Fifteen hours a week. That is the recovery plan. Figure out how to do it. This should come before your daughter, your family, everything. Recovery is the hardest part, so please get on board and do the necessary things.

Believer:

We posted at the same time and we both thought aabout those 15 hours.

I know Myrta will interpret this as an LB, but here it goes:

At most, on a good week we may have 7 hours together (one hour a day). On most weeks I would say we have about 4 hours.

Whenever Myrta has free time in the evening she chats on the computer. I sometimes sit from a distance and simply watch her chat. I try to talk, but she mainly wants to chat to her sisters.

When I get home from work I try to have some time with Myrta, but she seems to be always running around and in a hurry; she cannot stay still.

Shortly after D-day I would come home and hugged her, kiss, ect, talk. Those days are gone, now I just get acknowledged as I enter the door. I have tried to be less demonstrative and have pulled back as well. When one is not reciprocated the natural tendency is to pull back. I am not that eager to engage her in communication and don't seek her in bed as I used to. At some point one gets disheartened.

I understand it is not easy to get over a two year affair. At some point Myrta said that one cannot undo in a few months what took two years to build.

I will be frank, I think she is in withdrawal. She will deny this, but she certainly acts the part rather well.

From Myrta's point of view she is doing all she can regarding my ENs. The problem is that she compares to pre-affair times when I was satisfied with minimal effort from her part. Everything was fine at that time because I was not wounded. BTW, I am not looking for pity. I don't need her pity or sympathy. I don't want her to be remorseful or sad. I have told her she does not need to feel overwhelmed if i seem to be sad. A little comfort and TLC can take care of that in just a few minutes. JL has mentioned this to Myrta countless of times. Myrta does not get the fact that she has all the power to make everything OK. At this point I am powerless.

Obviously I want to stay married, but I simply cannot function like she wants me to. Myrta longs for the pre-affair days when I was laid back and never pressured her at all for anything.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Stanley568:
<strong> I think there is a perception problem.
....
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think that perception is the cause for all problems, both before and after the A.

Of all of the stories that I have read the story of Myrta and Stanley sounds like the closet to my own.

It sounds like I probably act like Stan and my wife acts like Myrta.

Myrta, I am judging that you feel like you are doing enough to knock down Stan's insecurities. I believe that you believe that.

I am just wondering if you can share easily? Are you able to tell Stan what is going on in your head without editing it or without being asked? Are you able to just say it, whatever it is?

I ask because you sound so much like my wife and I know that she has problems with complete emotional honesty. That EN is my number 1. For me to feel comfortable I need to know what my partner is feeling.

Stan, I am wondering if this is what you are missing the most? I ask because it is what I am missing the most.

Myrta, I would be suprised if you were able to give to much attention/affection to Stan. I say this because no matter how much attention/affection I could ever get from my wife it would not be enough (well in time it will become balanced, but at the moment I would feel the best if she would hold my and or knee 24x7).

Stan, do you ever believe that Myrta does love you enough? Do you belive that and then feel less than loved? I ask only because that is how it works for me.

Please do the 15 hours together and be flexible about it. I believe and hope that a commitment and follow through on this very small amount of time can work wonders.

Will either of you have problems splitting the time...1/2 of the time doing what the other wants?
I ask only because I fear that when my wife commits to this that we will have problems at the beginning with negotiating how we will use that time.

I hope that I have not come across as being an assumming @ss. It is just that your situation and my own sound so darn close, it is really kinda scarey. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

GREERGARN-BELIEVER-
I DO GIVe myhusband a lot of attention. I try to touch him, to get close to him in bed and he shrinks away from me. When he was sitting in the computer, I sit on his lap, and he looks like I am doing something crazy. Like he wants me to get out pronto!!
I tell him that I love him, I hug him, I kiss him. He cannot deny this!! <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />
A lot of times when he gets home from work, I am upstairs, (computer,phone,etc) and he does not come looking for me, he sits in the kitchen computer and I dont even know he is home!!!
I am not the "bad guy" of this movie anymore!!!
I am not!!! I was in withdrawal, but I am not anymore!!! for a long time I had been out of withdrawal. He does not believe me, but I am. He is the one in withdrawal.

Myrta

P.S. Right now, I am off to see my daughter in
campus (her university) to bring her some
stuff and have lunch with her.

<small>[ November 30, 2004, 09:16 AM: Message edited by: Myrta ]</small>

Stanley pulling back and not 'having' En's is separation. And you will fail. We all have EN's you know that!!

Ok you say Myrta wants no discussion at bedtime - well what happens between you coming home and bedtime??? If the TV gets in the way turn the bloody thing off!! If you need to talk Stanley please make the time, it doesn' have to be at bedtime. Why dont you both agree to a set period of time to discuss feelings and issues, that way it does not end up being the LAST thing you discussed before sleep. I think that could be very hurtful to your relationship if it has become a nightly thing, Aussie & I had to stop it too and do as our IC/MC said to do as above.
Surprisingly it worked well though it was a bit awkward to begin.

You have as much resposibility as Myrta in starting discussion and keeping it on course to the matter at hand. Of course both of you may have times where you dont want to discuss issues, so do something else together at that time.... a walk, sit in the garden, anything Stanley. IC/MC said the trick is to turn these little disappointments into something positive because sometimes one of us REALLY wanted to talk and the other didn't at all, so it had to wait. I'm not saying we were not annoyed at the other but the effort of being/doing something together blunted the angst quite a bit.

Stanley you of all people should know that AD's used correctly can be of great help. I understand your distrust because I have it myself. I use St Johns Wort instead, could that be an option for you as well???

Are you getting any professional counselling Stanley? I know Aussies Dad who was a neighbourhood MD (spent first half of his life learning to kill people and the rest of it trying to save them) was very reluctant to get any help when he was having trouble with what we know these days is PTSD. Tried to self medicate and that was a FLOP!! He went eventually to a professional who helped a lot. And he was one of those people who thought IC was a load of bull and that most IC's were crazier than the people they treated!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

You can do this Stanley and so can you Myrta, I know it.

Myrta, I believe you. I really do. I belive that you feel like you give enough physical affection.

I believe that Stan shrinks away some times. I do also, my hope...my need is for my wife to force herself on me a little more. When I shrink away I want her to get closer and hold me tighter. I want her to do the work to MAKE me belive completely again.

Right or wrong that is how it works for me. How about you Stan?

I think that perception is the cause for all problems, both before and after the A.

Amen, she pulled away from me when she started affair and she perceived I was the one pulling away, therefore the A is justified.

I was regularly denied sex and then I was told I never initiated.

When I said, "but I do, I try to initiate". She then said, you don't try hard enough.

The list is long


I am just wondering if you can share easily? Are you able to tell Stan what is going on in your head without editing it or without being asked? Are you able to just say it, whatever it is?

I have to pry info like this with pliers. Otherwise, she never volunteers.

I ask because you sound so much like my wife and I know that she has problems with complete emotional honesty.

Not been talkative is common among WWs. OTOH, some WWs talk a lot and their husbands heal much faster.

I say this because no matter how much attention/affection I could ever get from my wife it would not be enough


I passed that stage. Right now I am looking for a little bit so I don't feel so much despair. It does not take a whole lot. My wife wants me to be real tired at night so I don't bother her. I am going to become a gym rat and spend all my free time lifting weights.

Stan, do you ever believe that Myrta does love you enough? Do you belive that and then feel less than loved? I ask only because that is how it works for me.

I think she loves me. I can't picture her loving OM------ it is a mismatch!


I have the feeling that if i pull back my wife may come around. But, then again she had the A when I was laid back. BTW, I believe her A had nothing to do with unfulfilled ENs.

BTW, the only conversation that we had yesterday and today was thru the MB web site. We did not talk about these issues in person. There is not time for that.

<small>[ November 30, 2004, 10:09 AM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

Ok you say Myrta wants no discussion at bedtime - well what happens between you coming home and bedtime??? If the TV gets in the way turn the bloody thing off!! If you need to talk Stanley please make the time, it doesn' have to be at bedtime. Why dont you both agree to a set period of time to discuss feelings and issues, that way it does not end up being the LAST thing you discussed before sleep. I think that could be very hurtful to your relationship if it has become a nightly thing, Aussie & I had to stop it too and do as our IC/MC said to do as above.
Surprisingly it worked well though it was a bit awkward to begin.

AW, she is a moving target--- no chance!

Myrta says I talk about the A. In the last several weeks I only asked one question about the A and it was not about description or narration. Iasked her what about the kids? What did you do when they were arond in the summer months? That was it!

The OM is trying to become a trusted friend of the family back home. I also discussed that issue, but made no reference to the A.

Geergan:

I sometimes try reverse psychology, you are correct. However, it does not work. I know how you feel. It will get better with time.

I hope this passes and that I don't need ENs anymore. To be honest I was VERY low maintenance!

<small>[ November 30, 2004, 10:22 AM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

OMG, your description matches mine to the T.

Myrta, could you agree to check in with Stanley every so often without being asked? Could you share your emotions a little more freely with him from time to time? Try doing this for a week and see how your husband responds then.

On the days when my wife has done this my heart has jumped and I have been set emotionally for the day. I love it when she tells me where she is in her head and then asks me where I am.

I am not sure what it is but I feel like the affection that comes during/after an honest emotional exchange means more and the good feelings left after the physical touch is gone lasts longer.

Right or wrong, I know that I am better able to focus on other things besides my W and our M when this kind of stuff happens.

Stanley,

Forgive me for butting in but do you think that just maybe taking a short break from the forums might just help you and Myrta talk more with each other? This forum can be a Godsend but it can also become an hindrance by relying on it too much [my own W has to yank my ear to get off the computer. Ouch! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ]. Lastly, try to give each other the benefit of the doubt by avoiding disrespectful judgements of each other.

TMCM

an honest emotional exchange means more and the good feelings left after the physical touch is gone lasts longer.


What makes this real hard is that emotional exchange or intimacy with OM was effortless. With me she keeps her cards close to her chest. She feels anything she says will be used by me when I finally decide to divorce her. That is how she thinks.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Stanley568:
<strong>
Geergan:

I sometimes try reverse psychology, you are correct. However, it does not work.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not sure where reverse psychology comes into play here?...maybe I said something without seeing it myself.

<strong>
I hope this passes and that I don't need ENs anymore. To be honest I was VERY low maintenance! </strong>[/QUOTE]

I would urge you not to go this route. I am thinking that life is more fun when ENs get met. I have repressed mine during most of my marriage and I know that has had an affect on me my wife and our kids.

Isn't the point of recovery and staying in the M to be happy, some times for the first time in the M....you both have to understand what the other needs and then agree on weather or not enough ENs can be met to continue together.

It sounds like the getting there part might be harder than acceptance of the A. I think it will be in my situation.

<strong>
What makes this real hard is that emotional exchange or intimacy with OM was effortless.
</strong>

I have not asked but feel that this is probably the case with my WW and OM. I honestly do not want to know for sure.

<strong>
With me she keeps her cards close to her chest. She feels anything she says will be used by me when I finally decide to divorce her. That is how she thinks. </strong>

Same with my WW. I am thinking this is the case in my situatuion because my WW does not want to scare me off. I did not ask to much because I did not want to scare her off. A damaging cycle that helped lead to a fantasy world that has had reality based side affects.

I can only guess that she thinks I will think poorly of her if she shares to much with me.

Talk about the mother of all LBs!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Stanley568:
What makes this real hard is that emotional exchange or intimacy with OM was effortless. With me she keeps her cards close to her chest.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">See what I mean by DJ [disrespectful judgements]? How do you KNOW that intimacy with the OM was effortless, did she tell you so?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She feels anything she says will be used by me when I finally decide to divorce her. That is how she thinks.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">While this is also a DJ on her part, aren't you in some ways feeding this with your own DJ?

Beleive me when I say that I'm not bashing you and taking her side on this because you are BOTH equally guilty in how you are presently relating to each other. As I said before, BOTH of you MUST give each other the benefit of the doubt in order to feel emotionally safe with one another.

TMCM

TMCM:

You are right!

However, I am frustrated. Wife does not talk about these issues in person. She would rather do it this way. Not sure why she thinks that way.

We are DJing, I will admit to that. But, she has told me more than once that I will divorce her in the end. This is not true, but she keeps saying it.

I saw the emails. I know about the intimacy with OM.

Geergan:

Wife does not talk because she feels i may think less of her, she said so.

<small>[ November 30, 2004, 10:58 AM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Stanley568:
<strong>

Wife does not talk because she feels i may thiunk less of her, she said so. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If my wife really feels this way about me then I am flattered and am more willing to teach her that I need to hear what she hides and then only hear it and never judge it.

I view it as she has more respect for me than she does for OM and that my opinion of her counts more to her than that of OM.

MMMmmmm Stanley

well Myrta has been here too, why not STOP posting and take that lovely little hand of hers, make a nice pot of tes or coffee, a few choccy bics sit down look deeply into her eys and say you love her and TALK!!!

Of course I forgot..eeek its day time over there now isn't it & Myrta's out to lunch with your lovely D, but you get what I mean Stan....

Remember Myrta's only a moving target UNTIL you stop her moving.
And yep been guilty, head down suddenly found I have to scrub the floor, wash the car, whatever. But you are resourceful so give it a try & see if you both can agree to a time outside the bedroom, when you can get some privacy of course...lunch at home???

I just think its a good thing to keep the bedroom for the good side or at least the better side of this whole mess. Relearning the intimate En's and ensuring they are maintained. And love of course, even in the depths of pain. it always leaves me feeling some peace within as I drift of to sleep. I feel it helps.

Dont give up Stan IT IS worth it all. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Myrta, could you agree to check in with Stanley every so often without being asked? Could you share your emotions a little more freely with him from time to time? Try doing this for a week and see how your husband responds then.

Wish me good luck. JL has been saying this to Myrta from day one.

When I shrink away I want her to get closer and hold me tighter. I want her to do the work to MAKE me belive completely again.


Sorry, I thought it sounded like reversed psychology

AW:

It is not easy to find time to talk to Myrta. And when she dispenses some time it may only be for a few minutes before she stops talking or runs away. I am not necessarily talking about the A. Mostly it is about stuff we have posted here.

IMHO, the problem is a matter of balance. Myrta says she has gotten thru withdrawal, which is the difficult part for the WW. Now she seems tormented by remorse and the fact that I have ENs which were not there before the A. Because she is not in withdrawal anymore and the marriage is essentially saved she wants to go back to the old routine of 30 years of marriage. I cannot blame her for that. OTOH, it is hard for me to go back to that routine--------- I have to go through this process. I would gladly have SF daily as well as conversation and affection 24/7. However, I have accepted a pattern of SF that is quite similar to pre affair frequency. It is difficult, but I manage. I have slowly retired from conversation as this makes Myrta uncomfortable regardless of the theme. I am trying very hard, but sometimes we have very few hours a week together and I tend to get depressed without those hours.

<small>[ November 30, 2004, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Stanley568:
TMCM:

You are right!

However, I am frustrated. Wife does not talk about these issues in person. She would rather do it this way. Not sure why she thinks that way.

We are DJing, I will admit to that. But, she has told me more than once that I will divorce her in the end. This is not true, but she keeps saying it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Stanley this is her FEAR that's talking through DJ, and your pessimisim [via your own DJ] is feeding her fear. Don't you see that? It's a vicious cycle that unless one or both of you stops, it will continue until the marriage will become a casualty of it. You CAN break the cycle by forcing yourself to stop your pessimism and think what it would be like if death were to take Myrta away from you. Remember that we are only here for a short period of time and that all of us and our loved ones will be gone from this world the day we least expect it. Celebrate the time you have together before it is really too late.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I saw the emails. I know about the intimacy with OM.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The Myrta in those emails is NOT the same Myrta you have with you at this moment. Think of it like an alcoholic who is a nice person while sober and a cruel person when drunk, for that is exactly the difference between the Myrta in the affair and the Myrta post affair. They may inhabit the same body but they are NOT the same. Keep that in mind when your Taker tries to reassert itself.

TMCM:

You make very good points!

My wife interprets any negativity from my part as a desire to get a divorce. She keeps telling me I have to forgive her and this is puzzling to me. I have forgiven her, but I say things that suggest resentment. True forgiveness implies NO resentment-- so I have to forgive her again over and over. Like a typical FWW she also wants all of this stuff to go away. Hmm, that could be a DJ!

I was thinking about the intimacy issue. I saw the emails--- hundreds of them. When I think back I see a lot of what I would call pseudo-intimacy. When you profess love, but still go to bed every night with someone else that has got to be intimacy built on nothing but deceit and Disneyland fantasy. How can this be intimacy when this is said without any plans or desire to leave the marriage? At least some folks involved in affairs actually leave the spouse to follow the OP. In that case perhaps the intimacy was more genuine. I know for a fact my wife never intended to leave the marriage. So all the promises of love and soul mate statements were nothing more than bull$. I have a hard time dealing with this because when I say ILY I really mean it. That is why I told my wife that God knows what he is doing with me. If I ever had an affair and told the OW ILY I would be a goner, file for divorce and join the OW in marriage. I cannot understand how some say ILY to OP and then realize they love the spouse. I know it happens, I have seen it, but I don’t think I would be that way.

<small>[ November 30, 2004, 11:59 AM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>