</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> When I shrink away I want her to get closer and hold me tighter. I want her to do the work to MAKE me belive completely again.

Sorry, I thought it sounded like reversed psychology </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No need to be sorry because you are correct in thinking it could be that. The way I take it is that I can hardly believe that someone could love me enough so I need to be more or less forced into seeing it.

GREERGAN-AW- Well, I am back from visiting my daughter at her dorm and also picking up my youngest in school and I find all these responses.
Thank you to all!

I should say that many times I volunteer information to my husband, the times I have done it, he looks surprised, other times he looks shocked with what I tell him.
I get very worry about his well being and ask him how he is doing. His response is always, "worry about yourself, I am fine". He looks like some kind of possesed zombie.
It is very difficult indeed to make time for us during the week, since he gets home around six pm, then is dinner, and all of a sudden its time for bed. I dont spend so much time in the computer talking to my sisters,maybe 45 minutes the most!! Most of the time, he is behind me reading the conversation, and making comments about it. He likes to read what they are saying.
I guess we could take like an hour or so for only us, but the thing is that, he just looks at me with the sad look, that it just makes me very uncomfortable,sad, so I start doing things. He says to me, that he is not looking at me any negative way, but admiring my beauty <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> .
But his look does not look like he is admiring me.
Other times, he asks things that are useless info about the affair, things that dont have any relevance to our recovery.

TOOMUCHCOFFEEMAN- I appreciate your posts to us.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I know I was not very nice to you, at the beginning of me posting here. I was too much in the fog to appreciate everyone's advice.
I really,really try to make my husband as happy as possible, and I also try not to do any DJ anymore. He is a very negative person right now, and him being that way makes me scare, makes me pull away from him. His comments are so negative, the look in his eyes is very sad. We were doing better at the b eginning, when he was having this contest with the OM to "win me back". NOw he says, that there is nothing to look forward to. That gave him stamina,energy, now, its all left from his body. He says that there isnothing for him to look forward to, that his future seems bleak <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> . How am I supposed to absorb those remarks from him?
I see it, as DIVORCE, because he is so unhappy with me, that he is not going to be able to keep on going.
What I see with US, is nothing good, because he is just too negative, and I repeat again, he has not completely forgivven me> Forgiveness is the first key to the recovery of the marriage.

Thank you all for your great advice here.

MYRTA

<small>[ November 30, 2004, 03:44 PM: Message edited by: Myrta ]</small>

Myrta and Stanley:

Have you guys made arrangements to see a MC yet? Your marriage is far too important to be left to the likes of us on this MB. People here mean well, but your marriage NEEDS professional help. WHat is the hold up in seeking counseing? I think you guys are playing with fire in not getting some hard core counseling ASAP.

Just my .02

Good luck

LEMONMAN- NO, we have not make arrangements for a marriage counselor. We went to a couple of sessions after DD, but she was a very mediocre counselor, so we stopped going. We have not look again, dont know how to find a good one, to tell you the truth.
Yes, we do need professional help, otherwise we will be history pretty soon!!!

Thanks Lemon!!

MYRTA

Thanks MYRTA!

I see some of myself being explained with your words about your beliefs and they scare me because I know I am acting the same way.

The truth is some where in between.

GREERGAN <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />
WELL, my husband just got home from work, and he is worst than this morning. He says that I am the ONE with the key to his happiness. I just have to give him affection,love,sex, 24-7, but on the other hand, he says that the affection I give him its all FAKE!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> He wants my FAKE affection to feel better with himself!!!
Thats a very complicated puzzle for me. His needs according to him are not being met by me, but yet the little I do, is FAKE!!
He just left to go to the gym, because he says thats what I want him to do. I just want him to exercise so he can feel mentally better. Exercising does wonders to the mind!!
I have a need to feel protected,safe by him, but he is not doing that, but I dont walk around complaining the whole day, or looking like I have a terminal disease!! I dont want to burden him with my things, since I was hoping it will all pass. But at this rate, it is never going to get better!!!
I think he wants me to start the divorce proceedings, because he does not want to appear like he is the bad guy.
I really dont know what to do!!!
I am in a dowright spiral!!!!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

MYRTA

Myrta,

Let me offer you something to think about. You won't like it much but I do hope you consider it.

You had an affair, right? It shattered Stanley's belief that you want to be married to him and that you do love him and want him. Everytime he gets down or he asks for something you protray it as him pushing or punishing you. BUT, the thing that really makes this bad is that you THINK HE will divorce you.

You keep bringing up divorce to a man that is uncertain that he is loved or wanted in a marriage. Yes, you cloak it in you feel HE will want a divorce, but the reality is the only way that will happen is if YOU decide to push his buttons, and you both know it.

Do you see the problem here? If you want this marriage then darn it act like it and quit bringing up divorce, even if it is your fear of it. Why, because it was YOUR interpretation of your marriage that allowed you to decide that having an affair was NOT a bad idea. Stanley knows this and fears that your stated fear of divorce is really your code for you don't want him, except on YOUR terms.

Now from his point of view, this is very unsettling which leads to the behavior you are seeing in him. IF you want him stablized in this marriage YOU need to be committed to it, and that means acting in fear of divorce must stop or you will create the very think you claim to fear. You need to be the stable and steadfast one.

The good news is that you MIGHT get to blame him for the divorce and break up of the family.

The bad news is that no matter who takes the blame or deserves it your marriage will be gone and your family will be harmed.

I frankly don't see anything positive in your fear and I don't think it is protecting you as you think it is. It is in fact unsettling your H and you are seeing the results.

If you positively want this marriage, then you need to start acting positive about it and your H, and surely yourself. I am not kidding Myrta, you do set the tone in your family and you are setting it in your marriage. That is the reality and no amount of talk will change that.

So the question is...Do you want a good and happy marriage? If so start acting like you want to be married to your man for the rest of your life and stop the talk about him divorcing you.

I sure do hope this makes sense to you.

God Bless,

JL

<small>[ November 30, 2004, 06:16 PM: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</small>

JUST LEARNING- I dont mind at all what you are telling me. I might be guilty of that yes, but is with good reason.
First of all, he is always down, he always looks like he is staying married to me because he does not want to hurt our children.
No matter what I do, how much love, or sex, or actions I do to him, he is always, always UNHAPPY!!!
HE looks like he is about to be put in the electric chair.
I feel cornered by the way he looks, the way he looks at me, the things he says to me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
I know I was the horrible person that did the most horrible act in the world, but thats FINISHED!!!! THAT is past history, we are here together, and YES I want this to work, but I would like him to be positive about it. Most of the time I am positive, I get dishearten when several days pass and his attitude is still the same.
He goes to work and he comes back from work and he does not greet me. He does not call me from work, because he says to me"whats the point"! Even if we dont talk too much on the phone, I like him to call ME. I like him to look for me, but now, he thinks that being pulling away from me is going to do the trick. and IS NOT!!!
YES, JL, I do fear, no matter what he says or you tell me or others, I do fear that we might end up divorce.
But JL, its not going to be because of my A, it will b ecause he wants it that way.
I do love him, I love my family, I love my children, I love US together, long history we have, that we cannot let go even if I did THAT!

I know you think I am not behaving like I am suppose to , but JL, I am doing what I have to do. My words and my actions match each other. His dont. He says he loves, but he acts like he dreads being by me.
He pulls away from me in bed, every time I touch him. He does not kiss me, or touches me, I rather he is all over me, than with this pessimistic indiference!!!

Thank you, as always, you are great!!

MYRTA

I agree with JL totaly.

Never ever, ever say the D word again unless you want it and will follow through with it.

Yo, Stanely it can get better if you allow it to. What happened sux and the thought process that you and I seem to share AND the thought process that our wives seem to share are so far apart that it boggles my mind.

I know that I must accept this fact and find a way to belive what my wife is telling me. She is still with me and is showing plenty of affection etc. I also know that I can not expect her to completly change over night. It all takes work for both people.

I know for myself that I am in controll of my own happiness. I have been reading like mad to be able to understand as much as possible about the situation as well as other co-dependent behaviours and family shame cycles. Very revealing about my own behaviours, both good and bad ones. Very revealing about how my family has been not-working very well.

It sounds to me like your wife loves you. Start believing it and get both of you to MC.

P.S. Don't go to the gym because she wants you to. Do it because it used to and can again make you feel good.

Myrta, I wish you lots of paitence and hope my own wife will have plenty of it when I have my depressive moods.

Stanley and Myrta -

Before I found MB I read a lot of the research about the impact of an extramarital relationship on a marrige. The statistics are rather grim.

One published in the National Library of Medicine by Charny and Parnass. Two groups of practicing therapists were asked to describe in depth a specific extrmarital affair with which they were familiar.

Of 62 cases, 21, or 34%, end in divorce - in the therapists jusgements as a consequence of the infidelity. In 43.5% the marriages were preserved, but in an overall dysphoric or negative atmoshere. In 6%, the marriages were intact but either "blah" or empty and the future of the marriage still in doubt.

Only in 9 cases, or 14.5%, were the marriages reported intact and characterized by improvement and growth. Of these, 4 were cases of one-time affairs.

Analysis of the direct impact of the affair on the betrayed spouses showed that the majority of the betryaed suffered significant damage to their self-image, personal confidence, or sexual confidence, feelings of abandonment, attacks on their sense of belonging, betrayals of trust, enraged feelings, and a surge of justification to leave their spouse.

I don't write this to discourage you, but to encourage you to realize the seriousness of where you are. Please invest in the money to talk to the Harley's and follow their advice.

Love to both of you.

Originally posted by Myrta:
I know you think I am not behaving like I am suppose to , but JL, I am doing what I have to do.

What? This is not clear here, Myrta. You seem to be contradicting yourself. Can you say what you are doing that you "have to do"?

My words and my actions match each other. His dont. He says he loves, but he acts like he dreads being by me.

MYRTA ... he's acting like he's in terrible pain!!!

He pulls away from me in bed, every time I touch him. He does not kiss me, or touches me, I rather he is all over me, than with this pessimistic indiference!!!

I am confused again <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Weren't you recently complaining that your H was "demanding sex" when you did not particularly want it?

Pep

Not long ago Myrta accused me of wanting SF and affection all the time and that this expectation was putting a lot of stress on her. She mentioned this in one of the threads.

Since that day I have made a conscious effort to scale back and stopped seeking her in bed, She said she would rather initiate, so it is up to her. I don't want to pressure her.

I also tried to be more low key and not touch her all the time. Before that I would hug her any time she passed by me in the house and tried to kiss her, etc.

Then it came out-------- she is not into kissing and says that she rather kiss a man without a mustache because it tickles her nose. OOOOOOOOK, so I scale back the kissing and the hugging.

I was calling her several times a day and slowly stopped as I noted she was always in a hurry. I even tried to time my calls when she was doing nothing such as waiting in line to pick up my daughter in school.

Now she says I am not looking for her.

Listen people--------- with women one can never win.


I don't have a mortal expression in my face all the time. I think my face simply reflects an underlying depression that has been worsened significantly by the fact that I had to curtail my true feelings for my wife so she does not feel pressured.

The depression generally gets better with SF and affection and then gets real bad after three days of no affection. I think it has been at least 6 days since we were together------ Therefore, it is getting to me. She is on her period and I guess she likes to wait until there is zero blood, not even a speckle. Sorry for being graphic. In the past when things were good if the passion was there we would have done it while she was in her period. Those days are gone! So I will wait and see how it goes.

I don't want to end the marriage and I never mention the D word. However, every time something goes wrong between us Myrta uses the D word right away.

Believer, I want to be in that minority that actually makes the marriage work. It is frightening to think there is such a high rate of failure. I wish we could go back to pre-affair days, Now I realize how good we had it. As I said our marriage was not a 10/10, but it was probably a 9/10. In fact as Myrta was starting the EA we were having great SF and companionship. I specifically remember that time and that is why I was in shock to discover the fact that the affair started when we were not having any crisis in our relationship.

As for affection: Myrta has categorically stated she will not do it with the frequency that I desire and that is the way it will be. I guess I will adapt, I always did. However, this time around i find myself with low self-esteem and having ENs (never thought about this in the past).

Pep:

I am quite confused as well. Are you saying that as a woman don't do these tricks on your H?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Stanley568:

Pep:

I am quite confused as well. Are you saying that as a woman don't do these tricks on your H? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Stan ... I can recognize a trick question when I read one... I am NOT going to pit myself against your W by answering this!

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Stanley - I have posted to you for a long time. Please trust me (your friend) and get counseling from the Harley's. It is expensive - can't remember how much, but like $300. for an hour.

However, they cut to the chase. They will tell you what to do. You may only need one session. I am really scared for you and Myrta. I think you belong together, but are not doing the things you need to do in recovery.

The statistics I gave you were those from regular therapists, not the Harleys. Please contact them.

BELIEVER- I know, that what I did is very serious. I am very aware that this is very,very difficult task, to try to rebuild our marriage after an affair. It is rather scary to see those percentages right in front of my face. I hope we can be included in the lucky ones that make it, and make it being happy with each other.

PEPPERBAND- I guess I did not say right <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> . Remember english is not my first language. I was trying to tell JL, that I know he thinks I am not doing what I am suppose to do, but I think I am.
I know he is in pain, Pepperband, but do you think that I am not? I feel like s...! I have a headache from thinking and thinking what I did to him, to us!! Do you think its a picnic for us WWs? It is not!!! Its a living hell to try to live with the guilt of what you did to your spouse and marriage!! It is a hell to see your spouse suffering so much for something that I did!!!!
I know what I said in the past, but I repeat again, I rather he is all over me 24-7, if that makes him happy that to see him walking and looking at me like death is upon him!!!
Thats not want I want for my husband.

I appreciate your posts Believer and Pepperband!!

MYRTA

Myrta -

I always sympathise with the WW's here. But I think you need to talk to the Harleys, and do what they say to do. I promise you they will tell your to spend 15 hours a week.

The statistics I wrote are sad, but those people weren't in the MB program.

BELIEVER- You are a very kind woman to simpatize with us FWWs, especially after what you have been put thru.
We really dont deserve a lot of simpathy if we all think about it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
I think we are doing like nine hours a week, not fifteen. We spend like an hour a day,since we watch a program together every weekday and on weekends we always go out for dinner,just the two of us, and thats a couple of hours there.
But I do agree with you, I think our marriage is in danger and needs professional help.

Thank you so much for your kindness Believer.

MYRTA

Myrta -

You know that I care about you and your husband. Please spend the 15 hours, and make it the most important thing. After that, please get counseling with the Harleys. They will help you and your husband.

Sometimes it only takes one session. Very cheap considering what is at stake.

Please be calm tonight and know that there are many people pulling for you.

Are you saying that as a woman------------- you don't do these tricks on your H?

Maybe it flows better that way.

In any event:

About 3-4 months ago I wrote Myrta several emails about the need for conversation, emotional intimacy, and radical honesty. My pledge was not well received---------------- in fact my request was never discussed by a reply email or in conversation.

I knew very little about MB principles at that time, but I had spent a lot of time in trying to figure out why Myrta fell so hard for the OM. In the aftermath of D-day the emails from OM kept on coming and I had also read a few hundred emails pre D-day. I also asked Myrta many times why she was so highly attracted to a man that was such a mismatch to her in terms of appearance.

The available emails and Myrta’s responses suggested that conversation, admiration, and emotional intimacy were the key for the success of the affair. So I assumed I could somehow recapture Myrta by trying the same thing. I thought this was important because I courted Myrta when we were kids. In other words I never had a chance to court Myrta as an adult and by the time we were older and more mature we had been married for a long time with a couple of kids. However, my plan was never put into effect and we forgot about it.

I realize that I could never NEW in the relationship. And NEW is a very important element in an affair. I also learned that NEW was an aphrodisiac.

After D-day Myrta became a woman I have never seen before. So in a sense, she was NEW to me. However, for Myrta I am still the same old guy that has been around for ever.

Therefore we have a dysbalance! I want my ENs and she could care less about ENs.

We are seeking different things even if we both want to save the marriage. Myrta wants the old days----------- She wants me to be laid back and low maintenance. I also want the old Myrta back, but I know that is an impossibility-------- she is permanently changed. Hopefully my change is transient and we will meet in the middle.

Sorry for the ramblings, this is something that only Myrta may read and for others it is boring stuff.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And NEW is a very important element in an affair. I also learned that NEW was an aphrodisiac. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Stanley, you are very perceptive. These "NEW-nesses" are aphrodisiacs for the A....But what many don't realize is that NEW really can be in the M again - and can be an aphrodesiac for the M as well. It's about finding joy in each other, and doing enjoyable activities together.

In that respect, Believer is exactly right about spending the 15 hours together. Someone on MB told my H and I early in recovery,

People often forget that Recovery can be FUN.

Recovery can be about re-discovering each other, and re-discovering what you like about each other. Somewhere along the lines of M, you each got "lost." Now you are in a position to "find" each other.

You say that she has changed....but maybe these are just aspects of her personality that weren't so forward during your M....but were underlying. Perhaps you might have lost part of yourself along the way as well? What are some of the things you like to do? What are some aspects of life you would like your W to share in?

Really these questions can go to both of you.....What do you want to do in life? What are your dreams? What are some things you have never done, but would like to do?

Don't you want to share these with each other? Don't you want the other to enjoy these things with you? Don't you want to re-discover each other?

I notice you both really looking at all the Recovery as a lot of work. And a lot of things that you "have tried" but it didn't get the result you wanted. So why don't you rest for just a moment, and think about living life, and sharing it with each other. Think about trying to build this intimacy and affection through sharing and re-discovery. Not through demands and servitude.

Just an idea. Try to make some of this Recovery fun <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />