I want to send everybody a little note saying, do you like me, circle yes, or no.

KY, I can actually see you doing this too! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> But you know what?... that is part of your charm, you are an "innocent". And as long as you can stand up for yourself, so what? Being nice is not a crime.

However I read what you wrote about your inability to say no to OM, and that ticked me off. It's a wonder ST doesn't want to kill that jerk. Or maybe he does. I always wondered what would prompt someone like you into an act of deception like that.

For me, I got to a point in my life that I had been through so much and had suffered so much that it ceased to matter to me what other people think of me. I truly don't care anymore. I know what I have lived through and I know who I am and that I have a big heart. I think part of it comes from having faith in yourself also. Knowing that you mean only the best, and also an acceptance that it is okay that someone out there somewhere is not going to like you. Usually it would come from THEIR fear and insecurity though, and not a refection of you.

And with Pep (if you are reading), you used to intimidate me a bit, but the more I read from you I see a certain compassion that comes out at some point in all of your convo's, sooner or later. So you don't scare me anymore. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

PEPPER- I must admit I was one of those , that you refer to in one of your previous posts here, I was in conflict with your oppinons,of course they were right, but I did not want to admit it yet.
You are a very strong woman, when you state your oppinions, and I imagine thats your personality. I think its good to be that way, you firmly believe everything you say.
I admire you for that!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
What you say about not caring what anyone thinks to form one's oppinion,its a really good motto to have in life!! I should apply it to myself!!

Thanks !

MYRTA

weaver:

"And with Pep (if you are reading), you used to intimidate me a bit, but the more I read from you I see a certain compassion that comes out at some point in all of your convo's, sooner or later. So you don't scare me anymore."

At least you didn't call her "nice." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
-ol' 2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yes! An affair, which I call an unethical attempt to fix something in a marriage - is another way to avoid conflict. Rather than addressing up front the stuff that needs to be fixed in the marriage the WP chooses to feel better by becoming involved with someone else.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ouch, the truth really hurts. Cerri, that was a good point you made. I always considered my H the conflict avoider when the truth is we both are. He asked me after dday last week why I never came to him before having the A? You know I never knew how to approach him directly. I have always been a people pleaser and peace maker until I get frustrated and then BLOW! These past several days have been the most painful times for me because I have had to face myself truly in the mirror. It isn't always pretty but I am starting to gain just a bit of integrity. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I have avoided so much that I have avoided myself! I truly never look at myself even when I do my hair or makeup. I couldn't, was afraid of what I would see.

Great thread everyone. Pep, you are great at asking the right questions!

At least you didn't call her "nice."

Well now that you mention it 2long, I didn't, did I? I don't believe that descriptive ever even entered my mind.

Oh well, still not scared. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />


And yes, I agree this is a great thread! Although I am not a conflict avoider, I do feel a certain impatience with that breed, so it helps to understand where they are coming from.

Pep - It's also called "external referencing."

*I* statements are statements that accurately reflect your reaction to what is going on in your life. They are about you and not about someone else - although they certainly can (and should) describe your internal reaction (emotion) to someone else's actions.

I want to slap you - then becomes I'm irritated when xyz happens.

I hate you - although hate is certainly an emotion it's more a judgment - I'd rather see a statement about the action or choice that triggered the extreme feeling.

I think you're stupid - is a judgment about someone else's mental ability. It's a thought/opinion and not a feeling/emotion.

As I said in one of my first posts - attempting to solve marital conflict by using opinions and logic as the basis for making decisions is bound to spiral downward into disrespect and arguments. Some people can do it well but those are the ones who already know how to have the feelings conversations and to work from a cooperative place rather than an adversarial postion.

C

Cerri,

With "I" statements regarding how you feel when someone does something, such as lie -

How would you state those without also including a DJ.

"I feel very hurt and scared when you lie to me."

How would you say it in a way which deflects the automatic defensiveness which would come from calling someone a liar, ie "when you lie to me" ?

That's where I get stuck in trying to convey my feelings when I think someone is not being honest.

Peppergirl,

I'm with you chere.
I don't give a rat's pattootie if anybody likes me.
I'm not here to be popular.
I'm here to make a difference,
see progress,
and sometimes,
that means making waves.
That's what floats my boat.

<small>[ November 23, 2004, 04:16 PM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

What a great thread Pep, I have learned even more about myself today. It was really great to see what some of you thought about conflict avoiders, a real eye opener.

Weaver, my ST actually tried to inflict bodily harm on OM. Luckily, for my ST, OM ran. (lucky only because he would have gotten in trouble with the law)

<small>[ November 23, 2004, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: kyellow4 ]</small>

weaver:

""I feel very hurt and scared when you lie to me.""

Let me take a whack at this one, because it's a very close 2 home problem for ME.

I've called my W a liar before, but not since a very long time ago. Met the angry outburst blame deflection reaction every time. Even now, I can't get my W 2 agree on the "correct" definition of secrecy versus privacy - the reason for the remaining chasm between us 2day. Her "relationship" with OM is a private matter between the 2 of them, not my business.

So, I would word that particular "I" statement like this (and I have done so many times):

"I feel very hurt that you haven't been honest *and* truthful with me."

Accurate and precise, because honesty is about her feelings (she is honest with me) whereas truthfulness is about relaying important facts about her life 2 me that affect me and her family (she isn't forthright about her "personal" life beyond her family).

She was "hurt" (understandably so) when I once called her a "liar, cheat, and a thief". Interestingly, the "thief" label bothered her the most for the longest time.

It hasn't been easy for me 2 find ways 2 get the same points across about how I feel about her behavior without LBing but still being truthful and honest. I find the "I" statements hard 2 keep in mind. I guess that's obvious, or I'd be fully recovered long before now.

-ol' 2long

2Long~~~

What a change you've made in yourself these past 2 years.

I am officially impressed!

Pep

"I feel very hurt that you haven't been honest *and* truthful with me."

I don't know 2long. I have to ponder this for awhile because I fail to see the difference between "honest" and "truthful". Although I do see that the words themself are kinder and less likly to bring on defensiveness as the word "liar" is.

How about "I feel hurt when I feel that total honesty has not been shared with me". Then you would have 2 " I feels" in there, as opposed to 1 "I feel" and 1 "you". And you would have completely deflected the dreaded "you, you, you" blame thing.

Oh for heavens sake, why does it have to be this hard just to get the dang truth out of someone!

weaver,

I feel hurt when honesty is incomplete or not "transparently" truthful.


If he asks you what "transparent" means....all the better.

<small>[ November 23, 2004, 05:22 PM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

Pep:

Thanks!

But the truth (there's that word, again!) is that we don't have conversations like this pretty much AT ALL at my house. I wish we did.

I'm getting better at not caring what people think of me, even my W. But I do still like 2 be liked, and I really do love 2 be loved. I think I must still need 2 appreciate myself a bit more.

...along those lines: When I was in DC last week, my hotel room had a big mirror right over the desk. I like 2 work at my computer in my underwear in my room alone, and so the mirror wasn't much of an issue (I was staring at the computer screen).

But you know? My W called me back after I'd left a message for her, and I had the hardest time sitting there staring at myself talking 2 her on the phone.

...something for ME 2 think about... ...I think.

-ol' 2long

weaver:

I'm sure I've posted this 2 you before, but in case I haven't, it's something that Spacecase put on our iloveulove.com/resources website a 2ple years back:

"The Difference Between Truth and Honesty:

Truth is empirical, demonstrable fact. Your bank balance, today’s date, whether or not you’re married.

Honesty is about feelings. If you’re honest, you are open and clear about how you feel. You can be truthful without being honest and you can be honest without being truthful (the latter a little more difficult). The best relationships, stating the painfully obvious, are both truthful and honest. Trust is built on both truth and honesty, tempered by the proof of predictability and reliability."

-ol' 2long

I feel hurt when honesty is incomplete or not "transparently" truthful.

I like that Star*fish. And you can bet he will ask what "transparently" truthful means, as he never even graduated high school. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

And at work when a staff member tells me an untruth such as "I didn't know, nobody told me" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> I could say "I feel concerned when honesty is incomplete".

Yes, I like that...thank you.

In all honesty 2long, I don't believe you did post that to me before.

I will post it to my cyber notebook and think on it however, because truthfully it floats above me and I can't quite grasp the concept of it yet. But not to worry, I will.

How's that? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thank you 2long!

Well first you have to define whether or not a lie has been told or if you suspect that the other person is not being truthful. Those are two different things and therefore there would be at least two different *I* statements.

If you've caught someone in a bold faced lie - they're standing there with Thursday's pumpkin pie smeared on their cheek and whipped cream on their nose and the pie plate shows definite signs of destruction but they deny knowing "what happened" to the dessert you prepared for company - the the statement is "I'm really unhappy when you tell me one thing and I can clearly see that it is not the case."

But if the pie is gone and you suspect that they were the one who had it but there is no direct evidence then the statement is "I'm confused by the discrepancy between what this looks like and what you're telling me."

C

Although the more I think about it the more I like the second statement regardless of what the evidence seems to be. In the case of the pie, it could be that your spouse caught the cat on the counter licking away at dessert and in the tussle to wrest the pie away from the cat ended up with pie and whipped cream on his/her face.

Yeah - I think calling someone a liar is not a good idea. I like just saying, "I'm confused about the discrepancies I'm seeing." It would, of course, be fine to point out what those were as long as you can do so without accusing, blaming, or name calling.

C

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by kyellow4:
and does it cause problems??? Seriously asking. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YES!!! My timing is not always good. I tend to force a discussion on my time, when I am ready without regard for when my H is ready. I am working on this.

Pep