If no one knows, they need to know.
And you should tell your wife that you are o longer keeping this a "secret".

You guys have been VERY helpful, which makes me even more determined to get the facts straight!
And I was guilty of starting a new thread for this, which is why you don't know my whole story... BUT I thought I was doing a good thing by isolating what I thought would be a simple question. Sorry to have made things so confusing!

Me 44, WW 41. Married 21 years, together 24.
No children.
EA started about a year ago, PA started about 9 months ago, though there was NC for a period of time.

WW moved out 7 weeks ago.

I followed DB (not MB) principles for a long time, which is why I've had no solid Plan A/B.

WW has been trying to keep the fact that she moved out a secret at work. Only WW's best friend/co-worker and a couple others even know WW moved out. WW says "she's embarrassed about people knowing (that she moved out)."

I exposed AFFAIR to WW's best friend/co-worker AND WW/OM's boss last week.
The friend/co-worker will probably let stuff leak out to others over time.
The boss offered to give WW the email I sent him, but otherwise pretty much is saying he doesn't want to be involved.

Her family and my family have known for months.

That's it. It's been exposed to one friend/co-worker, their boss, and my/her family. OM/OMW are divorced as of last month.

Now -- WW's emotional state is NOT good.
I believe depression... ALSO, she is extremely volatile, over-reactive, has a paranoid streak in her. She is also VERY proud, VERY stubborn, and is quite adept at holding a grudge. Uhhh... I'm not making her sound so good, am I...!

We're teetering on the brink of PERMANENT separation. Some things she says/does go in that direction, other little hints here and there suggest that she still has NO clue what she's doing. No mention of the "D" word, ever.

Her JOB is just about all she has left, at this point. Exposing the affair at work could crush her/put her over the edge. I don't want a crushed wife back. I care about her well-being first and foremost. My family is saying "if you want to save your marriage, further exposing the affair at work is NOT going to do it." Believe me, I don't always take their advice <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> , but I do agree with them this time.

I hope I've painted the correct picture here, so that SOMEone out there understands why I just CAN'T get myself to go the "full exposure" route.

Comments appreciated... thanks for being patient thru all the confusion I've created in this thread.

tqt,

Just a quick note.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exposing the affair at work could crush her/put her over the edge. I don't want a crushed wife back. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is EXACTLY what you want to do IF you truly love her. WS's rarely get turned UNTIL they apppear to go "over the edge". Remember that a well meaning family is almost always an impediment to the M at this time.

Gotta run.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Exposing the affair at work could crush her/put her over the edge. I don't want a crushed wife back.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That is EXACTLY what you want to do IF you truly love her.

Thanks Cymanca.
Doesn't it depend on what "the edge" means?
And doesn't it depend on all sorts of other things, eg. the emotional health of the wayward spouse being exposed?
And yes, I DO truly love my wife.


Remember that a well meaning family is almost always an impediment to the M at this time.

In this case I'm trying to figure out what the well meaning family would normally be doing:
"get away from her, move on, you deserve better..." (ie. protecting me)
or
"you shouldn't expose the affair at her job, it will be devastating to her..." (ie. keeping the waves to a minimum, preventing further hurt, etc)

My family -- believe me -- is looking out for me and what they feel is best for me.
At the exact same time, they do not want me to inflict any unnecessary pain on my wife, knowing that a) she's gotten herself into a very deep hole, and b) her job is just about all she has left.

I guess it's all about love and empathy and all that fun stuff, in the midst of a really terrible, painful, sad situation... in other words, when it counts the most. (not that it's doing me or my marriage any good, I'll grant you that!)

Just another thought:

1. As for what her boss is suppose t/d with the info, well let him know he has been notified in case his area of responsibility gets affected. You are simply warning him out of respect. You didn't have that courtesy extended to you and you realize that as a manager, it is helpful to know ahead of time which part of one's organization c/b falling apart so that help can be setup or a backup plan c/b put in place.

RE: It is just a matter of when that her work w/b affected.

2. As for your W falling apart, she will do this no matter what you do......so the best thing is to do what you need for your recovery. She will have to deal with the fallout but that is her issues, not yours and right now you can't control her issues anyway.

JMHO,
L.

Thanks Orchid!
I should mention that the "boss" is the company president.
As far as WW falling apart goes, she's in a very high-profile position. AND in a position that is going to make this affair look particularly inappropriate. (Can't come up with a better way to say that.) My point being, she's just in the absolute worst situation she could be in (exposure-wise), as far as her reputation (and fallout) goes.
Yikes...I shouldn't try to do this without coffee....

I came up with a couple lame-but-good-enough excuses to call my wife last night. Her phone was busy for quite a while, and it was late, so I just KNEW she was on the phone with OM. That made me keep trying, and made me want to talk with her even more, naturally.
I felt myself getting desperate, etc..... called her cell phone, no answer, and then 30 seconds later called her home phone again, and lo and behold, she answered. (Did she hear her cell phone, think it was me trying to reach her, and abruptly end call with OM, perhaps?? Wishful thinking...)

Anyway, we talked for what seemed like a LONG time (for us), and I hung up feeling SHE'S MINE TO LOSE!!!!

It FEELS like this thing is ready to turn definitively one way or the other, and it feels like time is of the essence in order to sway it in my direction, and I feel like I'm in a panic trying to figure out what to do!

Like I said, I felt desperate before the phone call, so I couldn't hold back the R talk, but I did do a fairly decent job of remaining calm, cool, etc. At least she responded with more information than ANY OTHER CONVERSATION we've had in a LONG time, and she sounded LUCID for a change. (Does that in itself mean something?)

Wish I could remember everything she said, but here's some of it, in random order....
Comments VERY much appreciated.

Said she was in a "funk." Last Friday she said "I'm just not happy."

Asked her what she meant when on Friday she said "Nothing I've done can be undone."
She said "well, the family scuttlebutt, for one thing." (ie. what my family knows/thinks of her/etc)

She said "once you leave you can't go back, right?"

In reference to whether or not she knew what she was doing, had a plan, etc., she said "I obviously wouldn't be doing all these things if I was sure..." MEANING, all the things she's done/said which have demonstrated her ambivalence/doubts/fence-sitting, etc.

Mentioned her "holiday dilemma"

Asked what HIS intentions are, she said "I'm not 100% sure."

Asked whose idea it was for their 3-day weekend out of town (week before last). She said "his idea."

She said something about "the whore list" (at work), ie. being on it, or afraid she'd be on it, etc.


H E L P !!! Am I over-reacting to the urgency that I feel? Is she ready to make a move that she CAN'T undo?
Is exposure now going to be the thing that sends her into OM's arms for good, if she's close to making some sort of decision?
It FEELS like I should continue with the "pressure" (ie. R talk, pursuing, reasoning with her, all that stuff), but I don't know!!!

tqt

I have an opinion form my woen experience regarding exposure.

I think priority exposures would be to people with a stake in ending the affair.

This would be OPs spouse, THEN selective WS family & friends.

The purpose is to effect a rapid end to the affair. If they become 'gossip' to non-judgmental co-workers I do not see that this will be particularly effective in stopping the affair. Remember than many or most folks are neutral regarding infidelity, IME anyway.

And it will be difficult when your W comes BACK to you as she will have a bad reputation to recover when she feels bad enough about herself.

I'm with Cy on further workplace exposure.

Do not deny her the cleansing opportunity that comes with a crash.

If she doesn't crash, she will be in a "funk" for a long time. This is the state I believe my XW is in - married to OM and trying to put a good face on it all, fooling no one.

But, where exactly are YOU?

Plan B?

If you decide to NOT expose her to the whore list, then cut her adrift. You had a good conversation with her on the phone, now send her a REAL Plan B letter and go completely dark. She won't have you as a stable referrence (your role in the phone conversation) and she will HAVE to find her own way, relying on OM, thereby risking her own placement on "the list."

Either way - further exposure or a real Plan B - you have to allow her to crash. Period. In fact, you may not be able to prevent it at all. Only she can prevent it if she miraculously wakes up right away.

This will be her doing, not yours. Your Plan B letter will make it clear that you will be her rescuer - as soon as she gives up her affair.

AND - either she or OM will have to lose their job. But this may be inevitable, no matter what happens or what you do from this point forward.

WAT

Thanks Bob, thanks WAT,

Bob, this seems to fit my situation:
"The purpose is to effect a rapid end to the affair. If they become 'gossip' to non-judgmental co-workers I do not see that this will be particularly effective in stopping the affair. Remember than many or most folks are neutral regarding infidelity, IME anyway."

I having trouble reconciling the fact that the only "exposees" left are co-worker-friends that will not be all that effective in stopping the affair, so all I'd be doing is providing a few people with fodder for their own entertainment.

And WAT, you ask where *I* am. I guess I'm in Plan A.
My wife has definitely gotten warmer over the 1-2 weeks, and in trying to figure out what I may have done/not done to contribute to that, all I can come up with is that I've actually been more of a pursuer, telling her that I still love her and want to rebuild our marriage.
Something SEEMS to be "working" and if the status quo is in fact drawing her closer, why would I want STOP doing what's working and try something different?

I get an impression that she COULD be ready to fall off the fence. If I Plan B her now, I can really see her falling the wrong direction.
If I expose now, I can see her not only falling in the wrong direction, but landing on her head in the process.
If OM/WW are exposed, they may as well just go on with the relationship, perhaps??? OM is definitely pressuring her to climb into his nest. He may have already decided that he'll deal with exposure when it comes.

MelodyLane said "show her the path to come home." (I'm paraphrasing a bit) The idea being show her a safe place to land, as I've read here many times. I can't figure out how any huge LB's would be showing her that path home(?) Or how blowing up her reputation at work makes me appear as a safe place to land(??)
She seems to be looking for an out... a way out of the mess, and of course wants to come out of it as unscathed as possible.

After last night's phone call, it ALMOST seems like she's just waiting/wanting for me to say "I want you to come home."
She KNOWS I want her to come home, but I haven't SAID that. I HAVE said that I want to rebuild our marriage. A woman friend of mine is suggesting that my wife may just need to HEAR THE WORDS.

Bottom line is, I'm a mess..........

tqt - I follow your logic and you may be right that further work place exposure by you at this moment may not be the best course - unless it is. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> That's the trouble with these decisions - it's very hard to predict which way the WS will fall, if at all.

If you feel positive vibes fromo her, by all means stick with a pristine Plan A. Write her a Plan A letter - this is the same as a Plan B love letter without the "I'm going dark" punch line. A copy of that letter can get sent to OM and any member of the families to clearly communicate your desires for your marriage.

When she stagnates in any progress towards you, then you slam on Plan B. Sudden, hard, cold reality.

Got it?

WAT

WAT, thanks... VERY MUCH.

See any problem with not sending a copy of my Plan A letter to OM, but instead a

"I love my W, and intend to do whatever it takes... expect you to back away...blah blah"

message to him instead?

In my opinion, not sending a copy of the Plan A letter to OM is OK as long as you communicate to him somehow - in writing - that you are trying to save your marriage and you expect him to back off. This is the same concept of sending a copy of the Plan B letter to the OP - as described in SAA.

Keep in mind that the concept of a Plan A letter is not mentioned in the MB literature. But many MBers independently have come to the same idea of creating one.

WAT

Here's a hypothetical situation (which by coincidence seems to resemble mine, but I'll leave it hypothetical, in case I'm misreading things <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

WW moved out 7 weeks ago.
In last 1-2 weeks, she's warming up.
Four days ago said "I'm just not happy."
Last night said "Once you leave, you can't go back, right?"
Today's my birthday (yeehaa!) and first thing this morning left a Happy Bday message on my ans machine.
Made a special trip at lunchtime to drop off a card and present (she knew I wouldn't be home).
Card said "Love, dog_1_name, dog_2_name, W's name." (dogs are our "kids" for better or worse)

OK, here's the question: at what point, in a rough Plan A, with the above scenario, can one safely say "I love you, and I want you to come home."

Any time? How many strikes against me are there if the timing is somehow wrong? Am I losing my mind and that's why I'm overanalyzing this stuff??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

RIGHT NOW!! On your birthday!

You feel this way, right?

And make sure you comunictae to her that she CAN turn back to her marriage.

"Every passing moment is an opportunity for a complete turnaround."

WAT

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by tqt:
<strong>Am I losing my mind and that's why I'm overanalyzing this stuff???</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You're not losing your mind, but many BSs - myself included - tend to over analyze.

Remember, the term "analyze" begins with "anal."

WAT

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by tqt:
<strong> ....She said something about "the whore list" (at work), ie. being on it, or afraid she'd be on it, etc.


H E L P !!! Am I over-reacting to the urgency that I feel? Is she ready to make a move that she CAN'T undo?
Is exposure now going to be the thing that sends her into OM's arms for good, if she's close to making some sort of decision?
It FEELS like I should continue with the "pressure" (ie. R talk, pursuing, reasoning with her, all that stuff), but I don't know!!! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">tqt,

As for the list, let her know she probably is at the top since this info is steaming. The shame of it could melt the A a bit.

As for 'undo' options, well it is always an option until you or her call it quits and even then there have been cases of remarrying. Of course at that time the BS has to decide if they really want the WS back in their lives.

So right now, there is more in your favor than in hers. Stear clear of the fog babble jargon and learn to reverse babble to lessen the impact of her hurtful and sometimes manipulative statements and actions.

JMHO,
L.

RIGHT NOW!! On your birthday!

WAT, thanks, and I just may get up the nerve this evening to hear a potential "NO," when I tell her that what I REALLY want for my birthday is HER.


Stear clear of the fog babble jargon and learn to reverse babble to lessen the impact of her hurtful and sometimes manipulative statements and actions.

L,
There doesn't seem to be as much fog babble now.
I guess I'm not sure how to interpret (read: over-ANALyze) that.

On another note, and one that throws a whole different light on things... a woman friend of mine just told me that everything I've told her about my wife sounds very familiar. She went thru a lot of the same thing herself, and in her case it turned out to be depression, with a capital "D" She started medication, and black turned into white almost overnight...
This friend was adamant about the fact that virtually nothing is solvable until my W gets some help (and AD's).
The depression factor has come up over the last 10 months, but the IC/MC's that my W talked to didn't pursue it, and my W has always refused to accept that she needed any kind of medication.

Anyway, thinking "depression" makes me want to do two things as I navigate thru this:
Stay away from things that will hurt her (ie. further exposure!), if at all possible.
And, try to get her home where she IS safe and together we can get her the help she needs.
Sounds easy, doesn't it? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Thanks for listening.....

TQT,

Maybe depression is a factor. Regardless of what is the underlying cause, until she is ready to accept help, you can't force it down her throat no matter how good it is for her.

This mental health stuff is hard to handle. Most of it's patients are far from cooperative.

In addition to denial, the physical, financial and emotional aspects are playing out in destructive roles. That is why the BS must protect what he/she can.

A pill or therapy isn't the complete answer. Even if she were medicated, she would still have to deal with reality.

Incorporating both practices (counseling and treatment) have often proven sucessful. Right now the best thing you can do is strengthen yourself. Then when she is ready to come back to reality you will be in a stronger position to help. You can't help her up if your legs are still wobbly.

Imho,
L.

TQT,

How long have you been in Plan A? How have you behaved towards her since you found out about the affair?

What would happen if you started calling her up and flirting with her? How would she react? What if you asked her out on a date?

What need did the OM meet for her?

And why can't you tell her that you love her and want her to come home? What bothers you about saying that?

Well... yesterday things were looking up.

W dropped off a birthday present at the house sometime during the day.

Only problem was that, in an effort to call and thank her, I had to trace her down to OM's place at 12:15AM. Sorta puts a damper on the whole thing, ya know?!

OM answered the phone, acted like a spineless dweeb and pretended not to know anything about my wife. All I was asking him was to tell me where my wife was. Didn't get anywhere with him, so I told him "You and I will be having a conversation tomorrow" and then he hung up on me. (yeah, I'm sure I had the right dweeb)

No 2x4's, please. Even if I deserve 'em <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Called my wife at HER place 45 minutes later (guess my phone call lit a fire under her to get out of OM's place(?)), and predictably, she tried to lie her way out of the whole thing...
Yes, I was wound up by that time, but I controlled my anger well. She said after OM hung up the phone with me, he "didn't say anything for two minutes -- he was freaked out."
Told her that because of the way she's been handling everything, there isn't much else I can do at this point except to encourage her to talk to someone (ie. counseling). (She has said a couple times, including last night, that she's been thinking about it.)

So as a result of that, here's my bottom line, at least for the next 30 minutes or so...

I'm emailing their boss one more time today, telling him 1) a few odd details of the A so he understands it's real 2) I have my W's personal well-being at the top of my priority list, 3) I'm serious about trying to save my marriage. 4) I don't want to bother him with this any more, and I appreciate his blah blah blah.

Then I'm emailing OM at work, copying their boss.
OM may/may not show email to W. If he does, she won't be fun to be around for a while. Uh...she's not fun to be around anyway, so...

Then I'm laying low. I think.
Either I need to go into to some semblance of Plan B VERY soon, or muster up the energy and courage to attempt further/continued Plan A.

I AM running out of steam, which I also told her last night. She's digging herself in deeper and deeper. At the same time, though I feel myself getting stronger in a lot of ways, she's still ripping my heart out -- whatever's left of it.
I gotta save some of it for later, right?

Thanks for listening again... much appreciated.