I did not say I was without blame....but you still seem to indicate that it is the OW's fault...and are displacing the blame from the MM...

Dear Jojo....little of this has nothing to do with blame...

can't change a thing in the past...
you know it..you're not stupid...you're an intelligent person...

but even in seeking real life counseling which is certainly advocated by this site...

there is nothing you can do about the married man...
his actions
his choices
his deceptions
his onus of responsibility of causing pain...

not a thing you or anyone can do to change it...
so the not focusing on the married man...is not based on some blame throwing weapon aimed at you...

the not focusing on the married man....is because he is not here posting ...
and we all gotta figure out to make you feel and get better inspite of ANYTHING married has or hasn't done....

this is all about you...
which is not equal to blame...though facing ourselves is tough, painful and scary...

believe me jojo...the same applies to the BS that comes here and wants to just focus on the bad things the Waywards is has done...

we can't fix a thing there..
but we can work on the persons actions and response...even inspite of the feelings...

we know you are hurting..

the only way to heal is to face the hurt...
straight on....
and come through it a totally different person...

one that could never and would never again go down such a dark path that brings so much pain to so many...especially yourself...

ARK

Liny & Ark,

Thanks for your input. I do hope jojo and others in their sitch reads and appreciates the effort you both made to help someone who is in more need than they realize. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I am now also concerned for her H. If her anger is this strong towards us, wonder how is it with her H? Is he getting blamed also? She didn't say either way and well for this one 'ol MBer, it made me wonder.

Liny, thank you for sticking your neck out and posting here. I can certainly see progress on your part and appreciate your time and effort to help others.

Ark, thanks for being there also. I never doubt your posts and they usually make me smile. We have come a long ways, haven't we. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

jojo if by chance you are reading this, I hope you can see it is not just my opinions here. Others can see and give their viewpoints also. May the words here help you and your family heal. The oM and his family have to heal on their own.

One thing I learned here is that we can't teach the WS and OP much.....not at the beginning, but when they choose to stop being a WS and OP, then there is a chance. I can't help PBR (OW in my case) because she is still a nutcase and I personally don't want to help her (yep, my choice) but I can help my xws (in fact he is now an H <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ). Why? Because he choose to give up that title and START ACTING like an H.

I tell you what, in our case when H starts acting like a Ws or even an xws, he gets plan B immediately. Already been there done that before...... now this piece I am giving you from personal experience. So from a BS perspective, it does matter where my spouse is in his personal recovery.

L.

***I think that people who want to blame the OW don't understand the real issues with their own relationships, causing the Man to stray in the first place***

This is easy for an OP to say. That way, it's really the betrayed spouse's fault that the poor WS was pushed into looking elsewhere to get what they need.

Two things wrong with this:
1)Sure, plenty of relationships do have serious problems and no one is getting their needs met. But going outside the relationship is the one thing guaranteed to make it worse. That's why there is never any excuse for doing so.

2) Plenty of WSs have good and loving relationships at home. They just don't see any reason to deny themselves a treat whenever the BS is not around. They honestly feel that as long as things are good at home, they are entitled to have some extra on the side because "it's not going to hurt anything." These are the people who want both a spouse *and* a dating partner, and just don't see why that should be a problem for anybody.

Either way is a horribly selfish way to approach a marriage, and neither one will work for long.

I do think that affairs fall into either one category or the other, and I think they may need different approaches by the BS. Maybe some of the experienced MB posters could comment on this.
thanks
Mulan

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LINY:
Go ahead, BS': take your 2x4's out to me. Pep, you can be first, my dear. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I just saw this.. and I am nonplussed.

Know what LINY ... I am not interested. I decided to leave you alone. Please leave me alone as well. Thank you.

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LINY:
Go ahead, BS': take your 2x4's out to me. Pep, you can be first, my dear. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I just saw this.. and I am nonplussed.

Know what LINY ... I am not interested. I decided to leave you alone. Please leave me alone as well. Thank you.

Pep </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pep,

Not sure all the background that led to your response....so with that thought aside, r u upset @ Liny? I recall issues in the past but I thought he was making strides and has improved?

Catch me up, when you all can, ok?

This board has been taking quite a beating lately. Maybe I started it - LOL!!! But now someone wants to ban ML from posting to another MBer for saying azz, what's this world coming too?!?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I told my loving SIL (the one who still talks to me - the 2 others don't because I choose NOT to enable their A's or be manipulated by them - long story but I do practice what I write)......anyways, I gave ML's response about using the word azz in her post and she cracked up laughing. See she had just had a similar convo with her younger sister who was babbling the same kind of logic. Hm..... I wonder???? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Anyway, it seems like to me Liny was trying to lighten things up a bit and not attack your reputation. You have a strong character and have been a good supporter to many.

Whatever it is, I know we can work past it. ok? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hugz,
L.

Implying that angry BS verbally beat him up instead of JoJo ... and Pep goes first...

No thank you. Not interested.

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong> Implying that angry BS verbally beat him up instead of JoJo ... and Pep goes first...

No thank you. Not interested.

Pep </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pep,

Not to rub salt on the wound but you know us here @ MB, we find meeting our issues head on brings results quicker hit & run or conflict avoiding, eh? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

So I went back and read Liny's post again and copied kinda around those comments you referred to.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LINY:
<strong> ....You're also here, on MB. A good start. "Put one foot in front of the other." OK. Don't sing the next line, but, it's a step. You know, 'can't run without walking.'

You're also very defensive. You know what? Good too. You're actually thinking.

Go ahead, BS': take your 2x4's out to me. Pep, you can be first, my dear. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I say this, because now her A is brought to the concious world of jojo's being. Sure, maybe, according to jojo, but it's rearing, now isn't it? All of these emotions that were being felt during your A, all filtered into the excitement of whatever. Where do these feelings go? It's not a stop/start switch. Let 'em go, jojo. Just start directing them in the right place.

Speaking of directing...Jojo...stop trying to point--didn't your mother ever tell you, "It's not polite to point?" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Blame vs. choice. Don't confuse the two. ... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe it's his delivery style but I didn't take it as if angry BS verbally beat us the WS (though that's a thought - LOL!!! - just kidding).

What I see is Liny trying to show jojo some of her positive steps and then try to get her to see where her negative attitude is hindering her recovery.

The fog is thick in her neck of the woods yet she thinks she is walking a straight path.

I took his statement more in jest than as against you. Am I wrong? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

L.

Orchid, thank you for the kind words and going to bat for me. No, I didn't mean any disrespect to pep and appreciate you actually seeing signs of life from me again. Like I just wrote in a thread I posted for pep, besides my W first and foremost, I hurt/decived/however-you-want-to-say-it people here as well. You included. I don't take pride in that fact. I do take pride in the fact I am recovering. No more lies.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Maybe it's his delivery style but I didn't take it as if angry BS verbally beat us the WS (though that's a thought - LOL!!! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If anything orchid, I deserve every bit of it! That, really, was my point.


Jojo...I can even use these past few posts/threadjack as even an example of how many people are hurt with continued deception.

LINY

<small>[ November 27, 2004, 05:03 PM: Message edited by: LINY ]</small>