CSue, I feel the same way <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

2long & Cerri, I think I am beginning to see, and this is quite important I think, in the way I view and react to "lies". To me lies have always been cut and dry.

IE., You tell me you are going to do something, and then don't = LIE. You leave information out that concerns any aspect of my life or our realtionship, or my ability to make a decision = LIE.

Now you are saying that there are lies, and then there are LIES. Private vs Secret & Honesty vs Truthfulness.

When making "I statements" and trying to resolve a relationship problem, I can see that it is important to understand all this, and I am really giving it a lot of thought. Still trying to grasp it and I think for me it warrants a lot of exploring.

Although I think I am ready to let him go in my heart, I have to resolve the part I played in the failure of our relationship. I never called him a thief, (thank goodness, you didn't give me that idea when he was still here 2long <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) "You're a LIAR" was usually the first words out of my mouth anytime we had an argument. And I can only imagine the ugly tone of voice which would have seethed from in between my clinched teeth. Yuck!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Shul:

When we start to talk about anything that might hint of rejection from me, he literally stands at the door with his coat on...

It is like trying to befriend a dog that has been treated cruelly. He comes a little close, then runs off, comes back- I get too close and he runs off again.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Soooo.... you stifle your honest feelings in order to protect your H.

Correct?

Protect him from what?

Here's what I suspect...His own feelings of inadequacy!

Not your job.

Pep

I have such a terrible problem with CONFLICT AVOIDANCE. It is like a thorn in my side. It's like my one last sin. I really, really struggle with this.... It has caused a major problem in my marriage. It still causes me to be dishonest. I will have to deal with this in order for my marriage to genuinely recover. This is an acknowledgement just like an alcoholic has to acknowledge a problem. I have even failed to read all of the replies on this topic because I have even wanted to avoid looking at the problem I have with this.

It has to do with my children. Part of the problem in my marriage has to do with me allowing the kids to disrespect my H. He felt devalued as a man and I would sabotage his participation in parenting in order to AVOID CONFLICT. I understand fully the basis of my problem, growing up with an alcoholic father, who emotionally abused me with his anger, not wanting my children to feel the pain I felt because of my father's uncontrolled rages, anything that looks like expressions of anger towards the children causes flashbacks/anxiety within me, therefore, I can 't stand for them to frustrated even in a healthy sense. This has created a mess. I believe it has crippled them. My marriage has recovered since the children have gone away to college but the problem swiftly returns when they come home. I'm sure it is a problem for the children in their lives because they do not handle frustration well at all and life is full of frustrations.

What can I do? I'm getting better but this is still a major problem.

My youngest son I think is well aware of my anxiety about conflict. He uses this to his advantage to get his way. He is getting better with recognition that I am changing. However, he continues to test the limits. A conflict may be brewing tonight which I have to LEARN TO EMBRACE/TOLERATE, right?

I hope some of you can help me with this.
PEP , the problem is curfew. On his last visit home from college, my son stayed out until 3AM, way past his given curfew of 1AM at the time. H wanted to sell his car since he did this two nights in a row. I made the old mistake of being vulnerable to my son's tearfulness... "how could you do this to me, etc." He promised to never do this again. Husband, who is now in love with me agaom, is himself again-out of the fog, went along with this. However, this is not necessarily good because this is our old pattern that got us into this fix in the first place.

Son comes home again for Thanksgiving. I give him a curfew of 12 last night. He comes home at 12:15. Notice I said I gave him a curfew. I was supposed to have discussed this with my H beforehand. I didn't. CONFLICT AVOIDANCE. Son fully expects to stay out until 1 AM tonight because the 12 curfew was because it was a work night for us. Him coming in wakes us up.

H wakes me up this morning and insists, old stuff, because of my CONFLICT AVOIDANCE he feels like he has to insist. He insists that my son have a curfew of 12 AM from now on. Well, that will cause A CONFLICT for a college-aged son who wants to spend time with his friends while at home. I KNOW. I KNOW. DON'T AVOID IT.

My, now loving husband who is more agreeable and more in line with the MB principles later comes to me and says by the time I am ready for work: WE WILL DISCUSS TOGETHER his curfew. H says this needs to be NEGOTIATED.

What is wrong with me? I don't even know what is appropriate to bring up in conversation with my H.
I want to give up on being a parent or just give in. I know, CONFLICT AVOIDANCE.

By the way, in the midst of me typing this post, my H came by to see me at my office. He brought me fruit as a gift, wanted me to walk him back out and kissed me as he left.

Can should I avoid conflict this evening or deal with it?? I know, I know......

Mimi...

Our son's last home visit, he ignored the midnight curfew and returned at 5 AM.

He is living in another state... by his choice. He did not pre-plan his budget, so he has no funds to travel back here. He asked for the $$ to fly home for the holidays... and we told him what our house rules would be.. and he told us how stupid and unreasonable our house rules are.

No $$ ... he can enjoy himself in the Utah snow.

And he is raging at us .."You never wanted me in the family"... "Why did you adopt me if you planned on abandoning me?"... you get the picture.

And as hard as it is for me... I am listening to my H... who says "NO WAY"... because we both know that bending the rules for him to disrespect us teaches him nothing about the real world.

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> you stifle your honest feelings in order to protect your H.

Correct?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmmm. Sometimes. Yes. I try not to judge him. I try to focus on his strengths, and not on his weaknesses.

But thats not exactly what I meant. I guess in our case its not even about fear of conflict so much as fear of intimacy in general. Because letting himself be loved is allowing himself to be vulnerable. If he is attached, he risks being rejected, whereas if he doesn't get close to anyone, he won't get hurt.

So if he does get attached- almost by accident- as with me (ooops too late), then he is constantly hypervigilent - waitng for the shoe to drop; for me to reject him any minute when I find out what he is really like, or change my mind, or who knows what...

So as he sees it, in any conversation (much less disagreement), no matter how mundane the topic - as he sees it , I could suddenly stand up and say THATS IT I am out of here and walk out of his life forever.

The fact that I haven't done that in 19 years NO MATTER WHAT he has said or done, doesn't seem to compute.

He doesn't get that I am here for good- sickness/health, rich/ poor, nice guy or as*****.


See the mess we are in?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Shul:

Because letting himself be loved is allowing himself to be vulnerable. If he is attached, he risks being rejected, whereas if he doesn't get close to anyone, he won't get hurt.

So if he does get attached- almost by accident- as with me (ooops too late), then he is constantly hypervigilent </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And... have you shared your feelings (with H) about this lack-of-intimacy-in-the-marriage situation? Have you told him how you feel about his hypervigilence?

Are you being honest with your H?

Pep

Cerri: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You break the cycle the same way you move a mountain with a tablespoon. One tiny little scoop (or step - or statement) at a time.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok. For us it is twofold. On the one hand I am trying to build a bridge to him, extending love, and he is slowly starting to cross it now, toward me.

So we are ready to start communicating from ground zero.

On the one hand we have all this stuff that he is hiding ( his safety net that is a trap in disquiseas I think of it) which I largely try to ignore when I am with him, but that gets in the way of communication somewhat. Its okay as long as I don't ask him anything about where he is or what he is doing and keep things here and now.

I figure in time , as we start to be able to relate and he learns to trust me, the old rotten supports will fall away.

He said to me "where do we start".

I don't know. We have some common ground- our daughter- so we focus on her when we are together mostly.

One teaspoon at a time is too slow, Cerri. Isn't there a way to speed things up?

I want to have it all out at once, like major surgery.

Pepperband,

I have tried. Part of him understands it, but he is still scared to risk it.

Over the past year he has kind of poked his head out and said something vulnerable once in a while, but I was too dense to catch it or know how to respond. For him I know that it was a huge risk, and I know it took alot of courage to do.

For all I am scared to talk for fear of rejction, for him it is infinitely harder. Crippling. And I know that. Its what I mean by walking on eggs. Not push him to get too close, but not reject him either, just sort of be available, hold out my hands offering food. Get bitten. Wait. Not pursue. If he takes the food, be still, don't react. etc.

My arms are tired.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Shul:
just sort of be available, hold out my hands offering food. Get bitten. Wait. Not pursue. If he takes the food, be still, don't react.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is not descriptive of a relationship that nourishes you ...

Who feeds you?

Pep

God.

I am sorry for threadjacking.

Pep,

I have such a hard time expressing myself, and when we do talk, it often comes out wrong.

This happened the other night when he was here, now I want to fix it, but I don't know the words.

He was feeling pressured to stay the night, I guess.

I said that I feel disrespected when he comes here uses the shower, sex and leaves.

But thats not really true. I feel sad when he leaves, not disrespected- but sad because I want more closeness, and for us to talk and be open, and frustrated that he doesn't trust me.


But that is not what I said.

He responded by saying he will have to find some other place to shower. He said from now on if I want sex I have to ask. He was hurt.

Today he has gone to buy stuff to fix the well at the house, presumably so he will be able to shower there.

(S***. I like it when he showers here.)

So how do I tell him what I meant without making it worse?

Maybe he and I should only talk on paper, so I can think before I speak.

Share your avoidance issues ...
What stops you from taking action or speaking up?

Fear of being hit or yelled at. My pop use to hit me when I disagreed with anything and if he didn’t hit me he would threaten to. To this day the biggest reason why I avoid any problems is because I am afraid I will be hurt.

What benifit(s) do you think you get by avoidance?

People think I am easy going and I don’t have any fights with people really.

What has conflict avoidance cost you?

True intimacy with my husband. I have done things that I was reluctant to do because I was afraid of saying no (again, flashbacks about being hit). I want to be liked but I think people just think I am a push over.

Funny, husband and I got into an argument this morning and I am still reeling over it. It was over a really small issue really but it has ruined my whole day because I am not use to speaking up. It’s a miserable feeling.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Shul:
He responded by saying he will have to find some other place to shower. He said from now on if I want sex I have to ask. He was hurt.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">hmmmmmmm

How do you know he was "hurt"?

Did he say "That hurts me"....?

Pep

Mimi ...

Hey, I'm not used to this, you mean I get to dispense advice for a change?

Okay, first of all....”It's like my one last sin.” If you conquer this one, you’ve reached perfection? I seem to remember a couple of weeks ago another “final struggle”...oh, well – my point is that I think every time we think we’ve got one area conquered, it’ll come back to haunt us. Be careful.

Okay, you and I both know that our pictures are in Webster’s next to “Conflict Avoiders”, so I understand. My W has always been much stronger willed than I, to the point of being belligerent and stubborn, so this has caused some (comparatively minor) issues for us in the past as well.

As you have obviously discussed this issue with Pep before, please let me ask you to look at Pep’s post. Therein you will see the key, albeit maybe hidden. Pep uses the terms “we”, “us”, “our”. However, you even refer to the kids as “my” children, “my” marriage, etc. Mimi....paradigm shift for you, now. You’re ½ of a team, nothing is “my”, it is “our”. Pep understands that well.

You and H must, absolutely must, present a united front to your kids. It is tantamount that you are seen as “the parents”, not as Mom and Dad with 2 different sets of rules and ideals. Sure, you will disagree, but that must be transparent to your kids. If your H says something you don’t agree with in front of the kids, sit there stoically until you are absolutely in private, and then battle it out if you must. You H should do the same for you, if he disagrees, your kids should never know it. We (W and I) avoided many battles by assuring that the other had not already issued the rule before discussing it with the boys. For example, if one of them went to W with a request that she thought I might had already addressed, she would simply say “What did your Dad say?”. That was the end. If she thought me unfair, it would get discussed later. If we needed to revisit and change the rules, we would re-appear (both of us) and say “WE have discussed this, and WE think maybe WE were wrong...”. etc.

What you have going for you is that your H is obviously not emotionally weak in this area the way you and I are. Put it on him, use that to your advantage. There is no need for you to face conflict with your kids over curfew, just tell them to see Dad. Period. You’re done.

I don’t agree that this is an area where you have to learn to embrace conflict (my opinion, only). Defer the conflict to your other resource. I know (because I’ve “seen” it) you can keep a stiff upper lip if you need to. Don’t listen to S’s tears and ranting.....a simple “What did your father say?” will suffice.

But.....

You must respect your H’s authority to make those calls. You may not always agree which is the lesser issue. The larger issue is parental unity and PROPERLY AVOIDING CONFLICT.

Sounds like you and H need to work on that “insist” thing, but that’s another story.

So sorry to hear about your alcoholic father and the pain it caused you. I’ve not been there.

Georgia

<small>[ November 24, 2004, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: Georgia Guy ]</small>

Sorry for the above threadjack...response to my friend Mimi.

<small>[ November 24, 2004, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: Georgia Guy ]</small>

I have to give my 2 cents worth here! Sorry - feel free to ignore me if I am out of line.

Although I would agree with you, that you feel sad when he leaves, I think you also have every right to feel disrespected when he stops by, showers, has sex, and then leaves. That is disrespectful behavior!
I know you miss him - I know you like it when he stops by - but you deserve to be treated with respect - and this is not it.

I do not think you said anything wrong. I think you spoke the truth, and he knows it. He wants to throw it back at you "I am hurt, you will have to ask for sex from now on, I will find some place else to shower" but IMO he knew he was treating you in a disrespectful manner, and knew that eventually you would call him on it, and he is jsut disappointed that it happened all ready.
I think this is classic conflict avoidance. Something was bugging you, so you finally spoke up, and then he reacted badly so you would like to take it all back, make it go away, and do anything to make him happy again. Right now you are telling yourself that "I should have said it better, with more love, I should have given it different words, I should have served this all up on a silver platter dressed like a french maid, etc."
You have EVERY right to speak your mind. You felt disrespected - it is ok to say that. He didn't like hearing those words. That is ok too. But that doesn't mean you have to take them back now. One thing Dr Phil always says, that I absolutely agree with: You teach people how to treat you.
Over the years you have taught your H that you will do anything to keep peace in the family. You will not confront him, you will simply keep quiet, and if he does get upset, you will do everything you can to take it back.
Now you are tying to teach him a better way. You want him to treat you with repect. It will take him a while to get used to it. It is different, but that is ok. It is better. Different is not always bad.

If I am out of line here, I hope Pep will come to the rescue. But I can see you trying to smooth things over at any possible cost, and I had to speak up for you (I recognize all the signs - I did this myself!!).
You are a child of God. You have value, and worth. You deserve to be treated with respect. God wants you to be loved, and cherished. Allowing your H to shower, have sex, and then leave is not treating you with respect. God wants better than that for you.

By the way - my above lecture was intended for Shul.

I know it looks like disrespect, smells like disrespect, tastes like disrespect, but that really isn't how I feel. I think it is in the eye of the beholder.

To be honest I have had so many people talk about boundaries that I think I was trying it on. It is only disrespectful if I need his respect in this way.


When he is here it is about giving, for me.

I feel frustrated that he isn't able to reciprocate by opening up to me, but only because he would find out that I am not going to hurt him and that it is safe to be himself with me.

I know my value. I am giving from a position of strength and self respect, if you will. My selfesteem isn't based on his treatment of me.

I don't know how to explain this.

ps: you are not out of line.
I need all the help and insight I can get here.

Pep, I guess he was hurt because he called and apologised the next morning for being 'an a******'.

I've been avoiding this thread - don't like conflict. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

There were two lines for men at the entrance to the Pearly Gates. One line was labeled, "Hen Pecked Husbands." The other, "Non-Hen Pecked Husbands." Hundreds lined up on the Hen Pecked side. Only one guy was in the Non-Hen Pecked line.

"Hey Pal!," someone yelled to the one guy, "whatcha doing in THAT line?"

"My wife told me to stand here."

WAT