</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Posted by ForeverHers (Member # 19263) on November 15, 2004 06:35 AM:

Myrta & Stanley - Knock, knock. This is God. You are both fighting to be in control of your marriage. May I come in and sit down on that throne?

Two "children" having a tantrum...will you listen to yourselves....and then listen to what God has to say....or will you continue to keep your faith "private" and not an integral part of our covenant together?

Do I mean that little to each of you? Is the "best you can do" only to get a warm, fuzzy, "close" feeling when you choose to attend church ONCE a week, or is it possibly better to have Me on the throne of your lives and marriage 24/7?

Do either of you have any idea WHY I created sex or for what purpose I created sex in marriage?

Enough! Stop the Pride and bend your knees.

I'll wait around and see if you both are willing to open the door and let me come in.

WWJD. With the two of you as His bride.........

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Posted by Myrta (Member # 37599) on November 15, 2004 06:57 AM:

FOREVERHERS- I dont think we want to be in control of the marriage, I really dont think that.
Its a very difficult situation we are going thru right now. We never been thru it before and we are doing as best as we can.
GOD has always been a big part of our lives, even if we only attend church once a week. Our daughters have always gone to catholic schools,they are very righteous girls, we pray at dinner,etc,etc.
I think and my husband does too, that God and religion is a very important part in our lives. But no, we are not 24-7 talking about it.

I really appreciate your input,ForeverHers. You are very nice, a bit strict, but nice.

Myrta

[ November 15, 2004, 07:46 AM: Message edited by: Myrta ]

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Posted by ForeverHers (Member # 19263) on November 15, 2004 07:41 AM:

Myrta, I almost had a somewhat lengthy post finished for you when my system locked up and I lost the entire thing. I don't have the time right now to recreate it, but I'll try to get back to it later. Sorry.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Once again a lengthy post, almost ready to be posted, got lost in cyberspace. I'm beginning to think that "someone" doesn't want God brought into this marriage.

Myrta, let's just pick up on one piece from the above quotation for now. The "back and forth" between you and Stanley, and the other posters who are trying to help, is almost getting comical. I say that without intending any disrespect, but I say so because of your clear revelation of your priorities in the following:

I dont think we want to be in control of the marriage, I really dont think that.
Its a very difficult situation we are going thru right now. We never been thru it before and we are doing as best as we can.

First, no, neither of you is doing the "best you can." The "issues" you are both dealing with are primarily issues of "will." It is NOT that you (or Stanley) "can't," as in do not have the ability to jump to the Moon, it is that you (and Stanley) "won't." You both CHOOSE not to and then rely on a plethora of excuses. You are both in a stage where it "feels comfortable" to moan and groan and give defenses and give excuses why each of you "can't."

Balderdash.

You both CAN. You just don't want to. So you use excuses like fear, "just reacting to what the other has said," doubts, etc.. In short, you are both REACTING and, sadly, reacting to your emotions and letting them control your actions.

Myrta, you and Stanley claim to be Christians, owned by God. Don't you think it is time you let God be in control of your marriage and your recovery? You are both continually seeking secular answers. That's fine up to a point, but neither of you is "your own." First you both belong to God. Second you both belong to each other. So "you" (both you and Stanley) come 3rd on the list. But you are both acting and behaving like "you" are Number 1.

You are both elevating your "needs" ahead of God and each other. It is past time for you both to take stock of your relationship with God. You are both "playing" at being Christians. Being a Christians is about love, sacrifice, servanthood, giving, doing, obeying God no matter what, learning about and growing in Christ-likeness. It is NOT about "putting on Christ" on those occasions when it "seems" like the thing to do. But then putting Him back in some closet the rest of the time.

Christ needs to be on the "throne" of your individual lives and on the "throne" of your marriage. You ARE Christians....unless that is merely a title you claim, but don't really believe that Christ is your personal Lord and Savior.

Myrta, the things you listed in your "response" and "defense" are all good things (going to church, praying at dinner, etc.. But those can be merely things you "think" you should do, while not an integral part of "who" you are. "Righteous girls" grow up. That's no protection unless they have a close walk with Christ. My wife and many others, even though they are Christians, have fallen into the sin of adultery. ALL of us, including me, have committed other sins against a Holy God.

Part of the process of learning is that God can use this "event" in your lives to reach you and teach. But you both have to be "humble enough" to open the door to Him, and no matter how "fearful" you might be, let go and let Him take control of your recovery and your marriage.

You need to simply commit to DO, to OBEY, what God commands even if, and especially if, you don't happen to "feel like" obeying. God IS LORD. God has the right to command and ours is NOT to refuse to obey. HE paid the price for us and when we accept Christ's sacrifice, we surrender the "authority" in our lives to Him.

This is where you and Stanley are still resisting God. Neither of you wants to "surrender" because you are still reacting to your fears. "How can a God I can't see and touch understand what I'm feeling and how can I simply trust Him to work for our good if I simply choose to obey Him no matter what?"

Think you two are the first couple to ever have those thoughts? How about Thomas?

So isn't it time that you "add" study into God's design for marriage into your "efforts?"

Where have all your attempts to "do it yourself" gotten you so far?

Here IS God's enduring promise to you both as you learn to walk closer to Him in Christ-likeness.

.........God
........../\
........./--\
......../----\
Wife/____\Husband


You WILL grow closer to each other in love and "in like" as you both grow closer to God and follow His commands. You may start out "far apart," but as surely as gravity will "pull" you to the ground no matter how tall the building is that you jump off, you WILL find the "distance" between you grow less and less as you move toward God, with Him always as the center of your marriage.

If you want some possible Christian Marriage Counselors in your area (many of whom provide counseling for free as part of their ministry), I will be happy to help in that area by pointing you to a website for trained Christian Marriage Counselors and you can do a "look up" for those who may be in your area.

God bless.

Stanley, you are very perceptive. These "NEW-nesses" are aphrodisiacs for the A....But what many don't realize is that NEW really can be in the M again - and can be an aphrodesiac for the M as well. It's about finding joy in each other, and doing enjoyable activities together.
In that respect, Believer is exactly right about spending the 15 hours together. Someone on MB told my H and I early in recovery,

I think finding that NEW is very important. My wife seems new to me, but to her I am the same OLD. I wish I could find a way to balance this. At one time I thought that if I had an affair my wife would get highly interested in me. It is the old competition syndrome I guess.

In any event we have never done 15 hours together in one week. I now believe this is very necessary, but it is always hard to make the time. When I examined Myrta’s affair I noted that even though the relationship was long distance they were in contact ALL the time by phone and Internet. In fact they were unknowingly doing more than 15 hours a week. I believe we can easily do at least 1.5 hours a night and then use the weekend for the rest.



You say that she has changed....but maybe these are just aspects of her personality that weren't so forward during your M....but were underlying. Perhaps you might have lost part of yourself along the way as well? What are some of the things you like to do? What are some aspects of life you would like your W to share in?

I must say I tried to get my wife involved in my stuff when we were young. We did a lot of things together (music, tennis, ect). Now we do not have anything like that in common. BTW, she has already started to share things with me such as reading MB regularly.

Really these questions can go to both of you.....What do you want to do in life? What are your dreams? What are some things you have never done, but would like to do?

I always envisioned my entire life with my wife and I still do. As for goals----- at my age (54) one starts to think about retirement and the idea of fully enjoying what is left for us in the planet. I certainly don’t look forward to be alone and divorced. At my age that is hard. I don’t think my wife wants the same. Although if she wanted she could leave me and have a life-long partner tomorrow. OTOH, I would have to go thru a grieving process of 1-2 years before trying to date at age 55-56------- Hmm-------- not nice! I want to be with my wife and enjoy her company. There is nothing better in this world for me.

I will think about taking a break from all this affair marriage stuff. It would be great to be normal again!

FH- I will get back to your post later.

Stanley,

It's too bad that a DJ v-chip can't be installed in our brains to counteract gems like the following ones:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"My wife seems new to me, but to her I am the same OLD."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Has your W told you this explicitly? If not then you are putting words in her mouth.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">" I certainly don’t look forward to be alone and divorced. At my age that is hard.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Doesn't this one send the message to her that you are with her not because you love her but because you are affraid of being alone and divorced?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don’t think my wife wants the same."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Once again, has she told you this explicitly?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">" Although if she wanted she could leave me and have a life-long partner tomorrow."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sure, she could probably find another man but don't assume that her relationship with that man would become a life long one like the present one. It's been shown time and again that most second marriages last even less than first ones, so the odds would not be with Myrta if that turned out to be the case. And even if a second marriage for Myrta would turn out to be a long one, who's to say that her new H would not cheat on her? Take the case of ITHURTS who cheated on her first H with the OM who she eventually married and who has turned her into a BW many times over with his serial cheating. Even if Myrta were to be very picky in selecting a new H, she could never be sure that she would end up with one like her first one, you, and she knows this. Isn't it time you acknowledge this as well?

TMCM

<small>[ December 01, 2004, 11:52 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

TMCM is absolutely right. You both are trying to say what the other person is feeling. The better and more healthy way would be just to focus on how you, yourselves are feeling. And not to anticipate what the other feels, or will do.

That was one thing that drove me away from my H - he kept saying I was going to cheat again. He had already predetermined it. I would have had to spend a lifetime fighting that - and he never would have gained any more trust in me. Because his mind was made up who I was going to be - a cheater.

And would it suprise anyone to know that even before my A, my H had already determined that I would cheat on him. For the entire year before my A, he would call me (if out of town) and say "Don't sleep with anyone tonight" or "I hope you're not sleeping with anyone."

I really think this was his way of "knowing" something was wrong in the M. But when I would bring things up for us to address (lack of SF, his not wanting to be around me, etc), he would deny and say he "was fine."

Please don't underestimate the destructiveness of these DJs. If either of you keep saying the other "wants a D" or "will get a D", then you will fulfill your own prophesy. Start telling each other, and telling yourselves you want to recover. And then set out on the quest together and not against each other.

Pssssst, Stanley:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> We did a lot of things together (music, tennis, ect). Now we do not have anything like that in common. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Aye, there's the rub! Who said you have to get involved in the OLD things? Why don't the two of you get together, and decide to do something neither of you have done before. Make an adventure out of it. Make it NEW! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Really these questions can go to both of you.....What do you want to do in life? What are your dreams? What are some things you have never done, but would like to do?

I always envisioned my entire life with my wife and I still do. As for goals----- at my age (54) one starts to think about retirement and the idea of fully enjoying what is left for us in the planet. I certainly don’t look forward to be alone and divorced. At my age that is hard. I don’t think my wife wants the same. Although if she wanted she could leave me and have a life-long partner tomorrow. OTOH, I would have to go thru a grieving process of 1-2 years before trying to date at age 55-56------- Hmm-------- not nice! I want to be with my wife and enjoy her company. There is nothing better in this world for me.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Stanley, reanswer that question without the focus on divorce. And what's that about not having goals at your age? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> You can have plenty of goals - retiring? What in the world are you going to do with that time? Travel? Join a league? Get involved in volunteer organizations? Those are all goals. So what are some of the things you would like to do?

Myrta, you can chime in, too!

And do take a break from focussing on the M - just enjoy life for a moment! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

You both CAN. You just don't want to. So you use excuses like fear, "just reacting to what the other has said," doubts, etc.. In short, you are both REACTING and, sadly, reacting to your emotions and letting them control your actions.

We seem to have a cycle----- up and down. Hmm, most things in nature are that way. In any event we are unable to maintain the highs. I am probably guilty of that and get depressed when I cannot get close to Myrta.

Myrta, you and Stanley claim to be Christians, owned by God. Don't you think it is time you let God be in control of your marriage and your recovery? You are both continually seeking secular answers. That's fine up to a point, but neither of you is "your own." First you both belong to God. Second you both belong to each other. So "you" (both you and Stanley) come 3rd on the list. But you are both acting and behaving like "you" are Number 1.

Hmm, when someone asks about my religion I always say Roman Catholic. I don’t think I ever said Christian, but obviously we are Christians and take communion once a week. As Myrta said before, when we go to mass we are VERY close to each other. Now more than ever we look forward to go to mass to experience the high of each other in front of God. It helps when the readings and the Gospel is relevant to our situation and when there is an animated priest saying the homily. That is a plus as most priests tend to be dull. Once we are back home we deal with the marriage in secular terms. You are correct about that. As to why we do it that way? I am not sure. I guess I am one of those who gives the benefit of the doubt to logic and moral relativity. I try to reason the whys and the causes without using God. Not sure why, but I do have a compartment in there.

You are both elevating your "needs" ahead of God and each other. It is past time for you both to take stock of your relationship with God. You are both "playing" at being Christians. Being a Christians is about love, sacrifice, servanthood, giving, doing, obeying God no matter what, learning about and growing in Christ-likeness. It is NOT about "putting on Christ" on those occasions when it "seems" like the thing to do. But then putting Him back in some closet the rest of the time.

I don’t disagree with you on the above. A true Christian should emulate Jesus 24/7.

Christ needs to be on the "throne" of your individual lives and on the "throne" of your marriage. You ARE Christians....unless that is merely a title you claim, but don't really believe that Christ is your personal Lord and Savior.

I don’t know what you mean by that. In the Catholic tradition one becomes a Christian because during baptism the parents agree with the church and God to raise the child as a Catholic (Christian). That implies a lot of work and religious education as well as other rites such as 1st communion, confirmation, ect. If one takes all the training seriously and one decides to be Christ like in all actions and thoughts one can become a darn good Christian. I have never seen the so-called born again experience of someone accepting Christ as the personal savior and becoming a Christian in an instant. I can tell you that if you wanted to become a Catholic it would take you a whole year of training and you would then be baptized, confirmed, and have 1st communion on the Easter Vigil. At that point you would be accepting Christ as your personal savior.

Myrta, the things you listed in your "response" and "defense" are all good things (going to church, praying at dinner, etc.. But those can be merely things you "think" you should do, while not an integral part of "who" you are. "Righteous girls" grow up. That's no protection unless they have a close walk with Christ. My wife and many others, even though they are Christians, have fallen into the sin of adultery. ALL of us, including me, have committed other sins against a Holy God.

Good points. My daughters went to catholic schools all their lives and there some naughty girls on campus, no doubt.

Part of the process of learning is that God can use this "event" in your lives to reach you and teach. But you both have to be "humble enough" to open the door to Him, and no matter how "fearful" you might be, let go and let Him take control of your recovery and your marriage.

I hear you FH--------- who knows-------- we may be doing something like that soon. We are looking for answers!

You need to simply commit to DO, to OBEY, what God commands even if, and especially if, you don't happen to "feel like" obeying. God IS LORD. God has the right to command and ours is NOT to refuse to obey. HE paid the price for us and when we accept Christ's sacrifice, we surrender the "authority" in our lives to Him.

That is the hard part. It requires a tremendous amount of dedication or perhaps someone who had that moment of mysticism ala St Theresa or St John of the Cross. These folks were in the presence of God 24/7 because they were special. I have only managed to feel that special a few times in my life and then it was for an instant. BTW, it was during Xmas.

You WILL grow closer to each other in love and "in like" as you both grow closer to God and follow His commands. You may start out "far apart," but as surely as gravity will "pull" you to the ground no matter how tall the building is that you jump off, you WILL find the "distance" between you grow less and less as you move toward God, with Him always as the center of your marriage.

Like I said, easier said than done---- at least for us.

FH:

I want to thank you for your thoughts. We may eventually talk to our priest to seek some help and to renew our marriage vows.

God Bless

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Like I said, easier said than done---- at least for us.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Stanley, of course it's easier said than done. That doesn't make it any less needed or required.

The "easiness" or "hardness" of any task, say....saving a marriage....is not the "determining factor" in commiting to the task. The GOAL is the determining factor. Then it's doing "whatever it takes" to achieve that goal.

You and Myrta have a HUGE factor that is a giant POSITIVE in all of this. You BOTH want the same goal of a loving, recovered, marriage. Now you are both struggling with HOW to best get there.

Surprise, surprise, there is no "one" answer. It's going to take a number of changes. BUT, the biggest change that is going to be needed is your individual relationships with Christ.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Christ needs to be on the "throne" of your individual lives and on the "throne" of your marriage. You ARE Christians....unless that is merely a title you claim, but don't really believe that Christ is your personal Lord and Savior.

I don’t know what you mean by that.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Stanley, your statement of not understanding sounds both very sincere and perhaps interested in a further explanation. I will see if I can set aside some time to explain this in better detail for you. If you'd prefer that I address this in a separate topic thread, let me know.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In the Catholic tradition one becomes a Christian because during baptism the parents agree with the church and God to raise the child as a Catholic (Christian). That implies a lot of work and religious education as well as other rites such as 1st communion, confirmation, ect. If one takes all the training seriously and one decides to be Christ like in all actions and thoughts one can become a darn good Christian.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay, let's begin here briefly. First, if I should say something that upsets you, please forgive me in advance. This is a subject, "becoming more Christ-like", or as it is usually referred to as the process of Sanctification, that is a lifelong subject and process of conforming our lives to one that brings honor and glory to God. It is motivated by our love for God and our desire to please Him as our Lord and Savior, not because we "can become a darn good Christian" in outward appearance to others.

Okay...someone does NOT become a Christian by being baptized, sprinkled, splashed, immersed, or whichever way. A person may "become" a Roman Catholic member that way, but not a Christian. Someone is "baptized" with the Holy Spirit when they accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. The "water baptism" is merely an outward profession to others of our surrender to God, the symbolic "burying our past sin controlled life with Christ and rising with Christ as a 'new creation' through His sacrifice on our behalf."

There is no "work" in becoming a Christian. No one can "earn" forgiveness or "justify" themselves before God whereby He is "required" to forgive us. To carry your explanation to it's "logical conclusion," no one who is not a Roman Catholic and who doesn't follow the "steps" set down in that denomination CAN be a Christian. That's obviously patently false, so there must be "another way" to become a Christian that is universal and applicable to all people.

THAT way is really quite simple. It is acknowledging our own sinful state, that Jesus Christ IS the promised Messiah, that Jesus did in fact both die on the Cross for us AND was bodily raised from the dead as the "first fruit" in fulfilment of God's promised salvation that "God himself would work for us." We then confess our sins to God, repent of them, and accept God's sacrifice of Jesus Christ and receive Him as our Lord and Savior.

That confession and acceptance of God's "free gift," unrelated to anything that we have "done" to earn salvation, IS when someone becomes a Christian.

At that point they are "babes" in the Christian faith. That is when the process of Sanctification begins. And that process will not end until we die and receive our glorified bodies. Until then, we continue to live in a body that is sinful by nature and in a world where we are "bombarded" with sin and justification for sin. It is THROUGH obedience to God's commands that we both grow in Christ-likeness and in the ability to "just say no" to sin, no matter how enticing or "logical" it might seem to engage in any particular sin.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have never seen the so-called born again experience of someone accepting Christ as the personal savior and becoming a Christian in an instant. I can tell you that if you wanted to become a Catholic it would take you a whole year of training and you would then be baptized, confirmed, and have 1st communion on the Easter Vigil. At that point you would be accepting Christ as your personal savior.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, Stanley, you HAVE seen the so-called born again experience of someone accepting Christ as the personal savior and becoming a Christian in an instant. You simply may not have recognized it as such. Part of that "blindness" to the "born-again" conversion is due to the doctrines of the denomination. The "rituals," if you will, of "do this, do that, then you will 'become' a Christian. But the reality is that anyone can become a Christian at any time by simply accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

Need proof that you have already seen this?

Try the Apostles as starters. Not one of them went through the "Catholic" process you described, and they were not even called "Christians" at the time. They were Jews. Jews who accepted Jesus Christ as the Messiah who was promised to the Israelites. Jews who surrendered their lives to Him simply because He called them. No training, not doing this or that first, no baptism initially (certainly not the indwelling of the Holy Spirit because the day of Pentecost was yet in the future). Then Christ began the process of teaching, of beginning the Sanctification process in their lives. They still "didn't get it right" on many occasions. Peter even succumbed to fear and denied even knowing Jesus Christ three times. But Christ used every situation to teach them (and us) and to use each situation to develop "good" in their lives. Regardless of our "past failings", Jesus CAN make a statement like "upon this (formerly fallen and weak) rock I will build my church (the catholic church of all believers)."

If you'd like one example of this "ability" or Jesus, read the story about the disciples and Jesus in the boat crossing the lake. Most of them were "seasoned" fisherman, accustomed to boating and being out on the lake. Yet when the storm hit, they let their fears take hold of them. Jesus, while He rebuked their lack of faith, demonstrated to them that HE is always "in control" and no matter what might be "out of our ability to control," nothing (including the wind and the waves) is beyond His ability to simply control with but a word. He is GOD. He is Creator. He is SOVEREIGN. Period.

Want another exampe? You have seen (although you may have forgotten) the thief on the cross with Christ. No training, no time left for the Sanctification process, no ability to be baptized with water....no nothing. All he had was his realization of his sinful state, his "just punishment" for his sins, his acceptance of who Jesus Christ was and is, and that all Christ had to do was to "say the word" and he would be saved (be a "Christian).

Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

How about Saul/Paul? Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles. A zealot was Saul, vigorously persecuting Christians whereever he found them, on the way to Damascus to root out more Christians. Jesus Christ intervened, and Saul became Paul in a "born-again" experience.

Even Paul continued to "fight" against his human sin-nature all of his life. He "succeeded" in the fight by surrendering to God and being obedient to God's commands. Becoming a "born-again" Christian has little to do with all sin somehow "magically being banished from our lives." It has to do with our eternal state, where we will live in eternity. It begins to "equip us" for the battle, for the battle with "life here on earth" through the process of growth and sanctification. This is the "idea" behind the command to "put on the full armor of God."

It has been my experience that a great number of Catholics either do not read, or have very little read, the Bible. Most of what is learned is through attendance at Church and, when they are young, through CCD classes. Those are both good things and ways to learn. But nothing surpasses reading the "textbook" for yourself. There is so much in there that can't be dealt with in weekly sermons simply because of time constraints.

Stanley, all Christians are part of the "catholic" church of believers. There are many "denominations" that those believers may identify with and belong to, but there is only one true "catholic church". The Bible is the same "textbook" for all believers in the Old and New Testaments. God speaks to each of us through those pages. It is written for ALL believers, not just the "clergy."

With respect to marriage, God has much to say about it in the Holy Scriptures. He has much to say about the "roles" of husbands and wives.

Think about this "connection." MB stresses the meeting of, the fulfilment of, our spouse's Emotional Needs and that our spouse will respond positively to the meeting of those needs. Who do you think created those needs in us? God did. What does God have to say about them and how YOU will receive the love and commitment you desire from your spouse? Two primary things.

Forgive as God has forgiven you.

Give, and ye shall receive.

You, the individual, forgive BECAUSE God has forgiven you of ALL of YOUR sins, even though you "merited" no forgiveness.

You focus on a "posture of servanthood," of meeting and giving to your spouse's needs ahead of your own, and you WILL receive the meeting of your needs as a response.

Stanley, in marriage we are "completers" of each other, not competers. We are "one flesh," no longer a "lone ship at sea." We give, even unto death, for our spouse....NOT as a "way" to get what we want, but because we love even if we are rejected (as Christ modeled for us). This is a major reason why the Scripture admonishes Christians to NOT be "unevenly yoked." Without Christ in our lives, talk about being "godly" or behaving in "obedience to God" is seen by the unsaved as mere "foolishness."

BUT, when you both have Christ in your lives, God's promises ARE for you both. HE is faithful and just to ALL of His promises. You can each "fight God," as Jonah did, or you can surrender to Him and let Him take His rightful place as LORD of your lives.

If you'd care for a pamphlet that explains this a little better I can email you a pamphlet entitled, Marriage, Whose Dream?. If you'd like it just drop me an email at mbforeverhers@yahoo.com and I'll send it to you.

God bless.

<small>[ December 02, 2004, 06:34 AM: Message edited by: ForeverHers ]</small>

FH:


Okay...someone does NOT become a Christian by being baptized, sprinkled, splashed, immersed, or whichever way. A person may "become" a Roman Catholic member that way, but not a Christian.

I do agree with you, but you fail to understand that in Catholicism those traditions are important. In fact, some Catholics would rather hear the priest say the mass in Latin (like the old days). All the traditions simply facilitate the connection with God. But, I agree with you, it can be done with no tradition at all.

To carry your explanation to it's "logical conclusion," no one who is not a Roman Catholic and who doesn't follow the "steps" set down in that denomination CAN be a Christian. That's obviously patently false, so there must be "another way" to become a Christian that is universal and applicable to all people.

I agree, see above. However, there are many who choose the rites and traditions to enhance the relationship with God. Traditions are very helpful to us mere mortals.


THAT way is really quite simple. It is acknowledging our own sinful state, that Jesus Christ IS the promised Messiah, that Jesus did in fact both die on the Cross for us AND was bodily raised from the dead as the "first fruit" in fulfilment of God's promised salvation that "God himself would work for us." We then confess our sins to God, repent of them, and accept God's sacrifice of Jesus Christ and receive Him as our Lord and Savior.
That confession and acceptance of God's "free gift," unrelated to anything that we have "done" to earn salvation, IS when someone becomes a Christian.

Obviously available in the Catholic faith! Remember we do communion in every mass. It is all about what you mention above.


The "rituals," if you will, of "do this, do that, then you will 'become' a Christian. But the reality is that anyone can become a Christian at any time by simply accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

See above


Want another example? You have seen (although you may have forgotten) the thief on the cross with Christ. No training, no time left for the Sanctification process, no ability to be baptized with water....no nothing. All he had was his realization of his sinful state, his "just punishment" for his sins, his acceptance of who Jesus Christ was and is, and that all Christ had to do was to "say the word" and he would be saved (be a "Christian).
Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

You don't have to tell me about that. I shed a tear or two every time I see that.

It all goes back to more 2000 years of traditions. It is hard to let go! But, those traditions serve a purpose and they help many in their quest to be with God. Some folks need a different method. FH, don't expect folks to give that up so easily.

Can you imagine a typical Irish-Catholic family that is unable to celebrate the 1st communion of their children? Can you imagine the Vatican without the Sixtine Chapel?

CATHOLICISM is more than a religion for many. It is the actual culture of their ancestors. These are things that come from many generations and are not going away any time soon.

The good thing is that I see hardly a difference between Catholicism and other Christian denominations. IMHO, the main difference is the emphasis on tradition one sees in RCA. Otherwise, everything else is more or less the same.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Part of the process of learning is that God can use this "event" in your lives to reach you and teach. But you both have to be "humble enough" to open the door to Him, and no matter how "fearful" you might be, let go and let Him take control of your recovery and your marriage.

I hear you FH--------- who knows-------- we may be doing something like that soon. We are looking for answers!

You need to simply commit to DO, to OBEY, what God commands even if, and especially if, you don't happen to "feel like" obeying. God IS LORD. God has the right to command and ours is NOT to refuse to obey. HE paid the price for us and when we accept Christ's sacrifice, we surrender the "authority" in our lives to Him.

That is the hard part. It requires a tremendous amount of dedication or perhaps someone who had that moment of mysticism ala St Theresa or St John of the Cross. These folks were in the presence of God 24/7 because they were special. I have only managed to feel that special a few times in my life and then it was for an instant. BTW, it was during Xmas.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I disagree with the notion that it "requires a tremendous amount of dedication or perhaps someone who had that moment of mysticism ala St Theresa or St John of the Cross. " Jesus was rather stern with His disciples when they said something similar. His response was concise and clear and took on their "reasoning" by human standards. Then the disciples came to Jesus in private and asked, "Why couldn't we drive it out?" He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you." (Matthew 17:19-21 NIV)

Stanley - Okay if you are "looking for answers" then you must already have some specific questions that you are seeking answers to. Can you formulate those questions into a list? That might help to be able to be a bit more specific in responses to you and possible answers.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay...someone does NOT become a Christian by being baptized, sprinkled, splashed, immersed, or whichever way. A person may "become" a Roman Catholic member that way, but not a Christian.

I do agree with you, but you fail to understand that in Catholicism those traditions are important. In fact, some Catholics would rather hear the priest say the mass in Latin (like the old days). All the traditions simply facilitate the connection with God. But, I agree with you, it can be done with no tradition at all.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No problem with tradition. I think it's an integral part of how we learn and express ourselves, and even maintain continuity. We all tend to be more "comfortable" in a church setting that reflects our own feelings about how best to worship God and our own preferences for some "styles" of worship. The main thing we all need to remember is to not let "style" get in the way of "substance."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The good thing is that I see hardly a difference between Catholicism and other Christian denominations. IMHO, the main difference is the emphasis on tradition one sees in RCA. Otherwise, everything else is more or less the same. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay, I'm going to be really careful here because I believe that there is a LOT of difference between Roman Catholicism and other denominations. But unless we want to diverge into a theological discussion of the "tenets" of the various faiths and/or denominations, I don't think it's a good idea to go off on that tangent in this thread.

Suffice it to say that not all "traditions" are necessarily founded upon biblical truth. They were started by "man," sometimes in response to what is clearly revealed in Scripture and sometimes for less "clear" reasons. An example, if you will, would be the 95 Thesis of Martin Luther and his specific "problem" with the selling of indulgences. There ARE a few "traditions" that were started by Jesus, such as the Great Commission, Communion in remembrance of Him, and how to pray directly to the Father. But most "traditions" are the "trappings" of man.

Good traditions are founded upon Scripture and "defensible" by Scripture. Other traditions are "nice" and don't cause any problems. Latin versus English would be an example as would be a "preference" for the poetry of the KJV version over a more modern language translation of the Scripture. Some traditions are clearly against what the Scripture teaches and reveals, and are usually founded upon something "made up" by man. Those we have to be very careful about because they could even entail "heresy" that could lead someone astray from the truth.

Regardless, everything needs to be "tested" against the Scripture to determine if it is "from God" or "of man." That "testing" helps to keep traditions that are in keeping with God's revelation and in discarding those traditions that have "strayed" from God.

I suppose the most relevant example would be something like the "tradition" in early times where the reading of the Scripture was "reserved" for the clergy. I'm sure that it began from a need for someone who was educated enough to first be able to read, and then to be able to clearly interpret and teach what was IN the Bible.

But the Bible was never intended for just a "select few" to read. It was intended for all to read for themselves. Granted, there are some things that more difficult than others to understand and there are some things that the Bible is NOT clear and definitive about. So more study is indicated when faced with something like that. But most of those things have nothing to do with HOW one receives salvation. They tend to be more like a discussion of whether there will be a pre, mid, or post tribulation rapture. However God chooses to call us home is somewhat irrelevant. But we don't get called home unless we are saved by belief in Jesus Christ.

So, I guess what I am saying is that I am more interested right now in the specific questions that you might be seeking answers to, rather than a theological debate or discussion.

God bless.

I should give an update on us........Since JLs last post, several days ago, things are going much better. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

We are giving each other SF almost everynight and my husband is very,very happy. He does not get moody or depressed. We are also cuddling a lot before we get up in the morning. Now ,I really think that we are the in the "true road" of our marriage.

I am hoping that everything will be getting better and better!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
We are more normal interacting with each other (I think).
I am very positive in the way we are going now.

Thank you all for your great advice and support.!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

MYRTA