KB:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> One thing to remember is that you CAN be in control of your thoughts, rather than your thoughts being in control of you. Every WS has to go through the process of retraining their minds and it really isn't any different for the BS</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I tried that early on. I would assume the A was some sort of fantasy and not real and try to forget the painful side. I must say it worked OK, but it was a little bizarre.

I also pretend the A is no big deal and not my fault at all. I tell myself I am 54 and should not be concerned since the early years were wonderful.

I also try to make the whole thing a joke and try to laugh at it. Not sure that goes well with Myrta since I ridiculed OM's anatomy when I did this.

In summary, these things tend to work, but the effect seems to go away after a while and I get the impression I am simply delaying the inevitable---- which is accepting this at the puritanical level of my soul.

Accepting has been hard than average because I was a virgin and Myrta was my 1st and only one. That special bond among us is broken. In fact, once Myrta told me she would feel better about herself if I had an affair when I was younger. I guess her remorse is worse because I have been faithful and never had another woman.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and then I think 'ima get me some tonight' and then tonight comes an poof - nothing.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hear you--- it is brutal!

BTW, OM is no competition, but at some level one tends to feel as 2nd choice; it is inevitable.

Believer:

I don't want to take ADs. They are great drugs and they truly help depression. However, I am a little chicken about taking them.

Stanley -

What is it with men and taking AD's? I can't figure it out. A good one works without side effects and KABOOM - you feel great.

That is not to say there is still lots of hard work to do, but you feel up to doing what you need to do. In fact you WANT to do things.

I spent months sitting around staring and crying. What a waste. Finally I went to the doc and got some. What a difference!

But anyway, your feelings are normal. I don't think people realize what a HUGE shock infidelity is. It makes you question everything about yourself, your spouse, your relationship and your life.

You won't believe it now, but someday you will feel much better again. It is obvious that Myrta is very much in love with you, and wants only you.

She does need to let her relatives know that she would rather not have OM around them at all. No details need to be given. If he shows up to things, you and Myrta need to leave. (Hope you are still reading Myrta, you can help your husband here.)

PS - Myrta - The OM is poison to your marriage. Please don't tell us how he could support you, or anything else about him. He has been disrespectful to you, your husband, your marriage, your children, your God, and now your family.

Also good call on AW's "sickness"! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

So you tried controlling your A thoughts early on and no luck. Well, it's HARD and you have to PRACTICE. It's sort of like the mind gym. Of course you don't want to go to the real gym so I can see your hesitation, but you must do it or you are going to singlehandledly sink your own recovery.

Mryta sounds completely stressed, no kidding. Recovery is hard work, Stanley but you CAN do this. You have to WANT to however and that is where control over your thoughts comes in. You are what you think, Stanley. Police those thoughts, you are the only one who can. Mryta can't do it for you and you can only continue this line for so long.

You would probably not be too surprised to know that I put my foot down at about 6 or 7 months with my H...recovery efforts that are one sided is not recovery at all. In his case, too much MB was causing him to struggle with thoughts and we had to POJA his time here.

There was also a point where I'd had enough of his bringing the A up willy nilly, it was like living in a war zone where I had no idea when the next torpedo was coming in. POJA once again, scheduled A talks. You have got to lighten Myrta's burden here Stanley. You have to do something because what's going on now just isn't working. KB

Stanley,

You might want to reconsider the AD's for a little while anyway. I also think you need to stop and reflect on some things (I know it's not like you haven't been thinking about this).

Have you read by Myrta posted to you? Read it again and...BELIEVE IT. I know you don't trust her but you only have two choices really. One is to distrust everything which leads no where or decide to trust her again, which can lead to rebuilding your marriage. "But" you say, "she has lied to me before and betrayed me". Yup, she has.

However, she is also still there and given that and the fact that you are NOT going anywhere, you might as well trust her UNTIL she proves she cannot be trusted again. THEN I think you will have no problem knowing what to do, will you? So if you trust and she doesn't fail you, you will be happier and the marriage will be rebuilt. IF you trust and she fails you, then the marriage will be over right? So either way you "win" in the sense that your path is straight forward.

Now that we have that settled. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Let's look at how you feel. Actually, you seem to be pretty normal to me with your doubts about yourself and your marriage and her love for you. You are hurt because of the two year affair and the emails you read. But Stanley the emails were part of the fantasy, in fact I would bet they were the BEST part of the fantasy. The reality was and is that Myrta did not leave and I think the reality was and is that she had no plans to leave you.

Yes, money might be one reason, but I also think she knew in her heart who the right man for her way and it was you. Are you second choice? I don't think so. Were you second in her mind and feelings for several years? Yes, you were and I don't think Myrta can deny that as much as she would like to. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> That is the reality.

So let me ask you Dr. Phil's question: "How's that workin fer ya?" Are you happy now? Are the feelings you have making you feel better? Is this how you want to live your life?

I'm thinking the answers are no. So let's think for a second about a plan to get some of this sorted out. Here is what I would recommend...get your life back.

That means:

1. Get back into your recreational activities.

2. Take some new ones that perhaps Myrta can join in with you on.

3. Give Myrta a chance to rebuild this marriage and in my mind this requires several things.
a) Time and patience (you have heard this before right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )
b) A plan for you both to address what you need in your marriage.
c) Some consideration on both of your parts on what makes you happy and what you both enjoy. Yes, sex is on the table for negotiation. But, not just sex, SEX with her enthusiastic about it and you as well.
d) Perhaps a vacation together so that you two can just "be" with no pressure to "do".
e) YOU admitting that you still love this woman although she has hurt you deeply. With that comes "forgiveness" which is giving up the right to hurt someone that has hurt you.
f) You reengaging in life again Stanley.

Now all of this sounds good doesn't it? But, you are saying "that fool doesn't understand I am hurt and I just don't have any gooooo right now."

You would be right I don't understand your hurt because I am not you. You would be wrong I do understand that "no gooo" that comes with depression, it is paralyzing. You need to address it, with diet, exercise (I recommend weightlifting, and I mean heavy weights to challenge your muscles, a good few rounds with a punching bag would not hurt either.), and recreation (do things you two enjoy). Those things will address your depression and if it does not go see a Doc (ya, I know the irony of that statement) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

But, Stanley only you can rebuild your life. Myrta must assist you, and love you, and yes change how she has interacted with you in the past to accomodate the fact that you are NOT LAID BACK any longer, but need active assurances from her. But, Stanley one of the most effective things I have seen is for you to proceed as most affairs do. You need to love her, show her care, be attentive, and yes be on your best behavior showing her your best side, and I do believe that you will begin to see very positive affects from this.

But, please remember this takes T&P on your part as well as her's.

I hope something I have said is of help.

God Bless,

JL

KB:

I used those methods extensively shortly after D-day and they eased the pain quite a bit. All the methods we used trivialized the event to a great extent. I think Myrta also wanted to do that because it also eased her concerns about the affair. I even used the affair as a fantasy tool in the bedroom since we had used similar fantasies in the past.

Sometimes I try to see everything as a huge positive in that it has increased my interest in sex greatly. However, retrospectively my interest only went down during the last few months of the affair when she pulled away from me.

I will try to use those methods again and see how it goes this time around.

Believer:

OM had met Myrta's brother 25 years ago once. Then all of a sudden OM called Myrta's brother and they got together for lunch. OM stopped by the house of my mother in law to bring a present for Myrta's birthday. He has called my mother in law to check up on her because she is elderly. OM presents himself as an old classmate who is very friendly and so nice to everybody. Myrta's mom loves him, he is becoming a friend of the family.

I suspect OM wants Myrta to break NC and call him.

Perhaps OM wants to out Myrta

Perhaps OM hopes he may run into Myrta when she goes and visits her mother.

OM has befriended one of my daughter's through email and IM.

OM's AOL profile is a love letter to Myrta. This is a public document that can be seem by simply clicking view member's profile while on AOL.

One time OM showed up suddenly in our city to see Myrta. I sometimes wonder if OM has been back to watch us.

I know nothing about the character of this person, but I suspect he is not an honorable person. What he is doing right now is disgusting. If OM ever finds out that Myrta and I don't want this affair to be public he could try extortion----- who knows.

Stanley - Yes you do know about OM's character. He is not an honorable man.

I hope that Myrta will tell her family that he needs to be out of the picture. That is the least she can do. She needs to realize that you do not see OM the same way she does. (GAG)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Have you read by Myrta posted to you? Read it again and...BELIEVE IT. I know you don't trust her but you only have two choices really. One is to distrust everything which leads no where or decide to trust her again, which can lead to rebuilding your marriage. "But" you say, "she has lied to me before and betrayed me". Yup, she has.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I tend to believe it. But, I read similar words directed at someone else. You see-------- it is not that easy. Words are very cheap, I guess. It is amazing what lack of trust will do to a person. One hears and wonders----"Is this the real deal?"


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">you might as well trust her UNTIL she proves she cannot be trusted again. THEN I think you will have no problem knowing what to do, will you? So if you trust and she doesn't fail you, you will be happier and the marriage will be rebuilt. IF you trust and she fails you, then the marriage will be over right? So either way you "win" in the sense that your path is straight forward.
Now that we have that settled.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow! JL, that makes a lot of sense. At this point i have nothing to lose. If she fails then I know------------ but in the end I will know whether I trust her or not. In medicine they call that a pearl!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Let's look at how you feel. Actually, you seem to be pretty normal to me with your doubts about yourself and your marriage and her love for you. You are hurt because of the two year affair and the emails you read. But Stanley the emails were part of the fantasy, in fact I would bet they were the BEST part of the fantasy. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I tend to believe the best part was the SF.


In any event, recently i have been contemplating a return to the gym. Thanks for the advice, as usual it was on the mark!

BELIEVER- I know the OM is poison to mymarriage. I was just saying that, to show that he also has means of supporting a wife . since my husband was saying that I stay with him for financial reasons.
The OM was not only poison to my marriage, it seems like it was the death of my marriage!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

KNEWBETTER-I am doing my part ,I think with Stanley. Thats why I get so frustrated and stressed out, because I think I am doing everything for our recovery but yet he looks and expresses such sadness that its disheartening to me. I cannot believe how hard is to recover a marriage in crisis!! My life before was a bed of roses <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> and it seems that I lost it all.

Stanley feels that what he is doing is beyond him. We are spanish,and he was raised to believe that infidelity was never to be forgiven. So, its a huge effort for him to accept what I did. Thats why he is struggling so much, because I dont think he is going to be able to really forgive me. Even though he repeats here over and over again that he has.

Hehas told me many times, that I tainted ,damage our marriage. He points the finger at me, when we have fights. Those words stay in me for a long,long time, and when I am getting confident again with him, he starts sulking again!!

Thank you so much Believer and Knewbetter!!

MYRTA

BELIEVER- What can I tell my family about the OM? To dissuade them from his "friendliness"?
My family will be so dissapointed at me if they knew what I did!! <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> They will hate me as much as Stanley!!

Stanley,

Ask here what the best part was. I am thinking it was the emails and the build up, sort of like a good "Bodice Ripper" that women seem to love. The sex may have been good, but I am betting the emails were the best and made the sex good as well.

The point is that the "fantasy" was the best part. You can ask her and see.

As for the rest, go for it and enjoy. I think you will recover this.

I would like to see what Myrta says about your listing of the behavior of the OM with her family. I agree this is something that could be very hurtful to you and your marriage, especially contact with your daughter.

If Myrta doesn't see the harm in this, I do think she is still in withdrawal. If things are as you listed these are NOT accidental contacts. Now they may be him trying to "make up" for what he did, but being a guy I seriously doubt it, and ANY contact with my D would be bad news. I realize that Myrta doesn't see it that way, but here is a point that she needs to see your perspective on this.

I realize she does NOT want to disclose any of this to anyone else, but if she is not careful disclosure may come in an uncontroled fashion and hurt a lot of people. In this regard if she agrees he should NOT be contacting her family and your D, then YOU can certainly contact him and appraise him of this fact, but it must be with a POJA with Myrta. I understand she is hoping it will go away, but if contact continues then it is likely it will not only NOT go away it may become worse.

This is definitely a subject you both need to talk about and LISTEN TO ONE ANOTHER about.

God Bless,

JL

Myrta -

You don't owe your family any explanation. You need to make your husband feel safe. I would tell my family that I am uncomfortable with their relationship with OM. If they ask why, just repeat that you are not comfortable.

If OM is invited to any family things, you need to abstain. If you meet him accidentally, you need to leave.

It is very hard to explain how hurtful contact of any kind is. I let my WH know that I just don't care to see OW drive by my house anymore. He argued and argued, but FINALLY moved to another town. Now I feel much better.

JUST LEARNING!!! Of course I can see how damaging the OM visiting my family is. That could be lethal!!! What can I tell my parents,my brother about the OM? Or to my daughter? This could be horrible, yes.
He was a high school teacher and my brother gave a talk to his class, like 20 years ago. MY mom told me that the OM called her last week and then the OM and my brother went for lunch and he hired my nephew for some computer work in his business!! So, its getting rather complicated now. My brother and him could start talking ,become fast friends, who knows!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
I am really very tense about all this!!

Thank you so much JL, for that excellent advice you gave my husband. It makes so much sense!!
Thank you so,somuch, heis going to follow thru,he says!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

MYRTA

Well, update here! My husband had another bad night, tossing and turning,cold sweats,etc.
Got up with a "sour mood", avoids my contact, but he says everything is fine with him <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> . He tell me not to worry, but I see the distressed look in his face.
Talking about seeing nothing good ahead of me or us!! With his attitude, I dont think there is.
I am giving him all my attention and love, trying to make him as comfortable and happy as possible, but it is not working!!!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

MYRTA

Myrta - It's gonna take some more time. There will be bad days and good days. Can the two of you get away for a couple of days?

BELIEVER- It is really difficult for us to get away!! Especially with Christmas here. The physicians make their schedule months in advance. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
When are things going to get better for good???

Myrta

Okay, are you spending 15 hours a week with him doing fun things? I think you need to build some new memories together. Even if you can go out together doing something nice for a few hours, with no relationship talk, it might help.

But there are still going to be bad days, for no apparent reason. One of the symptoms of depression is irritability, and not sleeping well doesn't help.

Hang in there girl, you can do this.

I think there is a perception problem.

We are supposed to have time for each other 15 hours a week..

Last night we hugged for two minutes. There was no conversation. Went to bed---- Myrta asked for her customary backrub so she can fall asllep as fast as possible; no conversation.

The above has been going on for the last week or so---------- No conversation. BTW, I don't ask about affair details anymore, that is past history. There is simply nothing to talk about.

On the few nights when we spend some time together I rub Myrta's back or play with her hair while she watches TV-------- no conversation. This is about one hour at the most. I am asked to shut-up---- "please I can't talk now". Same story at bedtime, too tired to talk or for anything else, "I am exhausted" she says. We are way behind scheddule regarding those 15 hours!

In the paast I was very low maintenance. Now Myrta does not know what to do. Now she is married to someone who actually has ENs. IN the past I adapted to whatever was available. This time I am having a hard time adapting. If I act naturally and want companionship I am told to go to the gym, play golf, get out of the house, ect, ect. It is hard to fake---- I feel the way I feel and I am the way I am.

My plan is to pull back as much as I can to see if I can get used to being alone with my thoughts and not to depend on ENs.

Alright, now we're getting somewhere. The two of you are in recovery, believe it or not. The recovery plan here includes a minimum of 15 hours a week together, doing pleasant things.

If you must schedule the time, disconnect the TV, phone, and computer, do it. Dr. Harley insists the 15 hours are necessary. It is good for both of you to create new memories.

Please report daily the activities and time you spend on this new program.

My gosh!!! Perception problem??
Our daughter has been moving all this past week with us. Just yesterday I was at her apartment helping her clean and carrying stuff to my car to bring to our house. I was dead tired by the time I went to sleep. This has been going on for the last week. I had not been avoiding any conversation whatsover.
The times that He wants to talk, is questions about the affair, things that pop into his mind(his words).
On Saturday night we went out for dinner to a very nice italian restaurant, we had a good time I think. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
I want him, yes, to resume activities that will make him sweat, get tired. That always makes me feel better, better attitude. Thats all!!

Myrta