</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Shul:
<strong>
Pep, I guess he was hurt because he called and apologised the next morning for being 'an a******'. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think he was "hurt"... I think your interpretation of his feelings speaks more of where you are coming from.

Was he irritated? Was he annoyed? Was he bored? Was he angry? Was he embarrassed?

See.... many more possibilities...

Why do you assume it is hurt?

Pep

Shul,

I have been reading your post since March I think. So many times I wanted to reach through this computer and throttle you. But reading here today, I have seen what a hell of a lady you really are. Now the only person I want to throttle is your husband (he has moved out of OW's house and is no longer involved with her, right).

I am starting to see things through your eyes a little bit more, I think. Like you, my strength has always come from GOD, except in my dark years when I forgot Him. To me God is my father, and my dad was my earthly dad.

I can't give any insight on boundaries and gaining respect from others, because those are skills I am too just learning.

My question to you, is your husband in IC of any type trying to work on his issues? Or are you shouldering the burden of his personal recovery on your shoulders alone? Has he expressed any willingness to work on his intimacy/trust issues yet? Or is part of your plan that he will get to that in time? Change yourself first, is that your plan?

Just curious, and also happy to see the progress you have made in this uphill climb so far.

Pep, no matter what it was disguised as I think at bottom it is fear of being hurt.

Weaver,

He has moved to the house, but he is still in contact with ow, and I was just now having a bad moment trying not to think about where he might be right now.

He has been in counseling for most of his childhood and several times since then.

He has been labeled as various disorders by the shrinks who could seem to agree and didn't much care. Their agenda was mainly to fix him so that he wouldn't stress out his adoptive parents.

The ones since then, who have heard his story have gotten this deercaughtintheheadlightsthisiswayovermyhead look.

Part of his problem was made worse by being forced to participate in an experimental psych program when he was in youth custody, (which has since been scrapped when most of the participants committed suicide or went to jail for murder.He is the only one left who is alive and not in jail for life according to one of the former guards.)

So he has had a bellyfull of IC.

The church we we turned to...the minister told me that he was a waste of time and I should divorce him. (Said minister being an adulterer who abandoned his wife, knocked up one of his previous flock, and married another one.) They shunned him. While I was asking for prayer for him al those years, it turned out they were all praying that I would leave him. They called each other with the good news when they heard that he left. They all think I should find a nice rich churchgoing man.

No balm in Gilead.

I am doing my best. 4 years in seminary, countless books, seeking God for 19 years for guidance and insight.
I mostly just cry out to God to heal him.

One day it will be worth it to see him whole.

My sorrow and regret is that it has been hard on our D's.

I think I should not thread jack here anymore. I apologise to everyone.

This is a great thread. I am currently separated from my CA husband. My question is, when you are dating and all over each other, having fun together and generally trying to please each other...how do you recognize a CA?

Does this make any sense? In the dating stage it seems that conflict is minimal and both parties are trying to make the relationship satisfactory for the other.

Surely I should have known my H. was a CA before I married him but I missed something. Are there red flags that are easily recognized?

To everyone who put themselves out here on this thread, thank you for your insight. I have learned so much.

Cerri

I can't find that piece you wrote about CA!! Somewhere on my hard drive! If someone else has it and can paste it here - it really helped me come out of the "CA Closet". I think awareness of being a CA helps in controlling it.

Which brings me to a confession. I think one reason I CA is because of the illusion of control. I pick and choose the conflict, the time, etc. Unfortunately I would also gunnysack all the conflict I avoided, then used it to justify "reacting" when I felt I was ready to attack.

Which fed the illusion that I wasn't a CA afterall - because I would slay those who I had been CAing with!

Fortunately, I don't allow myself to get away with this behavior anymore.

I know it looks like disrespect, smells like disrespect, tastes like disrespect, but that really isn't how I feel. I think it is in the eye of the beholder.

SHUL!!!!
Please read this again. Honey - if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it is a duck, and it doesn't matter who is beholding it!!!
Would you please run to the nearest bookstore and buy "Women Who Love Too Much?". If you can't find it let me know and I will gladly mail you my copy. I am not saying that the book will cure all that ails you, but at least it may help you see some of the typical patterns followed by Women Who Love Too Much, and continue to hope that they can fix past hurts by fixing the man who is in their life right now.
Please, over the next few days, would you give thought to the possiblity that you truly are being treated with disrespect, that you are truly allowing this man to be unkind to one of Gods own children?
Please look at the bigger picture. Right now it would be easy to say "for today, I want to feel better. I want to fix what is wrong right now. so I will tell him that I didn't mean to accuse him of being disrespectful. I will tell him that it is MY issue, MY problem. That I don't communicate well, and I am trying to fix it. That I know HE is hurting, and I only meant to tell him that I am sad when he leaves.
And what is that supposed to accomplish? Will it take you back to the former situation - shower,sex,leave? Probably. Is that really an acceptable life? for ever? For today, maybe. But forever?
Look at the bigger pictue. What do YOU want? A loving husband, who has a desire to spend time with you? Who talks to you, listens to you, showers, and stays? You aren't going to get it by maintaining the current status quo.
If you continue to do what you have always done, you wll continue to get the same resluts.

Shul - God loves you. You have value. He wants so much more for you. This is all true. Please, listen to that.

If your dauther, or your best friend, were telling you a similar story- of how they were willing to tolerate small amounts of time with their husband, thinking it was better than nothing at all, what would you say to them?

I probably won't be on the computer again until Monday, but I will lift you up in prayer. I feel, in my heart, that you are at a crossroads. Take some time to be still and know that he is God. And know that he wants so much more for you than what you are currently getting.

P.S.
Shul-
Just in case you are sitting there telling your self "thats easy for her to say - she clearly has her act together. she is confident in herself - I am not."
Let me assure you that the reason I can read your mind is becuase I have walked your walk.
When my H left I told everyone who would listen "It is all my fault, I should have known he was unhappy, I should have sensed it, I was too fat, too boring, I should have showered him with attention more."
People would look at me like my hair was on fire and say "you cooked every day, cleaned up after him, told him you loved him everyday, you were faithful, and kind. You had sex on a regular basis, you watched football when he wanted to, and you were always faithful. You are a size 8, and you are well travelled. You are not fat or boring, or mean spiritied in any way. And yet, you are telling me that his affair is your fault? Are you nuts? And my response was "you don't understand, I was not the perfect wife, I could have been better, should have been better. If only I had been a better wife the boys would still have their dad. You don't know what a bad wife I was because it is all in the eyes of the beholder.

Does any of that sound familiar?

WoF,

I am not blaming myself for his sins.

I am not excusing them or denying them.

And of course I know that his treatment of me is not how God wants his children to be treated. No more than he wanted to see his own Son mistreated and abused.
(Neither does he want a child to be mistreated in the way that my husband was).

But love by its nature requires sacrifice. It is what we are all learning here- to respond to hatred with love. Forgiveness for example, means bearing the debt ourselves. Sacrifice.


I choose to respond in the way that I do, in obedience to Jesus' instructions to bless those who curse me, to pray for those who despitefully use me, etc.

The object is not judgement and condemnation, but redemption.

We are called to love, and to leave the judgeing to God.

And giving pleasure to my husband is a sacrifice of love that I freely give.

(Except where there is a risk of bringing a child into a relationship where there is not committment, which is not love).

Shul

Shul,

While I understand what you are saying..I really get the feeling that a lot of this is Shuls desires costumed in Gods desires.

Reason? You are not following the directive to first rebuke..then turn away from [while praying for] someone who is actively sinning.

Allowing your H to use you for sex or ..heck, to use you at all is not doing him any favors..and may well be getting in Gods way. Maybe God would like him to experience some consequences..it truly is the best motivator of change there is. As it is..you are helping him carry on a life that is lost. You are giving him just enough rope to hang himself with, and you are doing it because you..SHUL..do not want to let go.

Have you given any consideration to this possibility?

Noodle

Csue - is this the one you mean? I pulled it off my blog **edit**.

C

Musing on Marriage ~ Whatever It Takes
© **edit**

Wherever people gather to discuss marriages in crisis there is a plaintive refrain heard over and over again. Spoken sometimes with force and determination, sometimes in whispers of dying hope, and sometimes, many times, in fear and pain and sadness, “I’ll do whatever it takes to save my marriage.”

It’s quite easy to say and infinitely more difficult to carry out. What most people mean when they say they’ll do, “whatever it takes,” is that they’ll do whatever is within range of their comfort zone of familiar and safe. Ask them to step out of that zone into a place of counter intuitive actions and the refrain quickly changes from “whatever it takes,” to “I can’t.”

I understand the fear of moving out of the familiar. It’s challenging even in neutral or joyful situations. But when the situation facing us is one of destruction and loss we cling to the familiar like a life preserver. Only we can’t see that the life preserver has a slow leak and rather than being a tool of preservation will eventually sink us. We need to let go of the familiar but ineffective and reach for the unknown if we are to be successful at the business of saving a marriage.

I wrote about this recently in a public forum and someone asked me what I consider “whatever it takes” looks like. It was a welcome invitation to put together my thoughts on a subject near and dear to my heart. This is what I believe about being able to say one has done everything possible.


I expect that people will first and foremost stop the destructive things they are doing. If they have anger or addiction issues or if they are in love with their own independent behaviors they need to stop. Get help if necessary. If their spouse had identified that they have anger and control problems they need to believe what they hear and get help.

No matter what someone else does, losing one's temper, being judgmental, opinionated, or disrespectful is never ok. And, most people can't see when they are perpetrating those acts. There's a whole lot of entitlement that goes on - in a negative way.

I've had several clients that just couldn't get past this and who ended up being the force that destroyed the marriage - not the fact that their spouse had an affair or worked too much or was neglectful - it was the angry, entitlement, opinionated, judgmental attitude that made healing impossible.

At the same time, doing “whatever it takes” means learning to be honest in a way that is calm, courteous, and respectful. Not just honest about where they are and what they're doing, but honest about HOW THEY FEEL about the conditions of their lives.

Now, when I tell people this, they insist that they are/were honest and it didn't make a difference. But when I question them on their “honesty” what they say is, "I AM honest. I told him he was a lazy slob for sitting there in the chair watching football while I helped the kids with their homework and cleaned the kitchen. And if he didn't get his act together pretty soon I was just going to have to find a way to get my needs met without him."


Uhh. Yeah. That's not honesty. That's being rude. Honesty is all about you and only about you. And it's really not about what you think. I don't give a hoot if you ever tell your spouse what you think – honesty is about what you feel. Using words that describe emotions. Things like happy, sad, angry, frustrated.

I had a young couple insist that saying "I feel like you're being really stupid," was a feeling statement. It's not. It's an opinion. When I start working with people I make opinions about anything even closely related to their personal lives off limits. You can read a more in depth version of my Honesty Assignment **edit** . I expect people to be highly skilled at being able to do this.

When they can do that (and yes, one person can effect significant change by taking these two steps) then I want them to seriously hone their negotiating skills. Just being honest doesn't effect change all that much. So we add to that a request for change. This is the ability to move from the calm and courteous atmosphere you've created by your non demanding, non judgmental, honesty to asking for something different. Being honest is the first step in moving away from the point of view that your spouse is somehow doing something "wrong," towards the concept that s/he is involved in or doing something that is coming between you and hurting the marriage. Removing the judgment. Asking for change is the proactive next step that explicitly states that concept.

AND THEN - along with all that I'd like to see an understanding of the biochemistry of the different phases of the mating drive and how they pertain to where the couple is in their marriage. With that information you can focus on what needs to meet. If your spouse is having an affair, trying to meet the needs that fill romantic love receptors is going to be a futile pursuit. But there might be quite a bit of benefit to meeting attachment needs.

AND (yes there's more) deep personal changes need to occur as well. If you've been part of the epidemic of conflict avoidance you need to change that. The honesty assignment addresses it in part but when there is infidelity or other addiction then there are interventions that need to be made. There is a huge difference between protecting the marriage from the outside influence of a destructive situation and being afraid to upset your partner by making waves. One is crucial and the other is simply a way to stay in your own comfort zone and hide behind the idea of being nice.

I would expect someone to do these things when there is neglect, abuse, or infidelity. Long term for neglect - at LEAST two years of skilled application. Short term for infidelity - that's more of a case by case timing but I lean towards shorter is better. Rock the affair boat hard and then be in a strong and protected Protection Phase. There are biochemical reasons for that that which you can learn more about by reading Helen Fisher’s Why We Love.

In cases of control and abuse I would want to see firm boundaries set and maintained about the types of behavior that is acceptable. That might be as benign as walking away and refusing to engage in an argument (it really does take two to argue – engaging rewards the behavior). Or, maintaining boundaries might be as difficult and complex as calling the police and initiating a restraining order against someone.

That's the very minimum of what I would expect in terms of doing “whatever it takes.”

If you do those things within those time lines and your spouse still refuses to change (not the same as making change slowly) then I want you in Protection Phase with absolutely no contact for a minimum of 12 months. THEN we can talk about whether or not you've done everything possible.

Are you doing “whatever it takes” or are you stuck in the familiar comfort zone that doesn’t allow for making waves?

P

Noodle,

If that is true, then given all the people who rebuked him and turned away from him in the past you would expect that by now he would have repented.

But all it did was make him feel more rejected and more alone, and more distrustful of God adn people.


One of the consequences in this case is that he increasingly misses me and our daughter, and our life together.

And he sees that it was his own actions that caused us to be apart. He is his own worst enemy.

He is seeing that the exchange was not worth it- his freedom for his family.

If I am wrong, God will show me what to do . I have sought him on this many times, Noodle. I need to get this right.

If he tells me to give him up, shun him, I will. I trust God to know what is best. And this is about His agenda, not mine.


I have just talked to him on the phone.

I told him how I really feel- that mostly I am sad and frustrated that we aren't closer, and that I wish he could trust me more. He replied he is more open to me than anyone else.

I used lots of 'I' messages. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I told him also how great he was with our D last night, how he made her feel loved.

Where the conversation ended up was with him telling me a beautiful analogy to use for my sermon tomorrow.

Bizzare, huh?


Shul


Christ died for us while we were yet sinners .

spitting in the wind

<small>[ November 25, 2004, 12:58 AM: Message edited by: noodle ]</small>

pearls before swine

flogging a dead horse


I guess my problem with that argument is that
God reached out for me while I was lost, full of sin and self. Jesus went so far as to seek me out and die for me while I was filthy with sin, and the world had turned on me. I have been forgiven much. I am not in a position to cast stones.

We are to show the same measure of mercy that we have received.

Dear Shul,

it's a fine line between sacrifice and denial.
What will your H learn from you letting him use you at his convenience?
Will he not learn to hate himself more for taking advantage of you that way? For using you, then dumping you again and again? What sort of man does that?

If you want to be friendly towards him.. show him you love.. great. But agreeing to sex? Why? Just because he wants to?

Then why did Jesus chase those people from the temple? Why didn't he just say "hey, if that's what they need to do, I'm just going to love them and let them go ahead with it?"

Loving someone does NOT mean letting them get away with everything. That would grow a monster. IMHO, you need to set your boundaries. Even if you'll miss the intimacy yourself.

Another thing dear Shul..

You said: "The fact that I haven't done that (rejected him) in 19 years NO MATTER WHAT he has said or done, doesn't seem to compute."

I very much respect your efforts to help heal your H. But isn't it possible your actions have conflict avoidance written all over them? That it's not so much your love for your H, but your own fear of being rejected makes you agree to everything, while you don't feel too good about it afterwards?

I was like that. But setting your boundaries doesn't mean rejecting a person. Unless you think that you have to agree to everything to appease them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CSue:
<strong>
I think one reason I CA is because of the illusion of control. I pick and choose the conflict, the time, etc. Unfortunately I would also gunnysack all the conflict I avoided, then used it to justify "reacting" when I felt I was ready to attack. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Really excellent insight into your own inner working.... keep going with this vein.... you're onto something real about yourself.

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by brownhair:
<strong> Another thing dear Shul..

You said: "The fact that I haven't done that (rejected him) in 19 years NO MATTER WHAT he has said or done, doesn't seem to compute."

I very much respect your efforts to help heal your H. But isn't it possible your actions have conflict avoidance written all over them? That it's not so much your love for your H, but your own fear of being rejected makes you agree to everything, while you don't feel too good about it afterwards?

I was like that. But setting your boundaries doesn't mean rejecting a person. Unless you think that you have to agree to everything to appease them. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Shul... are you willing to change yourself to improve your quality of life... or are you going to continue to fixate on efforts to improve your H?

This is an act of pridefulness, you know, you think you have the right stuff, so you are going to"fix" what only God's Grace can fix... your H's problems are not yours, they belong to God and your H. Hands off.

You are not his Mommie, you are his partner. Trying to "fix" or "work on" you H's changes is HIGHLY disrespectful.

Your H has hurt. Much of it self-inflicted. Your actions are not deliberately hurtful toward your H ... and your H's actions are not deliberately hurtful toward you . You are both caught in a crucible where neither one of you will choose to make the SELF-CHANGES that breaks the crucible.

YOU do NOT have the power to fix him Shul. Your H will not be motivated to fix what is wrong with him until HE OWNS the problem. Your H will not own his problem as long as YOU own it for him.

YOU need to concentrate and work on YOUR OWN issues... I think that is what the years of failed attempts to fix your husband is saying.... God is calling you out on this.... You are focused outward.... when inward changes are being called for.

God may not be calling you for more patience... but for more decisive action and brave integrity for doing what you know is right.

Pep

<small>[ November 25, 2004, 10:41 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Cerri,

No, that wasn't it...This is really starting to bugggg! It was so well done. I think it was in a thread on SYMC..I've looked way back - but don't remember the thread title. I'll keep looking though.

I like the "doing whatever it takes". I feel so blessed that no only did my husband say it - he meant it and did it.

Pep, thanks for your support. You're right I feel like I'm on to a good thing with this CA stuff. This thread has been very helpful to airing it out. CA doesn't do well in the light of day!

It is in the little stuff..Caught myself CAing yesterday in fact. Seems to be in my case a reluctance to tell someone how I'm feeling, especially if it's an uncomfortable feeling...it has to do with staying comfortable being vulnerable which FEELS counter-intuitive. It is uncomfortable (doesn't feel safe) to be vulnerable in most cases.

One more comment/question about conflict avoidance:

It seems to me that there are a few different steps involved in being honest, forthright and direct about your feelings ie doing the opposite of CA (actually I am not sure, but I think CA is more common in most relationships than its healthy alternative)

they are

1) be willing to take a look at yourself and acknowledge your feeling at the time you're feeling it

2) be able to accurately describe it

3) have the courage to tell your S about it without attaching blame/anger/ridicule etc

THEN you need to have a S who can hear you state your feeling without taking it as blame/that they are automatically responsible etc.
On the other hand, if you have told your S your feeling, why you are feeling that way, and an action of your S is the reason you are feeling that way, you still need to have a S who cares enough to change.
It seems to me there is also a group of people (probably we're all guilty at some time or another) who are 'responsibility deniers' ie who ignore their S's feelings and requests for change even when they are stated in a perfect forthright and honest way, without judgement/blame etc. I guess its no guarantee, but then CA is definitely not going to change anything.

Am I missing something along the way?

Dear Pep and Brownhair,

I appreciate your insights, and I want you to know that I am listening.

I know very well that it is not me who is responsible for fixing him. It is God. But we are to be instruments of Gods love, of his peace.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What will your H learn from you letting him use you at his convenience?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How does us being intimate constitute him 'using me'? He has not insisted on anything. He has expressed a desire to be with me and I chose to respond. He has asked my permission every time. I am not compelled. I am attracted to him as I have always been. (Actually, it was the ow he was using). As far as I am concerned, his infidelity doesn't change my love for him. If he is conflicted, that is his problem- he owns it.

I don't use sex as a tool for manipulation.

This was never about him not wanting me, or not caring for me.It was not about me. It was about him and his search for something that can only be found in relationship with God.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...why did Jesus chase those people from the temple? Why didn't he just say "hey, if that's what they need to do, I'm just going to love them and let them go ahead with it?"..
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is comparing apples with oranges.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Loving someone does NOT mean letting them get away with everything.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not his parent. He is free to do as he pleases, just as I am. I don't wish to control him.

But lets look at this. What has he 'gotten away' with?
An example might be Israel. God told them that if they trusted him and obeyed his rules, they would be blessed. And they were. God delighted in blessing them.
But they, like us, thought the grass looked greener on the other side and they went away from God. They chose to ignore the rules he has given them for their own good, and they might have had a good time at first, but they suffered harm in the long run as a result. When things started to go wrong they turned to idols, and they could dance around idols all day, but nothing would happen . They eventually found themselves in deep trouble.
It was not that God was punishing them-God was not responsible for their suffering. It came about as a result of departing from him. He was offering them good things, but they were not able to receive them. They only had peace and success when they remained in his care, and obeyed his instructions.

God held out his hands all day to a rebellious people, the Bible says. Their suffering was a natural consequence of being away from him.

In the same way, my husband departed from me, and as a result he is missing out on the thing he wants more than anything-a family to love and be loved by. More importantly he is outside of Gods will, and he has suffered because of it. The god of this world cannot satisfy him. He is finding that out. Just like Israel when they worshipped idols.
Jesus didn't tell us to withhold love- we are commanded to love one another.
If my husband comes to me I show him love. If he doesn't, he misses out. I am offering my love, but he is only able to receive it in a limited way- because of his own choices.

He is gradually coming to see that his choices have caused grief to him and to us. He has no peace.
I am here with open arms. My love is a constant. If he chooses not to be with me, it is his choice and his loss.

Whatever the reason, he is increasingly choosing to spend more time with us, and very little time with ow.

He is showing the fruit of repentance by spending time with his D, and in other ways.

For most of our marriage we were a house divided, and I won't go back to that. There is no point.

Having my husband back is not my first agenda- it is to see him reconciled to God.

That is why I have not pursued him.
I have not turned him away, but I am not always available now when he might want me. I work and do other things. God has first place in my life; my first commitment is to him.

I pray for a time when we will be partners, committed to serving God together, both on the same page, as it were.

Shul