

Should you choose to accept the assignment it will help with:

I think we both find it hard and awkward. We don’t know how to act normal! I long for normality and the carefree days when I had no concerns of this kind.

NO MB and NO relationship talk for the entire weekend. Monday, you can start again if you like.

But for the weekend....just the two of you and you both promise to not get triggered, not get upset, not read the "wrong" into any statement....you just do whatever you feel like doing with each other AS IF you are enjoying the company of lifelong friend and just being together. No pressure, just "go with the flow" in all circumstances.

Can you choose to "lock it away" for two days? Not forever, not a month.....just 48 hours?

Try it, you might like it.

And while you're at it, you could set aside a couple of hours on Sunday just to be alone together in a crowd at God's house....He loves company!

God bless.

RAG- We love Dr.Laura Schlesinger. My daughter gave that same book to my son's wife!! I have always tried to "feed" my husband properly, just now, it seems like I dont know how to!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

FOREVERHERS- Thats was very good recommendation you are giving us, thank you. I am going to try to do just that, just concentrate on us as a couple that is just enjoying each others company.
I really appreciate your post,its very pretty! I really dont like to miss church on Sunday's. Look forward to it, as a matter of fact. I am sure he will come with me this coming sunday.
Forever--Thank you so much!


Thank you both!!

MYRTA

<small>[ November 19, 2004, 09:55 PM: Message edited by: Myrta ]</small>

UPDATE

As per Dr. Laura's book I participated in SF in a Friday!

In turn I have deposited many LUs by giving massages to her hair and back.

So far so good-------- however we have some minor issues.

1) It turns out OM has an AOL profile. This is something available to the public and can be accessed by simply clicking on view members profile and entering the OM's AOL screen name. I saw the profile and it is basically a love letter to Myrta. The thing is----- Myrta checks the profile once in a while. Myrta claims she wants to see when OM is going to remove the love letter. I think this affects the rate of withdrawal dissipation; Myrta thinks otherwise.

2) One of my daughters got into the habit of exchanging emails with OM because she thinks OM is nothing more than Myrta's childhood friend. My daughter went to dinner with OM and Myrta during a trip back home. My daughter thinks OM is a nice guy. Recently my daughter and OM exchanged emails. If my daughter decides to check the AOL profile of the OM we could have discovery.

I am worried!

<small>[ November 20, 2004, 06:22 PM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

JUSTLEARNING--Thank you for your post. All your posts make so much sense all the time <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> .Thank you again.
I do understand the power of a "thank you" to your spouse when he or she does something nice.I
do love it, when people in my family,my husband and kids thank me for what I do for them. They dont have to do it all the time, but once in a while is nice to hear you are appreciated for the little things I do for them.
This weekend has been pretty peaceful between Stanley and I. We went to church today, it was nice and special, since we were chosen to bring the "gifts"to the altar. Church does wonders for our spirits especially when we go as a family.
The last post of myhusband, about me checking the profile of the OM.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> . I really dont do it out of love for him, I am really curious about when its going to dissapear,thats all, really <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> . You think is really wrong of my part to do it?
JL...One of our daughters has been living out of our home for one year, she wanted to experience
living on her own, well,turns out, she did not like the experience and she is moving back <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> . I was thinking, since she is a grown woman, with a good salary, to start charging her like 100-150 months. I know she is going to behave like a diva when she moves back, and I am going to be doing everything for her,like before. Do you think thats a bad idea to do so? I know she is going to be highly offended by the proposition. My husband thinks its good..
When I was very young I used to work part-time, and I would give my mom money, even though I was a teenager <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> . At the time I thought nothing of it, but now, when I look back, that was not right, I was a little girl.
Your oppinion would be greatly appreciated as usual, since you are the greatest!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Thank you JLearning!

MYRTA

JUSTLEARNING-

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Did you see my last post?

Take care!

Myrta <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Myrta,

So you and Stanley have one of those boomerrang kids huh? Throw them out and they come right back. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I truely don't know the answer to your question. I think if they are out of school, earning a living, and want to be on their own, then they should not be home. IF they are home and they expect to be fed,laundered, and otherwise taken care of (housing is not cheap) it doesn't hurt them to pay for it.

It is not a matter of you and Stanley not being able to afford them, it is a matter of what you are teaching them about being responsible adults.

Your Daughter is going to have to figure out how to live on her own sometime and hopefully she will do it before she meets a guy. I firmly believe that people that have been on their own have an advantage with respect to having a good marriage. Why? well they appreciate the company, the help and they know how to do things themselves.

As for advice for you and STanley, well I don't really have any. She is your daughter and you know her, and you know what she needs to learn, and you know what she doesn't need to learn. I always go for learning as you can tell. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

It is your call.

Personally I try to be so miserable and demanding around the house that my kids WANT to leave. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> OF course I am not sure I am succeeding. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Seriously, the problem with adult children is if you reared them properly they are a joy to be around aren't they? So telling them to move out is hard. It seems to me the goal of all of this is to rear our kids to be people we like, and enjoy being around, if we succeed then these decisions are hard.

So guess what? I am skating on offering you advice on what to do. See I am smart enough to know that I am not smart enough. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> That is why I am just learning.

I have faith in you and Stanley to make the correct decision.

God Bless,

JL

JUSTLEARNING-LOL. BOOMERANG kids? I have never heard that before <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> But I guess she is one of those. Our kids never want to leave, even our oldest girl, already with a baby (yeah, we are grandparents <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) loves to stay here like she is a girl still.
But yes, I think the concept of paying should be enforce here. She is already 24 years old@!
JUSTLEARNING- My husband has been rather down,depressed lately,because of that site of OWs=OMs. He promised me that he would never go again, but he did. It makes him so so sad to read their thoughts there. He was pretending to be a OW!!!
He has been very insecure these last couple of days.

Myrta

Myrta,

Part of the rollercoaster. You can help him and yourself by recalling the things he has done and does do that you appreciate and THANK HIM. An I love you would be good, but oddly I think he needs more.

I am guessing but what you are seeing is not about you as much as it is about him and his sense of self-worth. Here is where you can help him but just being with him, smiling, holding his hand, just reaching out to him in general terms.

I know you and Stanley got together pretty young, but have you ever watched guys interact with one another? I mean close friends. They don't necessarily talk much, or do much, but they are "there" physically. Perhaps they go fish, or play golf or sit and watch a football game. The act of doing this and not even talking is bonding for us guys.

I am thinking you need to step back and realize that Stanley has always needed you very much but it was not the obvious need. More like us guys bonding with friends but with the added advantage that you are a "girl" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . I am thinking what he needs is just you there with him, simple things that let him know you care and you value him as a friend, an H, and yes a lover, but right now the friend part may be more important than you realize.

So if I am guessing right he does not need "great acts" of contrition, or "I'm sorries", he just needs you there as his friend. He needs to be built up a bit. This is about him Myrta, that is my guess. So step up put your arm around him and just give him a hug every now and then and let him know you value him.

This too shall pass.

God Bless,

JL

JUSTLEARNING-Yes, thank you, like you say are very important part of a relationship. Its good to hear that from both parts. I am trying to do that with him.
You know what I have been doing the last couple of days? Well, I have been sending him little notes to his e-mail. He calls me when he gets them, and he thanks me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . He likes those little notes very much.
He also likes cuddling as much as I do now. So thats good too.
I do hope his snooping in that other site is over and done with!!! That was a very bad idea for him to go there. It got him really low in spirits.
Another thread here, of a woman that her husband just discovered lots of affairs, has him very affected. You write to them a lot,Mr.and Mrs.G. He asked me if I had other affairs <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> . That really offended me greatly. I could hardly handle having one, if I had multiple ones I would be crazy!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
Thank you so much for all your help,JL.

MYRTA

Ah! Myrta,

What you are finding out is that your H is more sensitive than you realized. It is a good thing really, but it makes your interactions with him more complicated doesn't it?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Gone are the days of "just feed him, go to bed with him and life is good" aren't they?

Ah! you women just don't know how good you had it when us guys were not sensitized and in touch with our emotions. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Myrta, don't be offended by his question. It is a natural question and your response should have been a smile and a "once was more than enough." That will end that.

The idea here is to learn to look beyond the obvious. He asked because he was bothered and worried, NOT because he wanted to offend you. Take these things in the spirit of recovery and discovery. He has realized he needs to know more about you. So he asks now instead of assuming as he did before. It was those assumptions there were HIS undoing don't you know?

You are doing fine Myrta and so is Stanley, you are only 6 months out, if that. Things will continue to settle down for both of you.

God Bless,

JL

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> JUST LEARNING--

You are sooooo right!!! It is more complicated the interaction with him now. Its more time consuming,more energy involved, but I LIKE IT!!!
HE really has become so much more sensitive, or maybe like you said, he has always being that way, but I was too blind to see it.
About him asking the question of other affairs, I got angry, I guess I am still with some defenses up <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> . But just now, he read your post, and he agrees with you. He just needs to ask up front whatever doubt is in his mind.
I guess we are both re-knowing each other.

We will see what new surprise tomorrow brings! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Again, thank you, JL. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

MYRTA

JUST LEARNING- Things are not going well. My husband is very negative and sees nothing good in his future with me. Just now I got an e-mail from him from work saying he did not sleep and he thinks he is never going to be happy again with me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
It seems that our marriage is going downhill, he really does not want to work this out, JL>
He feels sorry for himself, thats the problem here.
What can we do??

Myrta